[diligent_d]

I loved it when Threepio and the Battle Droid switched heads/bodies.

Loved. It.

[jariten]

My girlfriend liked it too.

[diligent_d]

</sarcasm>

[Sailor Abbey]

I too thought you were being serious.

[diligent_d]

What, really???

I figured that since I placed the "screaming with unbridled anger" emoticon right after the sentence, people would have caught on that I was kidding.

How do I truly feel about the scene? Starts with a C and ends with Contempt.

[Little Nippatiz]

52) The Abilities of the Force.---
Interesting in light of the prequels and also in Empire and Jedi with objects being thrown about using the force, that the force is not used once in this way in 'New Hope' by Ob-1. What better way to convince a farm boy to join him then to levitate something . Heck, it worked for Anikin to get a babe to marry him.
Why no Force-Push or Force-throw to help out Luke in the Cantina, instead of attracting attention with a Jedi light saber.
Why not flip the tracker beam control switch off from the Falcon instaed of sneaking around a stormtrooper and office filled Death Star? I guess the argument can be made that he didn't want to alert Vader by using the Force except that he was alerted any way and would of known it. In Jedi, Luke new he was "endangering the mission" by Vader sensing him. So OB-1 might as well of just thought -flipped the switch and waited, since he said his "distenty follows a different path". He knew he was about to encounter Darth.

And why on the subject, why don't Jedi when dueling or fighting use the ablitie to move things, do so in a manner to hit the off button on a opponents weapon. Or redirect laser blasts from hitting them. Crossing wires in battle droids or enemy ships to short out instead of fighting since they keepers of the peace.

That's why New Hope stands alone for me as a great movie and the Force need not be questioned beyond it's mysterious explanation that Ob-1 gives. Beyond that movie, Lucas gave the Force way too much power that can't help be questioned when not used.




53) Jedi Uniform? ---
When first viewing a New Hope and the OT, it appeared that OB-1 wore robes to blend in with the locals of Tatoone. Good idea while in hiding.
And Yoda lived in a swamp for years and only needed rags.Makes since.
But the prequels start with most Jedi wearing robes everywhere. Is this the Jedi Uniform? Why else where bulky robes and cloaks walking around the Jedi Temple or city life in Couresant.
And if it is a Jedi uniform, why would OB-1 keep wearing it while in hiding and storm troopers about on Tatoone and the Death Star?

[Sailor Abbey]

53) Jedi Uniform? ---
When first viewing a New Hope and the OT, it appeared that OB-1 wore robes to blend in with the locals of Tatoone. Good idea while in hiding.
And Yoda lived in a swamp for years and only needed rags.Makes since.
But the prequels start with most Jedi wearing robes everywhere. Is this the Jedi Uniform? Why else where bulky robes and cloaks walking around the Jedi Temple or city life in Couresant.
And if it is a Jedi uniform, why would OB-1 keep wearing it while in hiding and storm troopers about on Tatoone and the Death Star?

Yeah and why do they let Anakin wear black leather under his cloak? Oh I get it *slaps forehead* hes going to turn out to be a bad guy!

[KurganX]

Yeah and why do they let Anakin wear black leather under his cloak? Oh I get it *slaps forehead* hes going to turn out to be a bad guy!

Well when Luke wore black in ROTJ it was symbolic, but at this time we had no idea what the "Jedi Uniform" was supposed to be. TPM causes the inconsistency by making Tatooine desert robes the "uniform" of many (but not all) Jedi. Sure, in real life, many monastic orders evolved from desert hermits, who happened to wear the outfits of those who would live in the desert, and this carried over even to monks living in monasteries. BUT, in terms of somebody hiding out, you'd think they would have picked something a little less obvious, even something as simple as a different colored robe or something. Luke wears white while living on tatooine. Choose something a little less like the Jedi standard. The prequels "fix" the black clothing thing by giving us Jedi in AOTC who wear black and are not "bad guys."

52) The Abilities of the Force.---
Interesting in light of the prequels and also in Empire and Jedi with objects being thrown about using the force, that the force is not used once in this way in 'New Hope' by Ob-1. What better way to convince a farm boy to join him then to levitate something . Heck, it worked for Anikin to get a babe to marry him. Why no Force-Push or Force-throw to help out Luke in the Cantina, instead of attracting attention with a Jedi light saber.

Why not flip the tracker beam control switch off from the Falcon instaed of sneaking around a stormtrooper and office filled Death Star? I guess the argument can be made that he didn't want to alert Vader by using the Force except that he was alerted any way and would of known it. In Jedi, Luke new he was "endangering the mission" by Vader sensing him. So OB-1 might as well of just thought -flipped the switch and waited, since he said his "distenty follows a different path". He knew he was about to encounter Darth.

And why on the subject, why don't Jedi when dueling or fighting use the ablitie to move things, do so in a manner to hit the off button on a opponents weapon.

Yes, but since the abilities of Jedi are inconsistent within the OT, it's not really an inconsistency here. This is the same as the inconsistency with the PT. Why do they not use Force Push on the Droidekas and run from them instead? Why don't they ever use Force Speed again? Etc. Why not levitate the person in combat always instead of just once or twice? (Dooku is a cheater??) We don't know enough about the Force to really say "why don't they do this over and over again" but it's the same type of problem superheroes have... conveniently forgetting about some power they've demonstrated in the past, to serve the plot/action, or suddenly having a new power to get them out of some jam because the story calls for it, not because it is consistent.

Obi-Wan does use the mind trick to impress Luke, but he draws the saber (not using the force, just using a weapon). Perhaps the artistic intent was to show a range of abilities of the Jedi and that Ben, being the wise sage that he was, always knew the "right" ability to use when. But that's outside the movie itself and so only speculation.

Anyway, what I'm saying is, the "inconsistent use of the Force" is an intertrilogy and intermovie problem, not one that springs up because of the Prequel trilogy (that is, the PT being inconsistent with the OT).

Or redirect laser blasts from hitting them. Crossing wires in battle droids or enemy ships to short out instead of fighting since they keepers of the peace.

We do see Vader redirect blasts, but he's the only one we see doing this. We never see this in the PT either. Some have speculated that it's something about Vader's gauntlets, others say it's a unique ability only he possesses. In any case, it's unexplained, but we never see it again, so it's not really an inconsistency. As to "crossing wires in droids" perhaps you're referring to the Clone Wars series, since we never see such a thing happening in the movies. Battle Droids get pushed, and possibly even mind tricked (that one's a matter of interpretation, based on early scripts which did have them mind-trickable), but not destroyed or disabled with thought alone. In a deleted scene (not on the TPM DVD), the Jedi have to attack the control ship directly to try to disable the droids, they can't just mind trick the guy from orbit to hit the button to shut them down. And yet Vader can look at a view screen and choke the guy on another ship (or part of the same ship). Being keepers of the peace doesn't mean they can't use violence themselves to solve problems. Anyway, at the time of the OT, the Jedi aren't really keepers of the peace anymore, since they're all but extinct and the Empire is in control.

That's why New Hope stands alone for me as a great movie and the Force need not be questioned beyond it's mysterious explanation that Ob-1 gives. Beyond that movie, Lucas gave the Force way too much power that can't help be questioned when not used.

Fine, but remember we're comparing the trilogies, not individual movies. We're saying that ANH+ESB+ROTJ is one "reality" and then comparing it to the "reality" of TPM+AOTC+ROTS and seeing the conflicts between the two, beyond stylistics, themes or special effects gaffes.

53) Jedi Uniform? ---
When first viewing a New Hope and the OT, it appeared that OB-1 wore robes to blend in with the locals of Tatoone. Good idea while in hiding.
And Yoda lived in a swamp for years and only needed rags.Makes since.
But the prequels start with most Jedi wearing robes everywhere. Is this the Jedi Uniform? Why else where bulky robes and cloaks walking around the Jedi Temple or city life in Couresant.
And if it is a Jedi uniform, why would OB-1 keep wearing it while in hiding and storm troopers about on Tatoone and the Death Star?

The "they are imitating real life monks" is a fine explanation, but it's never addressed in the movies. Maybe it would have been silly to have little Anakin say "why are you all dressed like in the desert?" And Qui Gon could say "the first bendu monks were desert hermits, we wear the uniform as a symbol of our fidelity to the force by living a simple life of service" or something like that. Or Anakin could have commented, upon donning his new Jedi robe "I feel right at home in these clothes" and Obi-Wan could say "As a slave from a poor planet you were used to living a harsh life without possessions, we Jedi seek to employ such a model of living voluntarily, as the first Jedi did, living on planets much like your's" and that would have done nicely. But without an explanation, yeah, it seems incongruous. Are Jedi with different uniforms from different orders of Knights or something? Are the Jedi an umbrella organization? Do they have strict doctrine or are there variations of Jedi from different planets that have different beliefs and practices? See, now that we have Jedi who wear black leather and halter tops, we have no idea if there's a real uniform or not. And even if there is variation, why do so many choose Tatooine style robes? It's unexplained. But what we do know is, most Jedi dress similarly to Uncle Owen, which means Obi-Wan sticks out even more for a guy who's supposed to be in hiding.

Yoda seems quite alone on his remote world, so it doesn't matter what he wears. We don't get to see much of the planet, but we know there isn't any cities or technology, just "massive lifeform readings." Tatooine has a huge population in comparison. Luke puts on a brown robe over his black outfit. But we could guess that he's imitating Ben in some way, or that simply, this is Tatooine (he doesn't wear the brown robe anywhere else in the film). Jedi in the prequels wear their uniform at all times, even in the cockpit (Luke changes to his pilot's outfit when he gets into the cockpit). Obi-Wan's outfit does change somewhat between movies though, but he retains the same basic color scheme and they are all similar variants to the clothing he and uncle Owen wear in ANH.

I hope I'm not being annoying by addressing some of these points. But I'm really not interested in between movie conflicts, only between trilogy conflicts, here.

[civilian_number_two]

I'm not going to defend two of my poiints, since I think they stand on their own, despite an attempt to attack them. The "son of suns" citation is the best comment proving that Luke was a predestined hero, but that's not in the movies and it meant precious little in the novelisation anyhow. I agree that Luke changed from bing the son of an important pilot to the son of Darth Vader some time between STAR WARS and EMPIRE. I agree that this major point is an inconsistency between STAR WARS and ALL of the other movies, not between the OT and the PT. However the "magic blood" business appeared no sooner than Episode One, and is a change in focus from the order of the earlier stories.

The think I want to defend is the bit about Obi Wan and lightsabers. The idea that lightsabers existed in a more civilised age is right there in STAR WARS, in Ben's description of the weapon. The idea that it is an exclusively Jedi/Sith weapon doesn't come up at all in the Original Trilogy. By the PT, any use of the Force, once something available to all, is attributed to Jedi/Sith, hence Watto's crack about the mind trick in Episode One. Ben pulling a lightsaber in the Cantina is unusual only in the sense that most folks carried blasters. Essentially Ben was a Samurai warrior in a Wild West saloon. But folks around him should not have been reacting like they'd just seen a Jedi Knight - in fact, they didn't. There is little to no reaction, since casual murder in frontier bars was commonplace. At least, that's how it looked in STAR WARS, wherein two folks at least are killed in that bar on that day alone. The police involvement has nothing to do with the killings, either; Stormtroopers arrive only to look for the droids, and follow up unusual activity since that tends to follow fugitives. STAR WARS definitely leaned on Samurai fiction, at least until Lucas pretended it hadn't, and in Samurai fiction it wasn't only the Samurai who carried swords.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 03 April 2006 - 05:13 PM

[Little Nippatiz]

I hope I'm not being annoying by addressing some of these points. But I'm really not interested in between movie conflicts, only between trilogy conflicts, here.



Jarring inconsistencies between films within OT trilogy would of been a good time for Lucas to correct in the PT, but didn't. Instead of creating a saga, it comes off as adventures with many different sets of changing rules that balances on, and crosses a thin line between films and trilogys that play more like James Bond films with a new set of gadgets each time out, but we still argue over which Bond actor was best.

[barend]

I figured that since I placed the "screaming with unbridled anger" emoticon right after the sentence, people would have caught on that I was kidding.

you know I designed and drew that one. that's my contribution to the site.

How do I truly feel about the scene? Starts with a C and ends with Contempt.

for me it also starts with a 'c' and ends in a 't'

[KurganX]

I'm not going to defend two of my poiints, since I think they stand on their own, despite an attempt to attack them. The "son of suns" citation is the best comment proving that Luke was a predestined hero, but that's not in the movies and it meant precious little in the novelisation anyhow. I agree that Luke changed from bing the son of an important pilot to the son of Darth Vader some time between STAR WARS and EMPIRE. I agree that this major point is an inconsistency between STAR WARS and ALL of the other movies, not between the OT and the PT. However the "magic blood" business appeared no sooner than Episode One, and is a change in focus from the order of the earlier stories.

Right, but if you're going to say midichlorians are the inconsistency, then just say that and list it as a seperate one, not "Luke was not supposed to be a predestined hero" which he was supposed to be from Star Wars all the way back to the 1976 novel, and is not addressed at all in the prequels (Luke's just some kid he had with Padme). The "son of the suns" thing is not explained in the movie, and it's an easter egg. And people who listen to it won't get it unless they have read the novel (then they'll think either Lucas had the "Vader is the chosen one" prophecy figured out all the way back in 1976, which is utter nonsense, or that it is referring to Luke). That's all I meant by all that verbage, really. "Why didn't Obi-Wan test Luke's blood to see if he had a high midichlorian count? Oops, sorry kid, I guess you just didn't take after your old man."

The think I want to defend is the bit about Obi Wan and lightsabers. The idea that lightsabers existed in a more civilised age is right there in STAR WARS, in Ben's description of the weapon. The idea that it is an exclusively Jedi/Sith weapon doesn't come up at all in the Original Trilogy.

Let me see if I recall the dialouge:

"Your father's lightsaber.
Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it.
This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight, not as clumsy or random as a blaster, an elegant weapon, from a more civilized age."

The novelisation goes on to explain about them being in widespread use at one time and still are in some quarters, as an aside, but that's the novel.

By the PT, any use of the Force, once something available to all, is attributed to Jedi/Sith, hence Watto's crack about the mind trick in Episode One. Ben pulling a lightsaber in the Cantina is unusual only in the sense that most folks carried blasters. Essentially Ben was a Samurai warrior in a Wild West saloon. But folks around him should not have been reacting like they'd just seen a Jedi Knight - in fact, they didn't. There is little to no reaction, since casual murder in frontier bars was commonplace. At least, that's how it looked in STAR WARS, wherein two folks at least are killed in that bar on that day alone. The police involvement has nothing to do with the killings, either; Stormtroopers arrive only to look for the droids, and follow up unusual activity since that tends to follow fugitives.

Han Solo: "Looks like someone's beginning to take an interest in your handiwork."

Are you saying that non-Jedi use the Force? We don't see any evidence of that in the OT, unless you mean Leia (who presumably will be trained as a Jedi). If you have something of the Force, either the Jedi or those Dark Side guys are going to snap you up. Luke seems like a normal enough person until Obi-Wan starts training him. Watto's thing was stupid, maybe it should be an inconsistency, its precedent is Jabba, but Jabba never says WHY "your mind powers will not work on me boy." We all assumed it was (via Obi-Wan's comment to Luke) that Jabba was not "weak minded." In TPM Watto claims that his species is immune to mind tricks (and presumably Hutts are also immune by virtue of their biology). Of course some have tried to avoid this interpretation by saying Watto was just using ethnic snobbery ("Your tricks won't work on me, I'm an Italian, we're all smart mofos!").

STAR WARS definitely leaned on Samurai fiction, at least until Lucas pretended it hadn't, and in Samurai fiction it wasn't only the Samurai who carried swords.

Right, but we still can't look to Samurai fiction to declare a betrayal of thematic elements in this exercise. Do it for another thread on thematic influence inconsistency. The Samurai influence isn't mentioned in the movie itself, so it's an interpretation by default. Propping up an argument with outside material that may or may not be beholden to the text is primary reason I'm avoiding the EU stuff.

I should probably make a clarification about my statements about inconsistencies in Jedi Power between trilogies. Their force powers don't bother me, it's more the behavior during saber fighting. It's easier to dimiss Luke as an inexperienced fighter, but Vader and Obi-Wan no. Lucas's explanation that he intended this because they were old men and one was a cyborg doesn't work. Grievous seems pretty agile (doesn't flip about but he's danged fast), as do Dooku, Yoda, and Palpatine. Sure, he lacked CGI back then, but he did have stuntmen and they were able to make Superman fly around this time too (only a year after Star Wars). Mary Martin flew as Peter Pan in 1960! We have no idea why they don't use X force power when it would see the right time to use it within trilogies, but at least we know they could have moved faster during a duel and leaped around, but they don't, so it's an inconsistency.

This post has been edited by KurganX: 03 April 2006 - 09:15 PM

[barend]

Are you saying that non-Jedi use the Force? We don't see any evidence of that in the OT, unless you mean Leia (who presumably will be trained as a Jedi). If you have something of the Force, either the Jedi or those Dark Side guys are going to snap you up. Luke seems like a normal enough person until Obi-Wan starts training him. Watto's thing was stupid, maybe it should be an inconsistency, its precedent is Jabba, but Jabba never says WHY "your mind powers will not work on me boy." We all assumed it was (via Obi-Wan's comment to Luke) that Jabba was not "weak minded." In TPM Watto claims that his species is immune to mind tricks (and presumably Hutts are also immune by virtue of their biology). Of course some have tried to avoid this interpretation by saying Watto was just using ethnic snobbery ("Your tricks won't work on me, I'm an Italian, we're all smart mofos!").
tuff.

actually i think you'll find, that by this archive shot;



and this action figure reinacment;



that luke was unable to use his powers on jabba because jabba had the 'higher ground advantage'

This post has been edited by barend: 03 April 2006 - 09:21 PM

[Despondent]

[KurganX]

Brilliant. You win!