[Sailor Abbey]

Ok so, Palpatine was just like ‘I will not let this Republic which has stood for a thousand years, fall.’

Then how was I possibly a Knight of the Old Republic with my pals Bastila and HK47 4000 years before the Battle of Yavin.

Whatever happened to “The Jedi were the protectors of the Republic for 1000 generations.” That’s like 20,000 years.

Oh my god my head hurts.

[David-kyo]

Apparently, Palpatine's score at his history test must not have been too high. An ideal politician, stupid, illiterate but malignant.

[KurganX]

Ah, but none of the Jedi or other officials in the room have the balls to correct him...

Seriously though, the Episode III novel confirms it in multiple places. The Republic is 1,000 years old (and this is the same "Old Republic" that Obi-Wan refers to in ANH), and the Jedi Order predates its founding.

The EU retconned it (they'd already established a Republic that was 25,000+ years old, with stories occuring 5,000 years before the OT in the Republic with the Jedi Order at its beck and call, of course with married Jedi that used all manner of lightsaber colors, including red sometimes, with more than one student at a time, not called padawans, and of course there were more than two Sith at a time and they existed long before the Episode I novel stated for them in the new re-written history for them in 1999).

I'd be fine with thinking that the "Tales of the Jedi" comics and the KOTOR games are a bunch of legendary fantasies, like Le Morte D'Arthur or even Lord of the Rings (though I'm inclined to think something similar about the Prequel Trilogy compared to the Original Trilogy, heh!).

But the EU insisted on retconning it to be a "refounding" of the Republic which occured a thousand years before Episode I called the "Ruusan Reformation" that "reset" everyone's calendar and from that point on they just referred to the Republic as starting 1,000 years ago.

Though that doesn't answer why Obi-Wan would say to Luke (amongst his other sayings which are now lies thanks to ESB/ROTJ and the Prequel Trilogy) something to the effect that HIS memory stretches back 25,000 years...

[Sailor Abbey]

Well that’s weird. It sucks that you have to read a bunch of EU stuff to sort it all out.

Personally, KOTOR was more Star Wars than the PT will ever be, and if Bastila says the republic is 20,000 years old, then I believe her.

[Despondent]

So for the most part, Lucas threw out the usable stuff of the EU because it changed his story (for the better).

KurganX, you make a good point with the 1000 gens / 1000 years connection, one I've never seen brought to light. But be grateful GL didn't come up with that one or Yoda might have said: "Since the beginning of the Republic, have I trained Jedi...".

[Helena]

The 25,000 years thing was not an EU 'retcon'. Obi-Wan clearly states in ANH that the Jedi protected the Old Republic for 'a thousand generations' - i.e. at least 20-25,000 years - therefore that is the age of the Republic, period. I don't give a fuck what the PT says about it; if Lucas can't be bothered to keep his own films consistent with each other, he's no right to expect his fans to accept the new ones as canon.

[parcelbombsmurf]

The 25,000 years thing was not an EU 'retcon'. Obi-Wan clearly states in ANH that the Jedi protected the Old Republic for 'a thousand generations' - i.e. at least 20-25,000 years - therefore that is the age of the Republic, period. I don't give a fuck what the PT says about it; if Lucas can't be bothered to keep his own films consistent with each other, he's no right to expect his fans to accept the new ones as canon.

1) Thanks for explaining the retcon. It's interesting. But it's also garbage. What's the point of starting a calendar over again? Are they trying to avoid Y2K? If anything, a ruler would want his calendar to be amazingly high numerically so he could say things like "I'm the ruler of a million year old kingdom." The US always gets the international shaft for its relative youth. Why would you impose the shaft on yourself? Having a convention of starting a calendar over is ridiculous. A better explanation would be: there was some kind of coup 1,000 years ago, and the current regime started the calendar over to quash the predecessor from history--some people who believed in the old regime still refer to the republic as being 25,000 years old, the people who supported the old regime refer to a younger age--in other words, there could have been a more plausible political explanation.

2) Having said that, I have no faith in Lucas. So in reality, there is almost certainly no plausible explanation. In a New Hope, the republic is 25,000 years old. In the prequels, it's 1,000 years old. Why? Because the Star Wars galaxy is not real. And Lucas inadvertently and constantly reminds me of this. Suspension of disbelief is obviously not a high priority for the man.

3) KOTOR completely OWNS the prequels. But the guys that do those games have an AMAZING ability at storytelling. They also did the D&D Baldur's Gate games, which were also fantastic. Lucas could learn something from them. I was infinitely more moved by Bastila's story than Anakin's story when all is said and done.

[Helena]

What's the point of starting a calendar over again? Are they trying to avoid Y2K?

Not only does randomly deciding to relaunch the Republic make no sense, it still conflicts with what Obi-Wan said - he tells us that the Jedi protected 'the Old Republic', not 'the Old Republic and the Even-Older-Than-That Republic'. I'm so unbelievably fed up of being expected to swallow all these half-baked EU retcons just because Lucas can't be bothered to get someone to check the consistency of his plots. My God, any of his fans would probably have done it FOR FREE! I'd have done it for free if it meant not having to wince at blatant continuity errors every five minutes! There's just no excuse.

3) KOTOR completely OWNS the prequels. But the guys that do those games have an AMAZING ability at storytelling. They also did the D&D Baldur's Gate games, which were also fantastic. Lucas could learn something from them. I was infinitely more moved by Bastila's story than Anakin's story when all is said and done.

I'll say it again: Bastila is what Anakin should have been in the prequels (only female, of course). Actually, that's unfair to Bastila: she's twice the man that Anakin is. KOTOR is an object lesson in how good the prequels could have been, if only they'd got a real writer to handle the scripts.

[KurganX]

The 25,000 years thing was not an EU 'retcon'. Obi-Wan clearly states in ANH that the Jedi protected the Old Republic for 'a thousand generations' - i.e. at least 20-25,000 years - therefore that is the age of the Republic, period. I don't give a fuck what the PT says about it; if Lucas can't be bothered to keep his own films consistent with each other, he's no right to expect his fans to accept the new ones as canon.

It IS an EU retcon, because there's no statement that the Republic is 25,000 years old in any of the movies.

The line is:

"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic... before the dark times... before the Empire!"

What does he mean? Is he lying?

The EU worked it out to be 25,000 years. Then Episode III comes along and clearly has the leader of the Republic state:

"I will not let this Republic, which has stood for a thousand years be split in two."

The Episode III novelisation has the Jedi mention the age of the Republic as a thousand years and the "Loyalist" Senators say so in private that this is it's age.

Despite it being a clear contradiction to the implication of what Obi-Wan said, given Lucas's penchent for demanding people take the Prequels over the OT and the EU, it must be officially 1,000 years old.

The EU gets around it be saying they reset the calendar (AFTER Episode II came out, of course). Go figure.

Of course you could get around it by saying that Obi-Wan is just lying or senile (had his memory erased like everyone else that survived the prequel era but doesn't remember it)!


Much like Leia not remembering her mother, there's really no satisfying explanation for it. Lucas just screwed up and he's not likely to fix it...

All he'd have to do is have Ian McDiarmand redub the line as "...for [...] thousandS OF yearS.." and it'd be fine.



It's no worse than any of the other contradictions between trilogies, but one more bit of ammunition against those who claim such contradictions don't exist!

This post has been edited by KurganX: 08 June 2007 - 11:33 AM

[Helena]

It IS an EU retcon, because there's no statement that the Republic is 25,000 years old in any of the movies.

OK: Obi-Wan talks about 'a thousand generations', and since he and Luke are both humans, they are obviously talking in human generations (yes, I have heard gushers try to argue to the contrary... sigh). Presuming that humans in Star Wars have children at roughly the same age we do, which appears to be the case, there's going to be roughly 20-30 years between each generation - so, while the total may not be exactly 25,000 years, it's going to be around that number. There is absolutely no way that a period of one year can be construed to constitute a 'generation', ergo the 'thousand years' figure given in the PT is a contradiction of the OT. It's nothing to do with what may or may not be stated in the EU; however, the EU figure is entirely consistent with what we're told in the OT. It's the PT version that's a retcon, and not even a plausible one at that.

Like I say, I honestly don't care what Lucas's 'official' version is. As far as I'm concerned, the ORIGINAL version of a story is canon and nothing else. You cannot simply retcon your own stories and expect fans to automatically accept the new versions as canon. Some authors can manage to do retcons and make them plausible, but where the 'new' version of canon is quite clearly a flat contradiction of the old one, you have to choose one or the other.

[Despondent]

OT fan: Choose now who you will serve.

or

PT fan: I Choose now who'll swerve.





Get it? it's a pallindrome.

[georgelucas4greedo]

I would accept the Republic as more of a United Nations or a small scale democracy of a dozen or so like-minded planets. But I can't accept what we got in TPM going on for 25,000. There is no way that many political factions and alien races could coexist for that long, much less all submit to one dictator just because things got a little hot.

[KurganX]

OK: Obi-Wan talks about 'a thousand generations', and since he and Luke are both humans, they are obviously talking in human generations (yes, I have heard gushers try to argue to the contrary... sigh). Presuming that humans in Star Wars have children at roughly the same age we do, which appears to be the case, there's going to be roughly 20-30 years between each generation - so, while the total may not be exactly 25,000 years, it's going to be around that number. There is absolutely no way that a period of one year can be construed to constitute a 'generation', ergo the 'thousand years' figure given in the PT is a contradiction of the OT. It's nothing to do with what may or may not be stated in the EU; however, the EU figure is entirely consistent with what we're told in the OT. It's the PT version that's a retcon, and not even a plausible one at that.

Like I say, I honestly don't care what Lucas's 'official' version is. As far as I'm concerned, the ORIGINAL version of a story is canon and nothing else. You cannot simply retcon your own stories and expect fans to automatically accept the new versions as canon. Some authors can manage to do retcons and make them plausible, but where the 'new' version of canon is quite clearly a flat contradiction of the old one, you have to choose one or the other.

No, the EU states that the Republic lasted over 25,000 years, with the Jedi Knights ever its protectors and there were tons of wars.

The PT states that the Republic is 1,000 years old and there hasn't been a "full scale war" since the foundation of the Republic. There's also a different history given for the Sith in the (EU) TPM novelisation (well and in the Sith ruling the galaxy at one time, according to Episode III).

So the PT is in contradiction to the implied understanding of ANH and the EU interpretation that followed that "common sense" understanding (of "over a thousand generations" as 20-30 years x 1,000).

The "retcon" is the RETROACTIVE FIX put into the EU after ROTS and the ROTS novelisation solidified the "1,000 year Republic" thing; that states that there was a 24,000 year old Republic, then it was "reformed" 1,000 years ago and so they all reset their calendars (apparently except Obi-Wan).

It's even worse than that though, because the Jedi don't HAVE children and the Jedi Council is mostly aliens!

I agree, it's a contradiction between trilogies that requires some kind of retcon to "fix" it. I'm less concerned that the movies contradict the EU, than that the movies contradict the movies! That's Lucas' bad writing for you...

I would accept the Republic as more of a United Nations or a small scale democracy of a dozen or so like-minded planets. But I can't accept what we got in TPM going on for 25,000. There is no way that many political factions and alien races could coexist for that long, much less all submit to one dictator just because things got a little hot.

Agreed. I can't imagine a galactic society with a toothless Republic (no standing army, wtf? though an army of a few million soldiers to keep the peace is pretty ridiculous as well, ditto for only 10,000 Jedi!) being without war for 1,000 years (much less 25,000!).

And one guy and his sidekick can screw it all up in like 15 years? Sheesh!

[Helena]

No, the EU states that the Republic lasted over 25,000 years, with the Jedi Knights ever its protectors and there were tons of wars.

The PT states that the Republic is 1,000 years old and there hasn't been a "full scale war" since the foundation of the Republic. There's also a different history given for the Sith in the (EU) TPM novelisation (well and in the Sith ruling the galaxy at one time, according to Episode III).

So the PT is in contradiction to the implied understanding of ANH and the EU interpretation that followed that "common sense" understanding (of "over a thousand generations" as 20-30 years x 1,000).

That's exactly what I said. I'm not sure where we're supposed to be disagreeing here.

The "retcon" is the RETROACTIVE FIX put into the EU after ROTS and the ROTS novelisation solidified the "1,000 year Republic" thing; that states that there was a 24,000 year old Republic, then it was "reformed" 1,000 years ago and so they all reset their calendars (apparently except Obi-Wan).

Ah, I think I see what you mean now. Yes, that is certainly a retcon (though the original '25,000 years' figure was not). But the whole '1000 years' thing in the PT is also a retcon - they wouldn't have had to change the EU figure at all if it weren't for that.

Agreed. I can't imagine a galactic society with a toothless Republic (no standing army, wtf? though an army of a few million soldiers to keep the peace is pretty ridiculous as well, ditto for only 10,000 Jedi!) being without war for 1,000 years (much less 25,000!).

Tell me about it. Not to mention that the 'no war' thing contradicts half the EU as well...

[KurganX]

I think I see what happened. I mistakenly was looking at it from the "Lucas POV" and assuming this was a six part saga, in which parts of it contradicted each other and then an outside source (the EU post 2002) was "retconning" it to fix the problem.

In reality, as you say, since each movie was made after the other and he was making it up as he went along, he retconned his own movies and left the contradiction hanging, making the EU explanation "necessary" (and stupid).

Lucas can't keep his own story straight and the fanboys can't bear to let any of the EU be "left out" hence the gymnastics and duct tape.


Yeah, we don't really disagree. My bad.