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Definitive List of Inconsistences between the OT and PT?

#16 User is offline   Sailor Abbey Icon

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 10:03 PM

QUOTE (jariten @ Apr 1 2006, 09:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Moff Tarkin: "You my friend are all thats left of their religion", when he was standing right next to Sidious in RotS! (unless he didnt know that he was a sith...)


I love GM Tarkin.

Sorry, just thought I'd throw that out there.

This post has been edited by Sailor Abbey: 01 April 2006 - 10:04 PM

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#17 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 11:08 PM

Great thread! "Fan patches" tongue.gif .
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#18 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 01 April 2006 - 11:56 PM

First off to defend one of my reasons "The Clone War" is what Yoda calls it in AOTC. It's never mentioned again. In ANH it's called "The Clone WarS" only. A small inconsistency, but one nevertheless.

As to the "your father wanted you to have this" not being an inconsistency, sure you can rationalize it as a lie, which is how it's currently rationalized. But see, before we got this business about Jedi not being allowed to marry, we could have assumed Anakin was married, his wife maybe was pregnant with twins, but they were hidden from him before they were born. So either he left her (or she left him) before she gave birth, or he thought the kids died at birth or something. That's how I figured it would be dealt with, not Padme dying in childbirth. But anyway, yeah, I suppose you could just chalk this up as another lie concocted by Obi-Wan to flesh out the "your father and Darth Vader are seperate people" story he was telling Luke.

But the way he drags Owen into it implies it is describing something a little more real. Owen this, Owen that. Maybe he knows that Owen is going to keep the secret and they've worked out ahead of time this fake mutual antagonism between them that they'll front to Luke to keep him from figuring it all out, who knows. But most of us got the impression that there was a real feud between them, and we just never got to see that in the prequels. It's like the guys barely knew each other, really. Owen knew Anakin about as well as he knew Obi-Wan it seemed, according to the prequels.

That's the thing with these inconsistencies, if we had known what was rolling around in Lucas mind ahead of time we wouldn't have to guess. The movies decieve us in a way and give us an explanation that just seems more of a stretch or doesn't fit at all. But I'll stop soap boxing on that for a minute for fear of derailing this...

QUOTE (jariten @ Apr 1 2006, 10:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It probably would've come in handy in the arena on Geonosis.

ANYWAY! not trying to derail the thread or anything. So heres another

Moff Tarkin: "You my friend are all thats left of their religion", when he was standing right next to Sidious in RotS! (unless he didnt know that he was a sith...)


I hate to sound like an apologist here, but I don't consider that an inconsistency, because in the conversation he's explicitly talking about the Jedi (not the Sith), and we all know Palpatine was a Sith, never a Jedi! The term "Sith" is never even mentioned in the classic trilogy! So he's just some "Dark Side" guy I guess for lack of a better term. Anakin was "once a Jedi" but the Emperor is simply a mystery.

On the other hand, at the time ROTJ came out, we didn't really know what "the Sith" were or supposed to be (the only one ever called "Dark Lord of the Sith" in the non-movie material was Vader, and he was considered the ONLY Dark Lord). So for all we knew ROTJ was casting Palpatine as a "Jedi." However in ROTJ Palpatine acts like a "Jedi" is something different than he is ("so be it.. 'Jedi'...).

So anyway, yeah I don't consider it a real contradiction. Tarkin was obviously mistaken, since Ben was alive, as was Yoda, but anyway. It's a fine point, but I'm not counting this one. If we count all the possible contradictions WITHIN the classic trilogy, we'll go nuts! wink.gif

Please feel free to call me on this one if you think I'm being in any way hypocritical. My original point was that these were inconsistencies if you just watched the movies, and didn't look for explanations in some official EU source, George Lucas interview or whatnot. You treated the classic trilogy as one "coherent whole" and compared it to the Prequel Trilogy as a second "reality."


Btw, in regards to Yoda, it sort of depends on how you interpret the line.

He says "You will go to the Dagabah system. There you will visit Yoda the Jedi Master who instructed me."

I think the word is visit, but the rest should be correct. Now if you add two commas, this is how many (most?) of us fans interpreted it over the years:

"Yoda, the Jedi Master, who instructed me." Yoda was THE Jedi Master. For 800 years, he trained Jedi. He trained them all! This jibbed with how the early scripts portrayed the Jedi (or Bendu or whatever) Knights as being the sons of this wise sage (usually the Starkiller). Of course if render it like this the meaning changes:

"Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me." So Yoda was one of perhaps several Jedi Masters, and the one who instructed (trained) Obi-Wan.

Either interpretation was rendered inconsistent when we see Qui Gon as the one who trained Obi-Wan, then the attempted retcon in AOTC is that we see Yoda training a bunch of youngsters. Then the EU explains that Yoda trains everybody when they're little then hands them off to a "master" to train them further. The trouble is little Anakin doesn't get trained by Yoda, he goes straight to Qui Gon (sort of) and then Obi-Wan. Special case? But since the movie just leaves it a mess, it's an inconsistency.

Yoda trained Obi-Wan. No wait, no he didn't, it was Qui Gon, whom we've never heard of before.


Carry on, carry on... wink.gif Keep 'em comin'...

This post has been edited by KurganX: 02 April 2006 - 12:21 AM

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 12:26 AM

The ramblings of an old desert hermit cover many sins. wink.gif
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#20 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 12:35 AM

Right, a lot of things we can chalk up to the person speaking was ignorant, crazy or lying. But that's the thing, I'm saying that the lie isn't revealed in the classic trilogy... and then it's made a lie in the prequel trilogy, that rubs us the wrong way. We don't expect it, it's an inconsistency. I'm applying a double standard to the Prequel trilogy that I don't apply to the classic trilogy. I'm forgiving things that were made lies in ANH by ESB/ROTJ, but not things in ANH/ESB/ROTJ that were made lies by the prequels. I'm mostly doing this because the prequels were made 16-22 years after the fact, when Lucas had clearly changed his mind about what the story should really be about, and had shelved a lot of the creative people he had help him the first time around (not everyone, but several prominent people).

Obi-Wan lied about his master to give get Luke to listen to Yoda. He lied about Owen to get Luke to distrust Owen and go with Obi-Wan instead. Leia lied about her mother to try to get closer to Luke with a bonding moment. Leia lied to Obi-Wan about serving her father to flatter him. Obi-Wan lied about the Republic and the Jedi Knights to make them sound more impressive. Motti lied about the Force to make fun of Vader.

Everything could be a lie! "The Jedi are all but extinct" ... well actually there are thousands of them, in fact they're doing just fine. "No, I am your Father." Actually Vader isn't his father, it was a navigator on a spice freighter. Vader was lying, and Ben was lying about lying! Leia isn't Lukes sister, Luke was mistaken and Ben was lying (notice how he never actually said Leia was his sister, he only says "your insight serves you well." It can just go on and on! So that's why I'm trying to err on the side of caution and assume the characters are telling the truth in sincerity unless they're shown to be lying within the original movies.

These are rational ways to explain away the inconsistencies, but they're just that, attempts to explain them away. wink.gif

I'm more interested in building up a list of the inconsistencies so we can have the out on the table. Then fanboys, gushers and everyone else can spend their time if they want to, explaining them away.

Just so this post isn't entirely useless, here's another one:
(can fix the numbers later)

36) Obi-Wan says that Darth Vader was "a pupil of mine until he turned to evil." Anakin stopped being Obi-Wan's pupil and was a full Jedi before he turned to evil. He does call Obi-Wan "my master." But Obi-Wan tells him (also in RotS) that he's a far better Jedi than he could ever hope to be. Vader says in ANH that when he left Ben he was "But the learner" when in fact they were more like equals or partners and friends as portrayed in ROTS (or "brothers" as Obi-Wan puts it). Originally it implied Obi-Wan was still training him or else he was much superior.

37) Why hasn't Chewbacca heard of General Kenobi? Granted it was a big war, but with so few Jedi in the Clone War, surely he should have at least heard about him from Yoda (for all we know the only time he actually saw Obi-Wan was as a hologram during those war briefing scenes on Kashyyyk). Yet he lets Han mock him as an "old fossil" in ANH. Then again, the one time the two "talk" is when they are in the Cantina, and he introduces him to Han Solo. This might not be an inconsistency. Still, if he knows who Obi-Wan really is, you'd think he'd stick up for him, rather than treat him like any two-bit customer.

38) What happened to the graves outside the Lars homestead? There wasn't just one for Shmi, but a few others. And since Clieg is gone by the time of ANH, we assume he must have died and been buried as well. Even if he died someplace else, they would presumably have erected a grave marker in the "family plot." If the graves were destroyed by a sandstorm or Tusken raid or something, wouldn't they just rebuild them?

39) Okay, Yoda is a hypocrit. I could buy it if these are just the lofty ideals of the Jedi that are often broken, but since it's Yoda himself that does it repeatedly in the prequels, I'm going to call it an inconsistency, "a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack." Realistic explanation (compare to lots of modern politics and military ethics vs. reality), but still. We assumed that the Jedi were defensive fighters, who didn't "cheat" by using the Force to attack their opponents like Vader and the Emperor did, and Luke using the Force to attack was him getting dangerously close to the Dark Side (as if the subtle hints of the black clothing, mechanical hand and anger during combat weren't enough). In the Prequels we learn this is no big deal and all the Jedi do it, even Yoda.

40) You'll laugh, 'cause this one is a bit of a stretch, but... Hairbuns! Yes, it might just be a really common hairstyle among women of the Republic/Empire, and we see so few women, but still. Anakin is looking at his (unrecognized) daughter, with the same hairstyle worn a few times by his beloved deceased wife. Doesn't ring a bell? Right, his artificial vision and his hatred and clouded vision prevent him from recognizing her. Still. wink.gif

This post has been edited by KurganX: 02 April 2006 - 01:03 AM

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#21 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 01:46 AM

Grabbing at straws much?
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#22 User is offline   Gerhard Icon

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 06:53 AM

A debatable one in honor of Jariten.

41) In the OT Special effects are used to help tell a story, in the PT the story is used to show the special effects... or Yoda would ever fight if he was a puppet?

This post has been edited by Gerhard: 02 April 2006 - 06:53 AM

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#23 User is offline   Gerhard Icon

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 07:31 AM

QUOTE (KurganX @ Apr 2 2006, 06:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
39) Okay, Yoda is a hypocrit. I could buy it if these are just the lofty ideals of the Jedi that are often broken, but since it's Yoda himself that does it repeatedly in the prequels, I'm going to call it an inconsistency, "a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack." Realistic explanation (compare to lots of modern politics and military ethics vs. reality), but still. We assumed that the Jedi were defensive fighters, who didn't "cheat" by using the Force to attack their opponents like Vader and the Emperor did, and Luke using the Force to attack was him getting dangerously close to the Dark Side (as if the subtle hints of the black clothing, mechanical hand and anger during combat weren't enough). In the Prequels we learn this is no big deal and all the Jedi do it, even Yoda.


Loved this one, I felt this throughout the entire PT.

Remember when Kenobi went after Anakin, he did not hesitated to start a fight and it was Anakin, the Sith, that tried to avoid confrontation. This is such a big contradiction with OT.

This post has been edited by Gerhard: 02 April 2006 - 07:32 AM

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#24 User is offline   Gerhard Icon

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 07:54 AM

42) Luke does not know anything about his father, however at some point he should have heard of Anakin Skywalker the only human ever to compete (and win) in a Pod Race.

43) The Sith rule of two, never suggested in the OT, and both Vader and Palpy had plans for Luke to "Join Them" (even if it was a hypocritical plan by them)

44) The Subtle attempts by Lucas to show that Vader's kids were to be used later against him and the Dark Side (as part of a plan by Yoda and Kenoby), however the events in ANH seem completely random since Kenoby asked Luke to learn about the Force because some droid knocked on Luke's door.

45) Anakin at 9 already deal with the Force, even if he was unware, was capable of using it. His son, at 18/19 only started dealing with the Force after some lessons from Kenoby. (of course we don't know the Midiclorian count of Luke, not even Lucas laugh.gif )

46) Luke was too old too train at 20 (or something) Since Jedi's start training at 4 (or less) 20 something seems more than too old to train, even Anakin at 9 was "too old"

This post has been edited by Gerhard: 02 April 2006 - 08:01 AM

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#25 User is offline   azerty Icon

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 08:30 AM

Lando says that the Falcon is the "Fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy", yet Solo claims to have made "a lot of special modifications" himself.. Who is telling the truth? (Ok maybe they were partners and Solo did the modifications and Lando did the flying or something.)

How about CHEW-Backa's name changing to Chew-BAH-cah for no apparent reason, (I think his name is only ever spoken twice, once by Kenobi in the cantina and once by Lando on Bespin, both pronounced correctly), so which EU tosser decided to change it?

or the rebel blockade runner somehow acquiring the ultra lame name Tantive 4, (more EU crap)

or Princess Lia somehow deciding that her name is Princess Laya, (more yet again)

or "Imperial Curisers" becoming "Star Destroyers"?

The Extended Universe has a lot to answer for. Gushers take the smallest and most obvious things and make up utterly boring and predictable stories about them, and somehow it becomes incorportated into the story. Take "Clone War" as an example. It's just a name, spoken only once in the original film, that has now taken over the whole damn story. Who is to say that it wan't just a shortened form of "Cyclone War", like "Tractor Beam" being shortened from "Attractor Beam" or "Droid" being short for "Android" or "Vaporator" or "Speeder"? Maybe it is just a name by itself, and never had anything to do with cloning. Nope, to a gusher, clone must be about clones, obviously...

And maybe Mon Mothma's 60 seconds of screen time in Return of the Jedi doesn't somehow give her the right to a name, a history, and a claim to be the leader of the entire rebel alliance. Nope, to a gusher, she ordered that attack on Endor, so she must order all attacks everywhere, and therefore must be the leader, and in fact she must have actually started the rebel alliance too...

(Actually, somebody just said "Hey George, there aren't enough women in these films, and all the libbers are gonna go ballistic!" and Lucas said "You're right, dammit! Hey you... yeah chick-that-usually-brings-me-my-coffee, go and stand up there by that giant squid thing and read these lines...)

And Bothans got the info for the second death star, so they must be masters of disguise, changelings, daring ninja types from the planet of Cunning, obviously...

I'm sure Thgaron will make every effort to correct me, but he would be missing the entire point.

As for Uncle Owen not remembering the droids, I like that one. He seemed totally disinterested in Star Wars, (but that was back when droids were zero class citizens) so why should he remember? I don't remember every washing machine I've ever owned.

Anyway this isn't meant to be a thread derailment, but when you have 25 years of story, and the films only choose to show about week of that time in total, nearly any inconsistancy can be glossed over by saying that the answer lies in the 99% of the story we never get to see
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#26 User is offline   Jejef Thgaron Icon

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 09:18 AM

View Postazerty, on Apr 2 2006, 08:30 AM, said:

Lando says that the Falcon is the "Fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy", yet Solo claims to have made "a lot of special modifications" himself.. Who is telling the truth? (Ok maybe they were partners and Solo did the modifications and Lando did the flying or something.)


It has been modified both before Lando won it and after Han won it from Lando in a sabaac tournament. It is the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy. Solo taught Lando how to pilot the Falcon. They were partners around the time of the Battle of Nar Shaddaa.

View Postazerty, on Apr 2 2006, 08:30 AM, said:

How about CHEW-Backa's name changing to Chew-BAH-cah for no apparent reason, (I think his name is only ever spoken twice, once by Kenobi in the cantina and once by Lando on Bespin, both pronounced correctly), so which EU tosser decided to change it?


Lando can't even pronounce Han's name correctly. Besides, it's a fictional name! Who cares how it's properly pronounced?

View Postazerty, on Apr 2 2006, 08:30 AM, said:

or the rebel blockade runner somehow acquiring the ultra lame name Tantive 4, (more EU crap)


So, Captain Antilles doesn't have the right to name his own flagship?

View Postazerty, on Apr 2 2006, 08:30 AM, said:

or Princess Lia somehow deciding that her name is Princess Laya, (more yet again)


Again... a fictional name.

View Postazerty, on Apr 2 2006, 08:30 AM, said:

or "Imperial Curisers" becoming "Star Destroyers"?


They are the same thing. Always have been.

View Postazerty, on Apr 2 2006, 08:30 AM, said:

The Extended Universe has a lot to answer for. Gushers take the smallest and most obvious things and make up utterly boring and predictable stories about them, and somehow it becomes incorportated into the story. Take "Clone War" as an example. It's just a name, spoken only once in the original film, that has now taken over the whole damn story. Who is to say that it wan't just a shortened form of "Cyclone War", like "Tractor Beam" being shortened from "Attractor Beam" or "Droid" being short for "Android" or "Vaporator" or "Speeder"? Maybe it is just a name by itself, and never had anything to do with cloning. Nope, to a gusher, clone must be about clones, obviously...


Yeah, that's it... the "Cyclone War"! They must have had a bunch of tornadoes fighting on the Republic's side... no... it's about clones.

View Postazerty, on Apr 2 2006, 08:30 AM, said:

And maybe Mon Mothma's 60 seconds of screen time in Return of the Jedi doesn't somehow give her the right to a name, a history, and a claim to be the leader of the entire rebel alliance. Nope, to a gusher, she ordered that attack on Endor, so she must order all attacks everywhere, and therefore must be the leader, and in fact she must have actually started the rebel alliance too...


She did start the Rebel Alliance, along with Bail Organa, Bria Tharen, and a long list of former Senators of the Republic. Why is this considered an inconsistency?

View Postazerty, on Apr 2 2006, 08:30 AM, said:

And Bothans got the info for the second death star, so they must be masters of disguise, changelings, daring ninja types from the planet of Cunning, obviously...


Actually, they are masters of espionage.

View Postazerty, on Apr 2 2006, 08:30 AM, said:

I'm sure Thgaron will make every effort to correct me, but he would be missing the entire point.


I missed the point... were you trying to point out inconsistencies? I haven't seen one on your list, yet.

View Postazerty, on Apr 2 2006, 08:30 AM, said:

As for Uncle Owen not remembering the droids, I like that one. He seemed totally disinterested in Star Wars, (but that was back when droids were zero class citizens) so why should he remember? I don't remember every washing machine I've ever owned.


Maybe he doesn't want to act like he's ever seen C3PO just to be on the safe side... naw, that couldn't be it. Who's gonna actually take the five minutes it would take to track down somebody with the last name Skywalker?

Anyway this isn't meant to be a thread derailment, but when you have 25 years of story, and the films only choose to show about week of that time in total, nearly any inconsistancy can be glossed over by saying that the answer lies in the 99% of the story we never get to see

Every inconsistency the majority of people complain about are covered in the movies and have zero to do with the EU. There may be further explanation in the books, but they are not the important part of the SW universe.
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Posted 02 April 2006 - 09:25 AM

I think the EU is going to get its own definitive list o'inconsistencies thread. If I'm not mistaken, were trying to keep them separate.
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#28 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 04:36 PM

Yes, let's stop trying to explain away all the inconsistencies in this thread and introducing EU stuff. Even though many of these are in the FORM OF A QUESTION that is just RHETORICAL, we are not demanding answers from people in the thread. Obviously a definitive list will require some editing and reposting of the whole thing since we've muddied things up a bit and contested some of the items.

Again, I'm not saying that none of these things can be explained, or that they have never been explained (obviously many of them have, even official explanations). My point is that these are not explained IN THE MOVIES. So a person watching the movies, unless they aren't paying attention or don't care, won't get their answer except by reading some behind the scenes interview, EU book/comic/video game/radio drama/cartoon/script/etc. Since we can't expect every person who watches these movies to have synthesized the accumulated knowledge of the entire franchise, it's not unreasonable to point these out as inconsistencies, even if much of that EU material is considered part of the "canon." We don't excuse the faults of other movies by saying read some other source to explain it. I'm just wanting a "definitive list of inconsistencies" not the retcons or fixes that explain them outside the movies. There's a wikipedia page about this and they have a real problem listing SW inconsistencies because gushers keep editing in their explanations, official or not.

Let's focus on inconsistencies between the Preqel Trilogy viewed as a whole compared to the Classic Trilogy viewed as a whole, without taking retcons or explanations, official or not, into account, that don't come from the movies themselves.

Please number your items to make them easier to pick out, thanks!

47) Why is Leia a Princess when Bail Organa was only a Senator? This is never explained in the movies.

I know I'm being somewhat "ultra literal" with this behind the scenes stuff, but I am typically using the "names of things" even when these aren't literally spoken on screen (ie: calling Bail Organa's ship the Tantive IV, or like those two legged walker things are called "AT-ST's" even though they're never named that onscreen). But that's about as far as I'm willing to go with that. If something is contradicted and not explained or left unexplained by watching the movies, then it's a plot hole or an inconsistency. Special effects gaffes don't count, and inconsistencies within the classic trilogy itself or within the prequel trilogy itself aren't being counted either (such as people pronouncing character names differently, even within the same movie).

One more nitpick, "Clone Wars" is mentioned twice in ANH, once by Luke ("You fought in the Clone Wars?") and once by Leia ("General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars.") A third mention by Luke is just "the wars" ("No my father didn't fight in the wars, he was a navigator on a spice frieghter.") also from ANH. And of course this compared to AOTC's line by Yoda ("Begun the Clone War has."). The EU just calls it Clone WarS again (animated series, video game of the same name), but that's the EU.

QUOTE (jariten @ Apr 2 2006, 01:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Grabbing at straws much?


Nobody asked you to refute or apologize, no offense. If you're just going to whine and gush here, don't bother posting. wink.gif

PS: Jejef Thgaron, can you edit your post? Your quotes didn't get formatted correctly. If not, could a moderator please fix it? His post is very hard to read as a result! sad.gif

This post has been edited by KurganX: 02 April 2006 - 04:51 PM

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 05:35 PM

QUOTE (KurganX @ Apr 2 2006, 10:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know I'm being somewhat "ultra literal" with this behind the scenes stuff, but I am typically using the "names of things" even when these aren't literally spoken on screen (ie: calling Bail Organa's ship the Tantive IV, or like those two legged walker things are called "AT-ST's" even though they're never named that onscreen). But that's about as far as I'm willing to go with that. If something is contradicted and not explained or left unexplained by watching the movies, then it's a plot hole or an inconsistency. Special effects gaffes don't count, and inconsistencies within the classic trilogy itself or within the prequel trilogy itself aren't being counted either (such as people pronouncing character names differently, even within the same movie).

Yes, could we at least stick to inconsistencies in the plot, please? If we start getting into issues like 'the OT relied more on story and the PT on special effects', the list could go on for ever; you have to draw the line somewhere. Also, I think we should keep it to stuff that's actually there in the script, rather than speculation about things like whether Luke could use the Force prior to his training (which is never actually established in the movies).

QUOTE
One more nitpick, "Clone Wars" is mentioned twice in ANH, once by Luke ("You fought in the Clone Wars?") and once by Leia ("General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars.") A third mention by Luke is just "the wars" ("No my father didn't fight in the wars, he was a navigator on a spice frieghter.") also from ANH. And of course this compared to AOTC's line by Yoda ("Begun the Clone War has."). The EU just calls it Clone WarS again (animated series, video game of the same name), but that's the EU.

That's a good point, actually. I thought the word 'wars' was only mentioned the once, which hardly made it seem worth describing as an inconsistency, but it was actually several times.
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The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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Posted 02 April 2006 - 07:59 PM

QUOTE (Sailor Abbey @ Apr 1 2006, 09:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I thought we were going to be spared this crap in this thread.


its THAT hard for some people....
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