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No Attachments, No Interest My beef with the PT

#31 User is offline   ion eon Icon

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 08:27 PM

quote]Actually, the only two movies that dont have any flaws at all are A new hope and the empire strikes back.[/quote]

and The Phantom Menace dry.gif
OH NO!!!
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#32 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 01 June 2006 - 07:14 PM

I'd suggest going from a cool name like Star Wars to the wimpshit "A New Hope" is a reason to hate it.
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#33 User is offline   Harmonica Icon

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Posted 01 June 2006 - 08:42 PM

Don't you mean going from a cool name like Star Wars to "Star Wars: Episode IV: A New Hope: Special edition: Theatrical Version 4: Three-Dimensional:The Final Version: Part 2: I Really Mean It This Time (At Least Until I Feel Like Another Unnecessary Revision Next Week)"?

After all, that fits in with Lucas's real vision of Star Wars: Episodes I-VI: The Revenge of the Colons. Tagline: Milking It For All Its Worth And More, Suckers
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#34 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 01 June 2006 - 10:25 PM

QUOTE (Harmonica @ Jun 1 2006, 08:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Don't you mean going from a cool name like Star Wars to "Star Wars: Episode IV: A New Hope: Special edition: Theatrical Version 4: Three-Dimensional:The Final Version: Part 2: I Really Mean It This Time (At Least Until I Feel Like Another Unnecessary Revision Next Week)"?

After all, that fits in with Lucas's real vision of Star Wars: Episodes I-VI: The Revenge of the Colons. Tagline: Milking It For All Its Worth And More, Suckers

I stand corrected.
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#35 User is offline   Jedi_1138 Icon

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 07:38 PM

Unfortunately, a very good point, Harmonica.

However, back to subject...
May I add some more questionable scenes?

When Luke finds the dead bodies of the family who raised him, it's no reason to join the dark side. He just joins Ben Kenobi on a 'foolish crusade'.
When Luke tells Han that they have to free the princess because they're going to terminate her Han replys with: "Better her then me!"
Yet, he joins Luke...
(The following exchange on the mike between Han and some unknown Imperial officer is one of the funiest dialoges in SW...ever! biggrin.gif )

And of course, Han returns (in the most convinent moment) to the battle of Yavin.

In TESB, Han tries to rescue his buddy Luke despite the chances. ("See you in hell.")

And now, Luke shouldn't have tried to save his friends? People who have risked their own lifes to save his?
It doesn't make him noble or honourable to me.

And in RotJ? Well...he (and the rest of the party!) just walk into the lions den to rescue Han. I liked that, I have to admit. Would it have the same emotional impact it Luke didn't have any attachments to Han, Leia and Chewie? I think not.

And now lets see what Anakin does.
His attachments to his mom (sig!) does seem to get him into trouble from day one. Given that scenario, the Jedi shouldn't have get Luke and Leia getting any attachments at all.
Later, he falls in love with a woman. Wow, that's strange.

When the sandpeople kill his mom, he kills all the sandpeople of the village. ("They're like ewoks...and I killed them like ewoks." Ok, maybe I made that up. biggrin.gif ")
Does Luke ever go on a venegance driven killing? No, he doesn't.
("Vader...you killed Obi Wan. And now I am going to kill you like an ewok" anyone?)
He tries to rescue Han and Leia. He fails. Yeah...sith happens.

And in RotJ? He starts a fight, but after that, he realizes his mistake. Then he tries to stop the fight. ("I won't fight you, father!") From that point on, all of his movements are defensive (sp).

And Anakin? "I will be powerful enough to stop people from dying. Especially Padme."
20 Minutes later, he force choces her almost to death.

Maybe it's just me, but I realize a difference in the pattern here.
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#36 User is offline   miladyblue Icon

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 06:28 PM

QUOTE
Maybe it's just me, but I realize a difference in the pattern here.


So did I. George Lucas lost his mind somewhere between the end of ESB and the 1990s, when he started working on the PT.

To play devil.gif advocate, maybe this is why the Jedi Order failed so spectacularly? They failed to understand or empathize with others, and thus, were completely blindsided by something from the real world biting them on the ass? Had this never happened before, that a member could possibly fall in love, and thus be vulnerable to things like worry?

Yoda's little speech about don't miss them and don't grieve for someone who is now one with the Force was incomplete - had he chosen to stretch his philosophy a little more, he might have been able to offer comfort, such as "They who have gone before you will always be with you, and thus, are not truly gone." Or something like that. As it was, one of Hayden's good moments in the film came about that way, the look on his face saying it plainly, "Oh, thanks for the comfort, asshole!"

I am with Chefelf, it served that pack of stupid, unfeeling bastards right.

The differences between Luke (OT) and Anakin (PT) are staggering. The main difference is that Luke was a grown man, with an adult perspective and a solid moral compass. Gruff though Owen could be, he did love his "nephew" and passed his values on. So much for "too old" to train. Though somewhat immature by adult standards, Luke certainly had his shit together MUCH better than Anakin did.

Anakin was taken from his mother after a really rough upbringing (slavery) and had no idea how to deal with either grief or loss (leaving his mother, who was still enslaved) or with the sudden freedom. There was no structure for him, going from a piece of property (I'm a person - my ass! He was Watto's slave, Watto's PROPERTY) to suddenly emancipated. Too much freedom, too soon, without intelligent guidance, yeah, he's going to be a twit.

The only Jedi who showed him any warmth or guidance was Qui Gon, and he got kacked by Darth Maul shortly thereafter. Obi Wan sure didn't seem to have a clue about how to show genuine emotional interest, or how to guide a child through a difficult time. It might even have been a valuable lesson for Obi Wan to learn, (not to mention the other Jedi) to care for some ONE rather than the cold, sterile Jedi code. The Jedi locked themselves up in their lofty, ivory tower, and patted themselves smugly on the back for their superiority. They were all answers and no heart.

One of the main critiques I remember reading about the biggest flaw of TPM was that the Jedi did NOT do anything to help Anakin get over the loss of his mother. A little grief counseling, or maybe someone to keep tabs on Shmi, and pass the information to him, would not have been too much trouble for a powerful order like the Jedi, would it?

Chefelf had a good point about Shmi's situation; A powerful and influential order like the Jedi could not have found a way to free her? She could have worked in the temple archives, as an assistant to the stuffy librarian from AotC. Or she could have been a janitor. Who knows? The point is, they knew the kid was pining for his mother, and could not have cared less. What about Naboo? "We owe you everything." Yeah, but they could not give him a loan or grant to buy mommy's freedom? Maybe that line was incomplete? "We owe you everything, but due to having to rebuild our planet, you'll have to settle for Padme/Amidala when you're old enough."

I don't wonder Palpatine was able to turn everyone against the Jedi so quickly. "What, get rid of those smug, unfeeling bastards in that huge temple? No problem!" Of course, I still wonder how such a cackling idiot was able to hold on to supreme power throughout the galaxy as long as he did.

******************************

I also wonder at George's sanity, the message of the PT being that love should be avoided. WTF? Love leads to heartbreak, madness, evil and death. Gads, what mythology did that come from? Unrequited love was always the danger, or love scorned or love ignored. I wonder what Joseph Campbell would have to say about the PT?

Anakin loved his mother and Padme, and all he got for it was a leather suit and breathing apparatus that forever made him sound like he was making obscene phone calls.

Luke loved his aunt, uncle, Leia, Han, Chewie and various others in the OT. He literally risked his life, sanity, and going over to the dark side to save them and he got to refound the Jedi Order. In fact, it was his love for those friends who brought him back from the brink of the dark side of the Force. Since he does not have much of the history of the idiotic practices of the Jedi Order, it would be interesting, were George to rediscover his storytelling ability, to see what Luke could possibly create with other Jedi. I'd bet that he would not have that dipshit crappola about no attachments, and taking young children from their families for training in a cold, unfeeling order.

I have read some of the EU novels, and gave up, because it always seemed that there was yet ANOTHER all powerful enemy of the New Republic that had to be defeated by the skin of their teeth, or one of principal characters (Leia, Han, Chewie, Luke) was kidnapped and used as a hostage to fulfill some dispshit demand or other.
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#37 User is offline   Gerhard Icon

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 09:28 PM

QUOTE (miladyblue @ Jun 19 2006, 12:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
To play devil.gif advocate, maybe this is why the Jedi Order failed so spectacularly? They failed to understand or empathize with others, and thus, were completely blindsided by something from the real world biting them on the ass? Had this never happened before, that a member could possibly fall in love, and thus be vulnerable to things like worry?


I see your point, but IIRC the Jedi Order brought peace for the galaxy for a 1000 years (BTW a 1000 years basead on what planet?) So it is unlikely their "no attachment" policy was wrong, unless it's because there were no sith's. I don't know, I think the main background for the Jedi Order plot to fall is so weak that it's not even worith thinking about it cool.gif
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#38 User is offline   Jedi_1138 Icon

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 03:40 PM

QUOTE
Luke loved his aunt, uncle, Leia, Han, Chewie and various others in the OT. He literally risked his life, sanity, and going over to the dark side to save them and he got to refound the Jedi Order. In fact, it was his love for those friends who brought him back from the brink of the dark side of the Force. Since he does not have much of the history of the idiotic practices of the Jedi Order, it would be interesting, were George to rediscover his storytelling ability, to see what Luke could possibly create with other Jedi. I'd bet that he would not have that dipshit crappola about no attachments, and taking young children from their families for training in a cold, unfeeling order.


Yeah, hope springs eternal. Just in case Lucas finds his story telling ability again, that is...

Maybe you're right, myladyblue. Proabably the Jedi failled so badly, because the only Jedi who seemed to gave a damn about another being was killed by Maul. But even given that...even he doesn't seem to worry about Shmi at all.
Maybe they where so superhuman that they forgot to be human at all.

QUOTE
I have read some of the EU novels, and gave up, because it always seemed that there was yet ANOTHER all powerful enemy of the New Republic that had to be defeated by the skin of their teeth, or one of principal characters (Leia, Han, Chewie, Luke) was kidnapped and used as a hostage to fulfill some dispshit demand or other.

*Sniker* I hear ya.

@Gerhard
Yes, you're right. But not caring about the failure of the Jedi, wouldn't that be like not caring about the PT?
Oh, wait, did I just type that?
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#39 User is offline   Gerhard Icon

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 07:22 PM

QUOTE (Jedi_1138 @ Jun 19 2006, 09:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
@Gerhard
Yes, you're right. But not caring about the failure of the Jedi, wouldn't that be like not caring about the PT?
Oh, wait, did I just type that?


It's funny people might think that, If we don't like a movie, why spend so much time bashing about it?

The answer , in my case, is just because the PT movies are so bad that are an insult to the OT. Also the feeling of a missing chance to do at least a set of respectable movies was lost.

And the constant changes in our beloved OT to suit continuity issues with the PT is even more of a reason to bash about the PT Movies biggrin.gif
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#40 User is offline   miladyblue Icon

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 08:20 PM

QUOTE
The answer , in my case, is just because the PT movies are so bad that are an insult to the OT. Also the feeling of a missing chance to do at least a set of respectable movies was lost.


I can certainly understand that feeling myself, Gerhard. MY main gripe was that as a fan of the classic trilogy, teasers were put out that made the PT seem like the OT, only better. It was hyped up SO much to fans of the OT, and to potential new fans that the horror that was delivered upon us is that much more insulting and disappointing. It's kind of like anticipating going to your favorite restaurant, and ending up with a bargain brand TV dinner.

I was expecting FAR more of the Jedi order from the subtle hints Obi Wan gave in the OT. " For over a thousand generations, they were the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy."

Then the PT comes out, and it only makes everyone wonder how could such idiots have lasted a thousand seconds, let alone a "thousand generations," however long that might truly have been?
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#41 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 08:27 PM

QUOTE (Gerhard @ Jun 19 2006, 07:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The answer , in my case, is just because the PT movies are so bad that are an insult to the OT. Also the feeling of a missing chance to do at least a set of respectable movies was lost.

And the constant changes in our beloved OT to suit continuity issues with the PT is even more of a reason to bash about the PT Movies biggrin.gif

The answers are universally stacked against fans of the originals. It's not a coincidence the fervant feel this way. sad.gif
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#42 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 08:41 PM

Whew. Where to start with all of this. The first problem is accepting anything from the PT AT ALL. It only serves to confuse and make prior concepts themes muddled and imperfect.

If Lucas set out to make the Jedi unsympathetic creeps, he certainly accomplished it, and makes me not root for them one bit, so if I watch the movies chronologically, I can not care one whit whether there is a "Return of the Jedi" or not. Pheh. Why not just let the whole PT Jedi philosophy die out with Luke...

...however, those are brilliant insights, MiladyBlue.

As for Lucas and how he treats "attachments" and women, actually, in his PT's is probably very indicative of his personal trauma of his divorce. Look at the OOT, Leia is strong, decisive, capable, and likeable.

In the PT. Padme isn't. She's a rather confusing character. At times she's only a pale shadow of Leia, and at other times, she's meek and stupid.

I would've liked the PT better if all that becomes of Vader comes out of choices rather than an environment that set him up. It's like a lot of the excuses made for criminals today. "It was only INEVITABLE became a criminal, look at the environment he was raised/lived in..."

The OOT is better because what becomes of Luke isn't about the environment he was raised in... in fact, his life wasn't all that cherry. Isolated, somewhat mentally (verbally?) abused by his Uncle, said uncle and aunt died brutally, etc.... like you said, these are some good reasons to go dark side. It's all about choice. Luke didn't.

In the PT, it seems like Anakin had NO choice BUT to go to evil, and to me, that is not good story-telling. Anytime we learn of a serial killer, we want to know HOW, WHY, etc. At some point they had to make a choice to be what they are.

With Anakin it's just a foregone conclusion.

Hope I made sense.
Flying Ferret

Battle for the Galaxy--read the "other Star Wars"

All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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#43 User is offline   georgelucas4greedo Icon

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 10:17 AM

QUOTE (CowboyCurtis @ Jun 19 2006, 09:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The OOT is better because what becomes of Luke isn't about the environment he was raised in... in fact, his life wasn't all that cherry. Isolated, somewhat mentally (verbally?) abused by his Uncle,



Great post....but I love this quote. It reminds me of the Star Wars Gangsta Rap..."Luke get ya' ass over here!"
It seems like everyone is over the nitpicking. Too bad.
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#44 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 07:49 PM

i don't how many of you here are 'just shoot me' fans...

but there's an episode with george lucas in it... he shows up at the end.
during the episode, eliot (the photographer) complains to Jack (the boss) that his work deserves more recognition as does he, as a great photography, so jack gives him complete freedom and unlimited budget to proove that without limmitation he's completely usless...

i wonder if that was intentional... as a parallel there for georgy boy...

it all went wrong for george when people took restrictions off him.
when concept restrictions were removed, we got ewoks...
when SFX restrictions were removed we got lava surfing...

the man has a wonderful imagination, but he needs guidlines because there is too much about story telling and human interatction and science that he just doesn't understand.
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#45 User is offline   Jedi_1138 Icon

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 02:07 PM

Well, yes, GL sureley has unlearned a lot.
I am not so sure about the science thing, but I would have liked to see some motivation of the characters.
It's just like Cowboy Curtis said: Anakin HAD to become a mass murdere, so we can forgive him cause hes not responsible. AND he's still cute enough to make Padmé fall in love with him.

And Padmé herself is sort of hot because...oh, well, because she's portraied by a hot actress. Not that Padmé goes through much, but, hey - at least shes the mom of Luke and Leia.

I don't know if his divorce had much to do with the changes George Lucas did to the overall concept. But to be honest, I don't care much. If you add another chapter to a story that you have started telling over 20 years ago, you should cling to the rules you established back then.

Maybe we would have had actually a better PT if he still had some restrictions? Or at least better co-writers?
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