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Bustin' on ROTJ Yes, it IS a good film.

#46 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 09:02 PM

QUOTE (Vwing @ Mar 12 2004, 12:45 PM)
Also barend, the ewoks didn't win. As I've pointed out time and time again, they would have lost over time. By commandering the AT-ST, Chewie turned the tide, so really he and not the Ewoks won the battle. The Ewoks fought valiantly and distracted the Imperials for a time, but it was Chewie who really won the battle.

yes, but what was all that bullshit with logs (they didn't have the muscle or time to set that shit up) and throwing rocks at storm trooper armour should do shit, save make an annoying sound!!!!

QUOTE (mike mac @ NYU)
The Ewoks...  ...represent the concept that a low tech society that may be considered primative could defeat a high-tech army. Much similar to historical examples {the Barabarians vs the Romans, the Ethiopians vs the Mussolini army, the Viet-Cong vs the US. Army).


1.the barbarians we're big germanic psychos!
2.the Itallians for most count's were pussys (no offense to any italians, I'm just forwarding a much said opinionated genralization that i did not author, I'm just using to unfairly proove my point)
3.viet cong had tunnels, jungle experiene, army intelligence, and were greatly underestemated for wearing uniforms that looked like pijamas by the very loud and unsubtle, unprepared, inexperienced (jungle-wise), disorganised american army!!! (the only thing hi-tech the americans had over the viet cong was the m-16, but the AK-47 was not what I would call low-tech as such.
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#47 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 09:26 PM

I could argue points forever with you guys, But my schedule is getting busy as of late.{ Especially in about three months!!! blink.gif } Will have to leave the forum for a little while. I'll flit in and out occasionally, to parry with Civilian, Ferris and post some more messages.

"May the force be wih you" : smile.gif
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#48 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 09:29 PM

Yeah, and let's not forget that the Romans killed barbarians usually 20-1 (the last stand of Boudica was an embarrassing rout), the Viet Cong lost to the US about 10-1 or more, and the Ethiopians lost to the Italians.

The Roman Empire fell for other reasons, the US pulled out under domestic pressure, and the Italians changed sides.

The Ewoks did not have the time needed to set up their elaborate defences, but who cares? it was a device Lucas liked, the primitive vs the technological. "Later" he'd apply it, with ludicrous results, the battle of Naboo.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 14 March 2004 - 09:29 PM

"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#49 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 10:29 PM

Yeah I agree about the Battle of Naboo, it wasn't even like primitive BEAT technological there. It was saying that primitive didn't beat technological, but they got lucky because a kid accidentally flew into the docking bay of the control ship (what happened to the shield around it by the way? At least in ROTJ they explained that the shield had been destroyed and it was logical that he could get through the defenses, in this he just flies in without anything hitting him), and blew it up, disabling all of the droids. Just really stupid, and doesn't even convey the primitive vs. technological message that he was supposedly trying to demonstrate.
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#50 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 10:45 PM

At no point in the Phantom Menace/attack of clones did I ever think the good guys were in serious trouble. Those droids are just not to be taken seriously.

The storm Trooper was a bit more menacing, but not much. Lucas should have put more evil into them. That is a problem with most action movies. You never really feel like the bad guys are all that competent.

It's easy to find great HEROS, but great VILLAINS are next to impossible. And even harder to find is a good villain army. They're always just cannon fodder designed to up the kill count of the hero.

The scene when that ewok was hitting the Storm Trooper in the head was just stupid. Imperial armor apparently cannot even withstand the force of a rock being used by a creature with an arm length of 11 inches.

It made the threat in ROTJ to be less evident.

Primitive over Tech is just stupid. Because 9/10 I'm sure the Primitive culture would loose.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 14 March 2004 - 10:47 PM

Oh SMEG. What the smeggity smegs has smeggins done? He smeggin killed me. - Lister of Smeg, space bum
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#51 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 11:44 PM

I forgot to add that in ESB the Empire did seem menacing.
Oh SMEG. What the smeggity smegs has smeggins done? He smeggin killed me. - Lister of Smeg, space bum
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#52 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 14 March 2004 - 11:46 PM

and how strong could they throw a spear?

also the storm troopers may have been more intimidating if they hit a target once in a while.

besides which, a human who is against you because he belives in the otherside and chooses not to be reasoned with, and attacks you because he hates or at least disagrees with you, is much more terrifying than a spindly robot who is programmed to attack, but also has memory wasted on software they makes them quirky...
"rodger, rodger, that doen't compute... er.. you're under arrest!"
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#53 User is offline   Ferris Wiel Icon

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Posted 15 March 2004 - 01:09 PM

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To Ferris Weil-

  I would love to give you a full detailed opinion on your concept idea {my wife is 6 months pregnant and I have to take her for her sonogram in a few minutes} But I just have to give you some tidbits.


I appreciate feedback, so this will prove helpful, even if what I'm doing is just a hobby.

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Pretty impressive, Ferris Weil. Lucas should hire you to screenwrite Episode III. tongue.gif


I am such a poor judge of sarcasm, but I believe you're being sincere as you were pretty straightforward about my version of EpI. So, thank you.

Actually, though, I'm afraid without any prior experience I'd be so baffled by the finer points of interpersonals/character dev and dialogue that my version would turn out just as poorly. Then again, perhaps I should try to write an actual script before I dismiss myself.

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Are you Timothy Zahn in real life wink.gif ?


No, I wish. When I was a kid I wanted to be a sci-fi writer and I actually tried to pen my own Thrawn prequel story because I thought the character was so brilliant. As a matter of fact, I liked him better than the regular cast.

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Your idea sounds a lot like one of Timothy Zahn's Star Wars novels in tone and complexity. While I thought Timothy Zahn's trilogy sequel was good, it lacked the fantasy and emotional core that is so essential to Star Wars. Zahn's novels are a "Tom Clancy"-fication of the Star Wars novel. They concentrateon the war conflict and the strategies and politics behind the war. The Jedi elements and the personal development are secondary. Sort of what your concept idea is. {Which is not a bad thing, just not my preference} Read Dark Force Rising by Timothy Zahn and compare it to "The Courtship of Princess Leia" (I forget the author} to see what I mean.


Dave Wolverton. That's funny, because before I read Zahn I was under the impression that Star Wars was over but afterward it re-ignited my interest in the series. It still stands in my opinion as the best trilogy and having the most interesting new characters.

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Now on to my critique.


By all means.

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1. Your new character of Admiral Gormas.  What two failures by Vader? The first death Star? That was more Moff Tarkins fault. Vader apparently was given more power in ESB since he is now controlling the Imperial Fleet. He finds the rebel hideout when Admiral Ozzel doesn't. He kills Ozzel and puts a better admiral in Piett in charge. Plus he destroys the rebel base and sets the rebellion back in progress. Why wouldn't the Emperor be pleased at Vader?


The failures of Vader: (I'm looking at these from the perspective of the Emperor, and not from the long-range perspective of the present audience)
1. Incapable of destroying the Rebels on Hoth: We're talking fish in a barrel, here. He had a good, solid military force and he was intricately involved in the management of the Admirals aboard the individual ships. He didn't delegate authority properly and as a result suffered a loss. Setbacks are never enough for the Rebellion, they have a habit of rebuilding. Instead of a simple clean sweep operation, they had to waste resources and time and ultimately, it would cost them.
2. Failure to recover Luke Skywalker: This was a task directly assigned by the Emperor, if Vader couldn't even bring back a simple farmboy then there were bigger problems.

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And why be impressed with some new Admiral we've never seen until now. Especially when two imperial Admirals failed so miserably. I can't see the Emperor even considering a non-Sith to share Vader's power or to be his right hand man.
  Plus, you now have to introduce Admiral Gormas as a charcter and show why he is in favor with the emperor. Charcter development of a minor character. Might take away some valuable screen time that will be needed for other things. {see my "Unnecessary Characters " post on this forum}


Well, this was something I left out. The opening sequence would involve a Star Destroyer cruising along by itself and out of nowhere three wings of X-Wings, Y-Wings and A-Wings accompanied by two Rebel capital ships would attack. The interior of the ship would show that claxons were going off, and general chaotic business was occurring, but the Admiral would be calm and collected. Most attention would turn to him, he would nod, murmur a few things to an aide who would disappear, issue three or four commands and the tide of the space battle would turn dramatically after a small wing of TIEs was released from the underbelly of the Destroyer. The overcoming of these overwhelming odds would be a "show don't tell" situation that would prove he was no ordinary foe for the Alliance.

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    I would say that the Gormas character and the power struggle while interesting, is really not that vital to the story. Your probably best, simply leaving out the Gormas character or simply reducing his importance. {Besides, I think this power struggle idea was covered in the book "Shadows of the Empire" the intermediary between ESB and ROTJ}


In a way, you're right. I thought it would prove an interesting subplot, but it may just be too much anyway. At this point Vader should be pretty well consumed with tracking Skywalker and Palpy should be more interested in keeping tabs on Vader and his potential for treachery. So, you're right. Thank God for editing.

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2. Jabba the Hut as a an ordinary human. I hate this idea on so many levels. Making Jabba the Hut human is kinda of like making Darth Vader into a handsome englishman in dark clothing and a sinister voice. Or like making Yoda into full sized old man in white robes. You see where I am going with this? Your concept of Jabba the Hutt lacks imagination, and is wasted opportunity for special effects. If your going to use this concept of Jabba the Hutt at least make him look like an alien {maybe a serpent like guy with a human torso and snake like tail}. Anything but a regular human.


Hmm. I don't know. I like Jabba as a human. I don't think that he needs to be an alien to appear threatening and I thought the slug was plain silly. I am looking at this from the perspective of making a film in 1983, too. Perhaps just a creepy looking human, or maybe even a distinguished looking older gentleman - or even maybe Vincent Price to keep with Lucas' idea in the first film with Peter Cushing. By the way, the whole "bonk on the head" thing I decided to toss out a while ago, but didn't remove it from the outline.

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Also, remember Jabba the Hutt's name had been passing around the first two movies like a spector. Who was this man that Han feared? The man who was so obsessed with killing Han, that he was willing to send a bounty hunter to kill him on Ord Mantell. We are all expecting a dramatic introduction to this character. Your concept doesn't provide us with that. ROTJ IMO, did a good job of showing and given us a dramatic and consistant portrait of who Jabba was. The portrait of Jabba by the way is very true of gangsters. The Mob is not ruled by active enforcers, but instead by older, out of shape men who have the authority and control to kill people. The don't move because they don't have to they have enough authority over assasins to be feared on their own {Remember Paul Sorvino's character in Goodfellas. Not really an active guy is he? Would you spit in his face though? I would think not} Jabba is a crime lord, NOT an enforcer!!!


Yeah, but just because somebody is infamous, it doesn't mean he is inherently evil. I mean, looking at Jabba's history, he obviously was close with Han. And I think he had a right to be pissed off and send hunters after Han when the smuggler failed to settle his debts after 3 years. I agree that he shouldn't be too active by any stretch, just powerful and quiet. But with a good sense of humor.

There is plenty more I will post later.

I hope so.

Still a good idea, Ferris.  smile.gif

Thanks. That means quite a bit.

--FW
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#54 User is offline   Ferris Wiel Icon

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Posted 15 March 2004 - 01:58 PM

QUOTE
Sorry, Ferris.  I had to stop reading when I saw that Han was going to square off in a duel with Boba Fett.  What we want is a sequel that is different from ROTJ, not one that is more or ess the same thing.  Sounded like you had some good stuff going with the new villain; I will probably go back later to read it.


Well, at least he didn't end up a belch or fart joke. I liked the idea. I would appreciate if you read the rest, though. If you have any suggestions for an alternative they would be appreciated, by the way.

QUOTE
Didn't like Han being blind after the carbonite.  Since ... well, that's exactly what Lucas did!  Is ths really an alternate screenplay, or the sme thing with subtle variation.  ...  again, probably it goes somewhere completely different.  I'll red it another time.


My idea was to keep the less annoying elements of ROTJ, pretending like I was working with Lucas the way Kasdan might. It's probably due for an edit/overhaul, since it's been over a year since I wrote it.

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Making Jabba the Hut human is kinda of like making Darth Vader into a handsome englishman in dark clothing and a sinister voice.


Or, it's like taking off Vader's helmet and he's this soft-spoken Englishman withut a hint of his old evil self. Or it's like making Vader a little kid who yells "yippee!"

Excellent point, Civ. I don't appreciate Lucas' use of Anakin Skywalker.

1. Anakin was a good boy
2. Anakin was corrupted by his environment and circumstances
3. Anakin was a weak willed little boy manipulated by Palpy
4. Darth Vader was evil, evil, evil... except he was being controlled by Palpy
5. Anakin becomes his original sweet and kind self again once Palpy is dead

But I'm starting to hate the idea of Anakin and Darth being the same person anyway.

QUOTE
Really, I don't think Jabba needed to be an alien to inspire fear.  He especially didn't need to be a giant muppet with buggy eyes.  In fact, I got the impression from SW and ESB that Han wasn't so much afraid of Jabba as he was of the fact that Jabba would send bounty hunters after him.  So I didn't really care what he looked like, but my reaction to Jabba wasony a little less severe than my reaction to Boss Nass.


Both were still pretty intolerable.

Anyhow, I can't wait for further analysis of the story... if you can stomach it.
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#55 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 15 March 2004 - 08:26 PM

QUOTE (Ferris Wiel @ Mar 15 2004, 01:09 PM)
Hmm. I don't know. I like Jabba as a human. I don't think that he needs to be an alien to appear threatening and I thought the slug was plain silly. I am looking at this from the perspective of making a film in 1983, too. Perhaps just a creepy looking human, or maybe even a distinguished looking older gentleman - or even maybe Vincent Price to keep with Lucas' idea in the first film with Peter Cushing. By the way, the whole "bonk on the head" thing I decided to toss out a while ago, but didn't remove it from the outline.

i made this point, but yeah, he was the galaxys' fat tony!
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#56 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 16 March 2004 - 11:53 AM

QUOTE
Luke moves to attack the Emperor who shoots lightning from the tips of his fingers! Luke is thrown back and Vader simply watches, disillusioned by the entire process. Luke rises again and tries to attack the Emperor who rebuffs him again. While shooting Luke he reveals that he is in fact a clone of Obi-Wan, that Owen Lars was the inventor of clone technology and that Obi-Wan was his brother:
Prior to the development of the Imperial technology for cloning, which harnessed Force power, only those who were Force sensitive could be cloned "successfully" so Obi-Wan volunteered himself, unfortunately generating an insane double. The clone escaped and, using the connections Obi-Wan had with the Jedi Council, turned them against each other in the clone wars. Anakin Skywalker, former pupil of Obi-Wan was seduced into following Obi-Wan's clone, unaware until it was too late.
Luke is unable to stand by this point.


To Ferris:

I decided to chime in for a little while to give some more critique on your idea. {actually I am sick in bed today, with a stomach virus :yuck: }

This is actually very similar to the final battle scene in Timothy Zahn's last command. What with the clone of Luke, the revelation of Joruss C'Boath.

I find this to be the part of your concept i like the least. Here are the reasons why
;

1. This is essentially the first ever detail or portrayal of clones and clone technology. The only other previous mention of clones is in New Hope and that was just Obi-Wans refrence to the clone wars. We all know what the clones are, will the casual Star Wars watcher understand how the clone concept fit into the Star Wars mythos. You would have to describe clone technology into the movie early to preface the Emperor's revelation that he is a clone.

2. Plot hole. In ESB, we see the emperor via a holographic image. We even see a closeup of his face. He does not look anything like Obi-Wan. He has no beard visible. If he is a a beardless clone of Obi-Wan how does Luke recognize him. More importantly will we the audience recognize him as Obi-Wan without the beard. The voice isn't the same either, but i guess you could chalk that up to distortion via the hologram.

3. Reality problem. Also, remember that Sir Alec Guinnes plays Obi-Wan. I remember that Alec guinness was never that enthralled with acting in Star Wars. You are now giving him even more screen time and work. Add to the fact that in 1983 Alec Guinesses health was not the best. We would he really agree to do a scene like the one you are suggesting. Remember he is a proud actor and was already making descent money from his appearances in the trilogy. I just don't know if the late Sir Alec would do that type of scene. He is not Christopher Lee, who will do ANY low budhet horror film regardless of it's taste.

4. Owen Larrs. Again another character not mentioned for a long time in the trilogy., yet now you are just mentioning again. You and I know who Owen Lars is but will the casually Star Wars fan remember him for early on in the first movie.

5. Character inconsistency- Does Owen Lars strike you as the person who would develop clone technology? Much less be the person that would do something like clone Obi-Wan. In many ways finding the creator of clone technology is more valuable than finding a Jedi knight. I would think the Imperials would be scouring the galaxy for someone like that, much less kill him outright. What is his motivation for teaching Luke? I see it as too much of a character inconsistence. Like Yoda leading the clones in ATOC.

6. The plot revolving around why Obi-Wan cloning, Palpatine and the council is pretty heady stuff. Especially if your doing this in the midst of Luke getting fried with lightning bolts. This is a plot line that has to explained carefully and clearly. How long is the scene going to last. The scene will also be told in complete exposition. You may need to have some flashbacks to make it beleivable.

7. Plot hole? The script says that Emperor used to be Senator Palpatine. if he used to be a Senator, i can't imagine nobody saw his face. Wouldn't everyone including Obi-Wan realize he is a clone. Palpatine apparently has a history that goes beyond the clone wars and was originally someone trusted by the senate and jedi alike.

8. Technology harnessing the force? I believe chef elf made mention of the force being diminished. This idea is almost as bad as midichlorians. Sorry.

9. Overuse of a plot device. The revelation of Darth Vader as Luke's father is considered the best plot device used by Lucas in the trilogy. I see that you want to use this same device in the Emperor's revelation. You succed in surprising the audience, but is the surprise really create a ploty point that the viewer wants. Does it add spice to the story or just plain confusion?

This is probably the weakest part of the story. Do you want to change it, keep it or edit it?
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