[Mike Mac from NYU]

Civilian, you should be a movie critic. {Probably rip my movies, when I get to that point, well at least you could say you knew me then!!}

It wasn't a challenge civilian. For the record I don't think your ideas are bad. Relax, calm down!! I am merely asking you to see what your concept is regarding what you think the third film should be. Doesn't have to be a hollywood script or anything, just a rough sketch listing concept of the scenes, characters and plot. If I think the idea is doable and a better idea than ROTJ, I can accept it as such. Your idea, actually might make a good alternative ROTJ story. Kind of like those alternative ending comics that Dark Horse comics issues.

I am old enough to have seen the premier of ROTJ and aware of the fact that there were originally three trilogies intended. One problem, Lucas still stated that he would not have started on any new Star Wars movies until around 1995s, allegedly around the time that he would be able to make the movies at a very low cost. He was not going to leave ANY cliffhanger for 12 years, he was going to wrap up the trilogy in ROTJ and then create the six chapters.

I can understand if you think ROTJ is ranked third amongst the OT. That is understandable and appreciated. What I think is ludicrous, is the notion that ROTJ is a bad movie. You want bad movies watch, Howard the Duck and Gigli sometime. There's some pain for you. If you want to say that ROTJ is disappointing, that is fine, too. ROTJ is not a bad movie!!!! :angry:

[Ferris Wiel]

Civilian, you should be a movie critic. {Probably rip my movies, when I get to that point, well at least you could say you knew me then!!}

It wasn't a challenge civilian. For the record I don't think your ideas are bad. Relax, calm down!! I am merely asking you to see what your concept is regarding what you think the third film should be. Doesn't have to be a hollywood script or anything, just a rough sketch listing concept of the scenes, characters and plot. If I think the idea is doable and a better idea than ROTJ, I can accept it as such. Your idea, actually might make a good alternative ROTJ story. Kind of like those alternative ending comics that Dark Horse comics issues.

I am old enough to have seen the premier of ROTJ and aware of the fact that there were originally three trilogies intended. One problem, Lucas still stated that he would not have started on any new Star Wars movies until around 1995s, allegedly around the time that he would be able to make the movies at a very low cost. He was not going to leave ANY cliffhanger for 12 years, he was going to wrap up the trilogy in ROTJ and then create the six chapters.

I can understand if you think ROTJ is ranked third amongst the OT. That is understandable and appreciated. What I think is ludicrous, is the notion that ROTJ is a bad movie. You want bad movies watch, Howard the Duck and Gigli sometime. There's some pain for you. If you want to say that ROTJ is disappointing, that is fine, too. ROTJ is not a bad movie!!!! :angry:

Shizit, dog! I dun gots dat shit!

I'll have to dig it up, but it's around here somewhere...

Underwear, Doritos, can of soda, bills... Wait, here it is:

Beware, this is old shit -

STAR WARS
Episode VI
A FINAL STAND
An outline

Following two spectacular failures of Darth Vader, the Emperor has given control of the fleet to a brilliant tactician. Admiral Gormas commands the Executor, with which he has driven the Rebels to the farthest edge of the outer rim but can track them no further as they have discovered new methods of hiding.

Admiral Gormas demonstrates his abilities in a fight with a convoy he discovers, obliterating them. He reveals that he finds only cells of resistance and not the body of the Rebellion, but that it will change in the near future.

Tensions run high among Vader, Gormas and the Emperor. Vader sees the Emperor as senile and part of the old regime and Gormas as a weak non-Sith. The Emperor views Vader as a traitor whose showmanship has cost the Empire dearly and Gormas as a formidable force to keep in check and Gormas views all Sith as obsolete.

Leia Organa has taken to the bridge of a Rebel starship, serving as commander. They receive news of the destroyed convoy via a scrambled transmission. Leia puts R2-D2 to work unscrambling the data.

Aboard the Executor Vader squares off with Gormas about waiting and not simply eradicating the Rebels. Gormas says to be patient. Vader leaves.

R2 discovers that there is hidden, interlaced in the transmission, data of some secret nature.

Luke and Lando sneak into the crimelord's pleasure palace on Hut Tralla as wealthy and corrupt businessmen. Under the false pretense of having an offer for him, Jabba, a fat and hairy humanoid, permits them to meet with him in his personal suite. Knocking him temporarily unconcious, the pair works to release Solo from the carbonite, only to discover that Han is temporarily blind!

Jabba comes to and summons his guards. It had all been a setup. Boba Fett informed the gangster that they were coming.

Leia, having been informed of R2's discovery, realizes that the data was encrypted in an ancient language. C-3P0, with only a partial knowledge of the language, has the task of translating.

Being a sporting man, Jabba gives the band of heroes an opportunity to exonerate themselves. He decrees that Boba Fett and Han Solo should face off in a quickdraw. Solo, known throughout the galaxy (although particularly with the ladies) as among the fastest hands, is the ideal candidate, excepting that he can't see! With reluctance, he accepts.

3P0 has more than 60% of the message translated and excitedly relays to Rebel Command that the data contains co-ordinates for the source of the Empire's vast armies - a well protected, well hidden cloning facility on the planet Buhovalt.

Solo and Boba Fett face off, Lando putting Han in place. Jabba watches with excitement. The two duelists strain, each waiting for the other and then - Solo draws and kills Boba Fett. Jabba congratulates Han, his thirst for excitement sated. He says the trio is free to go.

Gormas speaks with the Emperor of Vader's departure. It is to be of no concern to Gormas. Vader has been summoned back to Rocnah, center of the Empire's power.

Lando and Han return to the Rebel fleet and discover that all branches have been called in for a full-scale assault on Buhovalt. It is revealed that the planet is well-shielded, well-guarded and formerly well-hidden.

Leia will command a capital ship (another Corellian Corvette like the Tantive IV, but with heavy modifications). Han, sight restored, will lead the fighters in the Falcon. Lando will take a team on the ground.

Luke meets with Yoda again. In the two years following his defeat with Vader, Yoda has trained him for what will be the final battle. Luke must face Vader, who is in fact his father, and the Emperor. This time he is ready. Yoda reveals that when Luke leaves this time he will not be allowed to come back as the entire planet will have vanished. Luke then figures out why nothing came up on his scopes while landing the first time: it was because the planet was completely Force-generated and Yoda was a long-dead Jedi instructor. All for the purpose of training Luke.

The fleet departs for Buhovalt.

Luke flies to Rocnah and surrenders himself.

The fleet arrives and the groups break off. Fighters taking out the patrols and capital ships gunning for the sentries.

The assault forces, including Lando's team head for the planet's surface - some being picked off by surface to space fire, others by fighters and cruisers, but plenty make it to the surface to make an attack. The ground forces of the Rebellion have become far more formidable in the time since the battle of Hoth.

Luke is taken before the Emperor. They speak for a short while, the Emperor attempting to seduce Luke to the dark side, and Luke has a familiar sensation - the dark master removes his hood to reveal: the face of Obi-Wan Kenobi!

The tide is turning in the space battle on Buhovalt, the Rebels are winning just as...the near entirety of the Imperial fleet arrives.

Admiral Gormas, aboard the bridge of the Executor is smug. He allowed the Alliance to have the location of the facility and at this point he would vanquish them.

Ground forces continue to fight their way in, but it's no easy battle. They do make headway.

Luke, stunned, says nothing. The Emperor claims that he is in fact Obi-Wan Kenobi and has been leading him through all of his training to this very point where he could fulfill his destiny. He cultivated the sense of rage toward Vader by lying to him about who killed his father. Luke, steps back, head spinning. Vader says nothing.

The Rebels are getting pummelled. Admiral Gormas receives an update that 65% of the capital ships and 57% of the fighters have been eliminated.

Leia is prepared to turn and run when suddenly - a vast array of pirate and smuggling vessels, led by Chewbacca, jump in from hyperspace! Jabba the Hut has called in those loyal to him to take on the Empire and Chewie, who had been working in the repair corps on Hut Tralla.

Luke searches his feelings, his thoughts, he grasps for information and realizes that the Emperor is lying. He denies the allegations and draws his lightsabre.

Lando's forces have reached the shield generator on the surface of the planet, only to realize that there are two stations that must be taken out and they only have enough explosives for one. Lando volunteers himself to deactivate the second shield station.

Luke moves to attack the Emperor who shoots lightning from the tips of his fingers! Luke is thrown back and Vader simply watches, disillusioned by the entire process. Luke rises again and tries to attack the Emperor who rebuffs him again. While shooting Luke he reveals that he is in fact a clone of Obi-Wan, that Owen Lars was the inventor of clone technology and that Obi-Wan was his brother:
Prior to the development of the Imperial technology for cloning, which harnessed Force power, only those who were Force sensitive could be cloned "successfully" so Obi-Wan volunteered himself, unfortunately generating an insane double. The clone escaped and, using the connections Obi-Wan had with the Jedi Council, turned them against each other in the clone wars. Anakin Skywalker, former pupil of Obi-Wan was seduced into following Obi-Wan's clone, unaware until it was too late.
Luke is unable to stand by this point.

The space battle turns heavily to the favor of the Rebellion once again. Admiral Gormas signals retreat.

Lando, just as he makes it to the shield station, is mortally wounded, but successfully disables the shields just as the first station goes offline. The countdown begins for those on the surface to get out of harm's way before the capital ships destroy the cloning facilities. Lando, with his comm-link sends a farewell message to Han Solo.

On Rocnah, Luke writhes in pain and is fast approaching death. He cries out to Vader to save him. Sparking something in Vader that he hasn't felt in a long time, compassion. The Sith lord, filled with love for his son takes his lightsabre and cuts down the Emperor. It is revealed, though, that the Emperor was part of what sustained Vader, so his life is forefeit. He collapses.

Han receives the message from Lando and he says his goodbyes as Lando fades into peaceful oblivion. Just afterward, the capital ships open fire and destroy the cloning facilities on Buhovalt.

Luke talks to Vader about missed opportunities and removes his mask. They say goodbye.

Jabba's forces do mop up work while the Rebellion's light-assault ships pick up pilots from derelict vessels. The casualties were great, but worth the price.

The band of heroes, sans Luke, sit, drink and talk in the lounge aboard one of the larger ships, they're sad, yet excited. Luke enters and shares his experiences. He sees the ghosts Obi-Wan, Yoda, and a restored Anakin Skywalker, greeting each other warmly and acknowledging him. He returns to the group.


The End


This is a rough draft. I wrote it over the course of an hour one morning (the ideas had bounced around in my head for a while, though).

--FW

[civilian_number_two]

ROTJ is not a bad movie!!!! :angry:

Sure. maybe. It's just a bad STAR WARS movie. :angry:

Vwing: I agree that killing Solo to give Luke to Leia would have been a copout. But Ford's comment was that his character wasn't going to get the girl *anyway,* and he wanted a dramatic ending. Yeah, he was tired of STAR WARS, but his trend since then has always been to go for the movie that paid the most money. And he was pretty quiet about his disappointment, so as not to steo on any toes. He just said he wouldn't do any more STAR WARS movies because he didn't theink there was anywhere left for the character to go.

I agree though, that I may be wrong to take his statements at face value. Your skepticism is refreshing.

But for the record, suddenly revealing, out of the blue, that Luke and Leia were siblings, to resolve a love triangle, is far worse than killing one of them off. And that was the only narrative purpose of that revelation. It made it so we didn't have to feel bad that Luke didn't get to have the sex with Leia. She certainly didn't do anything to show what a "last hope" she was.

The other thing: Everything you say about Luke/Leia not thinking their mental link was unusual, because neither was really sure it was going on, is kinda pushing the bounds. Yeah, Luke was hurt, and Leia was ... oh, there was nothing wrong with Leia, so she must have thought there was somehing odd about ther "funny feeling." Maybe not right at that moment, but *eventually.* Anyway, I don't buy the thing about Luke not knowing what he was doing. He tried to call out to Ben, he also talked to Vader during that whole exchange. Hurt or not, this was something he was consciously working on! If I'm supposed to figure the common denominator is that all the people in that set of chats are Force-sensitive, then Luke and Leia shuld have put that together as well. You keep saying that nine months pass between EMPIRE and JEDI. What, they never once thought about this odd event? What, they never talked? That Luke never found it curious plays to the fact that Lucas hadn't come up with this idea yet, and still believed not only that everyone had some Force sensitivity, but also that Luke could have sent thoughts out to Han as well, had Han been awake.

And why did Luke call out to Leia and not someone else? Well, either he hadn't seen Han, or he knew Han was encased in carbonite. He didn't know Lando. Who was he going to call out to, the Wookiee?

[Mike Mac from NYU]

To Ferris Weil-

I would love to give you a full detailed opinion on your concept idea {my wife is 6 months pregnant and I have to take her for her sonogram in a few minutes} But I just have to give you some tidbits.

Pretty impressive, Ferris Weil. Lucas should hire you to screenwrite Episode III.
Are you Timothy Zahn in real life ? Your idea sounds a lot like one of Timothy Zahn's Star Wars novels in tone and complexity. While I thought Timothy Zahn's trilogy sequel was good, it lacked the fantasy and emotional core that is so essential to Star Wars. Zahn's novels are a "Tom Clancy"-fication of the Star Wars novel. They concentrateon the war conflict and the strategies and politics behind the war. The Jedi elements and the personal development are secondary. Sort of what your concept idea is. {Which is not a bad thing, just not my preference} Read Dark Force Rising by Timothy Zahn and compare it to "The Courtship of Princess Leia" (I forget the author} to see what I mean. Now on to my critique

1. Your new character of Admiral Gormas. What two failures by Vader? The first death Star? That was more Moff Tarkins fault. Vader apparently was given more power in ESB since he is now controlling the Imperial Fleet. He finds the rebel hideout when Admiral Ozzel doesn't. He kills Ozzel and puts a better admiral in Piett in charge. Plus he destroys the rebel base and sets the rebellion back in progress. Why wouldn't the Emperor be pleased at Vader? And why be impressed with some new Admiral we've never seen until now. Especially when two imperial Admirals failed so miserably. I can't see the Emperor even considering a non-Sith to share Vader's power or to be his right hand man.
Plus, you now have to introduce Admiral Gormas as a charcter and show why he is in favor with the emperor. Charcter development of a minor character. Might take away some valuable screen time that will be needed for other things. {see my "Unnecessary Characters " post on this forum}
I would say that the Gormas character and the power struggle while interesting, is really not that vital to the story. Your probably best, simply leaving out the Gormas character or simply reducing his importance. {Besides, I think this power struggle idea was covered in the book "Shadows of the Empire" the intermediary between ESB and ROTJ}

2. Jabba the Hut as a an ordinary human. I hate this idea on so many levels. Making Jabba the Hut human is kinda of like making Darth Vader into a handsome englishman in dark clothing and a sinister voice. Or like making Yoda into full sized old man in white robes. You see where I am going with this? Your concept of Jabba the Hutt lacks imagination, and is wasted opportunity for special effects. If your going to use this concept of Jabba the Hutt at least make him look like an alien {maybe a serpent like guy with a human torso and snake like tail}. Anything but a regular human.
Also, remember Jabba the Hutt's name had been passing around the first two movies like a spector. Who was this man that Han feared? The man who was so obsessed with killing Han, that he was willing to send a bounty hunter to kill him on Ord Mantell. We are all expecting a dramatic introduction to this character. Your concept doesn't provide us with that. ROTJ IMO, did a good job of showing and given us a dramatic and consistant portrait of who Jabba was. The portrait of Jabba by the way is very true of gangsters. The Mob is not ruled by active enforcers, but instead by older, out of shape men who have the authority and control to kill people. The don't move because they don't have to they have enough authority over assasins to be feared on their own {Remember Paul Sorvino's character in Goodfellas. Not really an active guy is he? Would you spit in his face though? I would think not} Jabba is a crime lord, NOT an enforcer!!!

There is plenty more I will post later.

Still a good idea, Ferris.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

To Civilian:

Sure. maybe. It's just a bad STAR WARS movie. 

My point exactly. Your are ranking ROTJ at the lower rung in the OT. You think it is a dissappointent. You also agreed that ROTJ is not a bad movie. Wow, we are agreeing on things for the first time, I think I am going to cry. .

You contradict yourself. You accuse me and V-Wing of looking at ROTJ through "rose-colored" glasses. Yet maybe you are looking at ROTJ through "SW & ESB-colored glasses" You obviously fell in love with SW and ESB and through them great movies and saw something in them that you expected with ROTJ. When you didn't get that something, it ruined the whole movie for you. Just as you accuse us of being jaded by our childhood past experiences with , you too are being jaded by your experience with those first two movies.

Hell you and i know bad movies when we see them. Episodes 1 & 2 are not just bad star wars movies, but movies entirely. You and I agree on that.

V-Wing and I saw SW and ESB and got what we wanted out of ROTJ. You and Ferris Weil, saw SW and ESB and didn't get what you wanted out of ROTJ. I am sorry for both on your disappointments. Truly I am. .

P.S. Hey civilian if you have got the cash, and get the copyright from Lucas, I am willing to direct a new version of ROTJ for you, while I am redoing the PT. Just keep George Lucas away from me. LOL, Civilian

[civilian_number_two]

To Ferris Weil-

Sorry, Ferris. I had to stop reading when I saw that Han was going to square off in a duel with Boba Fett. What we want is a sequel that is different from ROTJ, not one that is more or ess the same thing. Sounded like you had some good stuff going with the new villain; I will probably go back later to read it.
Didn't like Han being blind after the carbonite. Since ... well, that's exactly what Lucas did! Is ths really an alternate screenplay, or the sme thing with subtle variation. ... again, probably it goes somewhere completely different. I'll red it another time.

Making Jabba the Hut human is kinda of like making Darth Vader into a handsome englishman in dark clothing and a sinister voice.

Or, it's like taking off Vader's helmet and he's this soft-spoken Englishman withut a hint of his old evil self. Or it's like making Vader a little kid who yells "yippee!"

Really, I don't think Jabba needed to be an alien to inspire fear. He especially didn't need to be a giant muppet with buggy eyes. In fact, I got the impression from SW and ESB that Han wasn't so much afraid of Jabba as he was of the fact that Jabba would send bounty hunters after him. So I didn't really care what he looked like, but my reaction to Jabba wasony a little less severe than my reaction to Boss Nass.

Your comparison of Jabba to Paulie from GOODFELLAS is nice, but that's not the way it HAS to be.
Don Logan inspired fear in SEXY BEAST, and he was thin, wiry Ben Kingsley. Damn good flick, that, even though the bunny image is a bit strained.


Anyway, congrats on the coming baby. You got some rough nights ahead!

[Vwing]

Civ, I have a question for you then. If, at the end of ESB or the beginning of ROTJ they had said something about this at some point, would you have been happy? Would you have been more willing to accept it if, say they had a 1 minute conversation about it? I like that it was left to us. And also, there wasn't too much time to talk about it. You know, there was kind of a war going on. And even if they don't discuss it, why is that necessary? I think it's clear enough as it is. I didn't think they needed to find it curious, again look at the situation they're in. He reaches out to Vader, Ben, and Leia, all Force sensitive people. It never goes one way. She had the Force. I thought that was clear enough to warrant Luke knowing that Leia is his sister in ROTJ.

Also, would you rather that the movies were exactly the same, except you take out the "There is another" line in ESB and take out that Luke was Leia's sister in ROTJ, and have him accept that Leia loves Han? Or, would you rather that Leia demonstrate her latent Force powers somewhere in ESB or ROTJ? I don't really think it would be that necessary, and as I said, thought that the Force communication was enough though it wasn't to you, but would that have made a difference to you?

[civilian_number_two]

You contradict yourself. You accuse me and V-Wing of looking at ROTJ through "rose-colored" glasses.

No. That wasn't me. The exp​ression was "beer goggles," but it wasn't me who said it. I agree a little, however. I suspect you were the right age not to be disappointed by JEDI, which makes you a little younger than I am. Someone else brought up how HE Man is terrible but we all like it as kids. I think I'm out of the loop because I was too old to like He-Man.

You also agreed that ROTJ is not a bad movie.

That's not the same as thinking it was good. Gary Kurtz dropped out of the STAR WARS team with the same sorts of complaints I have been making. There's nothing terribly wrong with JEDI, except that it doesn't belong in the same series with EMPIRE. It's a silly kids' movie (I know, I know, I'll hear from Vwing), while EMPIRE is a kids' movie, but not a silly one. It was a let-down.

Hey civilian if you have got the cash, and get the copyright from Lucas, I am willing to direct a new version of ROTJ for you, while I am redoing the PT.

Hah. If I ever had that kind of money, I think I'd direct it myself. I'd also write it, and edit it, and produce it, and approve all of the costumes, and toys, and ... ah hah hah! I am king of the world!

But of course, there's no going back. Everyone's just too old. As for redoing the PT, why bother? I'm sure that anyone with a good idea and piles of money could make his own nine-part space opera that would knock the socks off of the PT and its toy-marketing bullshit.

[civilian_number_two]

Civ, I have a question for you then.  If, at the end of ESB or the beginning of ROTJ they had said something about this at some point, would you have been happy?  Would you have been more willing to accept it if, say they had a 1 minute conversation about it?

If they had done that in ESB, yes, but not at the beginning of JEDI. I think that had they considered it odd in ESB, then we could take it to be a "clue." Since they didn't consider it odd, we had to assume it was as natural a thing as Luke walking around with a grappling hook on his belt. Like, no big deal, folks; move along.

It suddenly being a big deal in JEDI is an indicator that Lucas was writing the series one film at a time, despite what he had said about having a nine-film series planned. Then, when he failed to do anything with Leia's Force abilities, like, anything at all, it was a pretty strong indicator that he had only made up the sibling thing to resolve the love triangle.

In later years, he would decide that Jedi did not have sex, something else that would have resolved the triangle, if only he'd thought of it in time.

Also, would you rather that the movies were exactly the same, except you take out the "There is another" line in ESB and take out that Luke was Leia's sister in ROTJ, and have him accept that Leia loves Han? Or, would you rather that Leia demonstrate her latent Force powers somewhere in ESB or ROTJ?

The latter would have been nice, but I think the former would have been preferable. Had Leia and Luke not been siblings, but eberything else had remained the same, Death Star 2, Vader Duel 2, Ewok comic relief, Wookiee Tarzan yell, Redemption of Vader, and dumb "From a certain point of view" line(which, again, Lucas wanted us to believe was a perfectly reasonable answer, rather than a copout) notwithstanding, the movie would have been a lot better.

I still would have been disappointed, but then, I'd been raised to expect four more great films, not just one mediocre one.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 14 March 2004 - 03:39 PM

[Jordan]

The connection that luke made with leila in ESB brought forth the idea that something was going on between them. Who knows what! But in ROTJ it was made clear that they shared a JEDI connection.

I think the ESB simply brought forth the possiblity of---It did not give to much of a clue, just a hint.

[Vwing]

I wouldn't say "certain point of view" is a copout. It's not like that changed the story. You coulda had Ben saying, I lied, or what Lucas did, but neither would have changed the story, so I wouldn't call it a copout. And I'm really surprised that that one detail of the sibling relationship changed the story so much for you, and so hindered your enjoyment of the movie.

As for ROTJ and ESB, here's the thing. ESB was the only Star Wars movie which, as a kid, I didn't feel like watching much. ANH and ROTJ I would watch over and over, but not ESB. I still loved it, but not in the same way I loved the other 2. Then there was a period when I didn't watch any Star Wars movie for a long time, and I read about how people now thought that ESB was the best Star Wars movie and ROTJ was the worst. Since I hadn't watched the movies in a while, I decided to take this at face value and went back and watched ESB. I was very surprised when I found that I DID like it a lot more than I did when I was younger. Knowing this, I went into ROTJ, fully expecting that I would also agree and think it was, as you said, a "silly kids' movie." I didn't. I found myself just as, if not more, entertained than I was when I was younger. Now I appreciated it more on an emotional level, and would watch the final battle between Vader and Luke over and over again, and yet also found that I still loved all the things I had loved when I was a kid. Growing older just increased my love for the movie. It also increased it for ESB. But between the 2, I still have to say, ROTJ entertains me more. Is it Citizen Kane, is it a masterpiece of filmmaking? No. Is ESB more artsy and better-made, and ambitious? In many aspects of it, yes, though ROTJ is still extremely well-made and many parts of it (like the rancor, speeder bike, and gigantic space battle) are extremely ambitious. Is it more entertaining, does it get my emotions running higher than ROTJ does? Honestly, no it doesn't. Few movies have made me feel as much emotion as ROTJ did. Can I explain why? Not entirely, though I've tried. But suffice it to say that I just love it. You don't, and I feel bad that you don't. I encourage you to try to watch it again, try not to look at it with hate but try as if you were watching it for the first time again. You may still hate it, I don't know. I don't see how one could think it is a bad movie, even a bad Star Wars movie. But obviously, I'm not going to change you're opinion. So it's about time we agree to disagree, since we seem to be arguing the same points over and over . Go over to the Movie Theater, and maybe we can argue about how I think ROTK was the worst of the 3 LOTR movies, and also badly directed (yes, it has more to do with direction than editing, and so I blame Peter Jackson. Not sure what I'm talking about? Then let's go)

This post has been edited by Vwing: 14 March 2004 - 04:14 PM

[Chefelf]

Ferris, what's wrong with Admiral Piett?

[Vwing]

Yeah I have to agree with Chef here, Piett's a great character! If you're going to have a power struggle, it might as well be with an existing Imperial that we all like (did anyone else cry for him when the Executor was destroyed? No? Oh...um, me neither. Yeah. Hey, look over there! *runs away*)

[Jordan]

my wife is 6 months pregnant and I have to take her for her sonogram in a few minutes

Conratualtions!

[civilian_number_two]

I wouldn't say "certain point of view" is a copout. It's not like that changed the story.

Well, it is a copout, and no. It didn't change the story. But Lucas asked us to accept it and at the same time to accept that Ben and Yoda never lied to Luke. He wanted us to buy the line at face value. It's like when Lucas told everyone that he had written nine movies at one time, and then he said that had never been true. It's like how he had posters and an ad campaign for "Revenge of the Jedi," and then later he said that was an ad department goof-up, that he'd never changed his mind. So no. It didn't change the story, but it sure drew a lot of attention to itself, and to Lucas's make-it-up-as-I-go process. I wasn't kidding when I said people booed that line in the theatre when saw it on opening day.

And I'm really surprised that that one detail of the sibling relationship changed the story so much for you, and so hindered your enjoyment of the movie.

In ST V, Spock suddenly has a brother. Kirk asks him why he never told him he had a brother. Spock turns to him, all Stan Laurel-like, and ssays "You never asked."

Leia suddenly being Luke's sister was as stupid as that. It's not a little thing. The running joke at the time was that everyone ws going to find out that everyone was interrelated. Mad Magazine sagely joked that Darth Vader and C3P0 would turn out to be distant cousins. Not long after this spoofing, within weeks of the release of JEDI, Lucas annouced officially that the series was over. I guess Lucas acknowledged that he had written himself into a corner, and that he had nowhere to go.

I appreciate everything you're saying about not liking EMPIRE as much when you were a kid, about having a stronger emotional connection to STAR WARS and JEDI. Myself, I watched EMPIRE nine times in the theatre, making it the single film I have seen more than any other outside the home. So my reaction to JEDI was different from yours, and aparently where I wanted theSTAR WARS series to go was a rather different place from what you wanted.

I watched the movie again, at the start of this dialogue (another excuse to avoid work), and I still found it silly. It's just not up to the level of EMPIRE, and in some ways (well-documented here), it takes away from its predecessors. I know you don't agree.

Vive la difference.