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Stream of Consciousness Nitpicking I even pick at the OT

#1 User is offline   Ferris Wiel Icon

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 11:17 AM

Welcome to Lucasfloor, where we paint ourselves into corners and can't get back out. Allow me to share a brief history:

*Killing Obi-Wan
Sure, it heightened the drama and made the Imps seem like they meant business, but eliminating Obi-Wan created all kinds of problems for the training of Luke as a Jedi. The novel (SME), Marvel comics and newspaper strips did a good job of allowing Luke to gradually gain power, but Lucas destroyed all that by...

*Hitting the reset button on Luke's Jedi skills
In the comics and book Luke's skills had progressed quite nicely. He could do some basic Jedi maneuvering and had learned several tricks - a showcase of his power, in some ways, plus he had bumped into a few good mentors, even a "fake" Obi-Wan and his skills had come quite a ways from the parlor tricks of ANH, but then he can't even levitate his lightsaber out of the snow in ESB? Of course that means...

*Luke needed a new trainer
Enter the green dude. Luke has to get Grover to teach him the ways of the Force. I have no problem with Yoda the puppet or even as a Jedi Master, I always thought he filled the role well and Frank Oz did amazing work. As a matter of fact, I would replace Hayden Christensen with a Muppet if I thought it would make the PT better. The problem I have is that Obi-Wan was supposed to be the "Gandalf" in the story he admittedly ripped from LOTR. Why not resurrect him or allow him to train luke in his ethereal form? Another question is raised by this as well. I also wonder at this, there was no mention of going to Dagobah (for obvious reasons like it hadn't been thought up, yet) on Obi-Wan's part, but I would imagine, that after the alleged "failure" of Obi-Wan as a Jedi Master that he speaks of in ROTJ, that it had to be on the agenda. More than that, though, approximately three years passed between ANH and ESB according to official timelines, and in this time Luke didn't learn very much, but then, under Yoda's tutelage...

*Luke learns "everything" in a few days
George Lucas sees time as an abstraction, I'm guessing. That's the only answer I can see. I could imagine Han and Leia staying in the same clothes for a week or so, but much beyond that seems a little silly. I also wonder at the supplies Han keeps aboard the Falcon and how he kept everybody fed for that period of time, especially a Wookie. The nice thing about SW is that it doesn't attempt to explain this stuff a la Star Trek, thus creating more plot holes, instead it is left to the viewer's imagination, the problem, though, is that it leaves the audience wondering exactly how much time passed between Hoth and the rendevous point with the frigate at the end of ESB. Apparently, Yoda was also able to complete Luke's training, but it took the additional nine months of Han's big sleep in the carbonite to hone the skills. I'll try to leave ROTJ alone, because I've read the best list ever about why it sucked, but I have a question...

*Would Obi-Wan have taken both Luke and Leia to train?
I mean, it only stands to reason. If they're brother and sister then he should have been far more concerned about her being directly in the presence of Darth Vader. It's been revealed in books, and even hinted at in the movies that somebody with strong Force sensitivity can be opened to a few broad powers by a period of great duress. I would imagine that being tortured and then watching your home planet and only surviving parent get destroyed at the hands of lunatics would be pretty stressful, so where were the powers? Then again...

*Was Darth Vader really Luke's (let alone Leia's) father in ANH?
Watch the film closely, or even haphazardly, there was no hint at all. It was completely out of left field, now, this isn't to say that it wasn't an interesting (and probably the most famous) plot twist, but all signs point to no. He had Luke on the Death Star, the name Lars came up on Tattooine reports, because they had the 'Droids, I'm sure that local documents even showed that Luke Skywalker resided there. Even when Luke was using the Force it should have been apparent, but then again...

*The Force not has not been very well explained (or demonstrated)
As to its limitations (unfortunately reminding me of the continuum transfunctioner in Dude, Where's My Car) "its mystery is only exceeded by its power," (strangely, this is also a Fox film). Anakin can break the laws of Physics in a free fall, but the Emperor cannot survive a drop down a reactor core; Yoda can, at 900 years old engage in a massively (stupid) acrobatic duel but Obi (50-60ish) and Darth (40ish) in ANH look like a pair of geriatrics, Qui-Gon can tell of Anakin's Force power through a few discussions and a couple of little demonstrations (plus the midichlorians, but let's not touch that), but Vader, the ultimate Jedi hunter, can't tell that a)Leia is Force sensitive and b)she is his daughter? None of it makes sense.

What is a little comforting about the perceived contrivances and problems in ANH and ESB is that the majority of these come about due to problems in ROTJ, TPM and AOTC and not the other way around. Some solutions to these problems:

1. ESB should have allowed some progression of skill in the period after ANH. He shouldn't have been as completely helpless as he was after three years of being open to the Force.
2. The training with Yoda should have taken place between Eps V and VI or Luke at least shouldn't have been told "your skills are complete" and "already know you that which you need," perhaps it would have been more dramatic in ROTJ for Luke to have been a virtual novice taking out Darth or getting a last key piece of training information. Instead, they have a little chat about families and death, and then Obi stops by to catch up and gossip.
3. Create some accountability for those writing about Force powers. Jedi should have been either legendary and powerful magicians (but how could they have been forgotten so quickly) or lesser, but still powerful, warriors, much like the samurai, who had an edge by being able to tap into the power of the Force, but whose demonstration would never be so obvious as falling 300 stories and surviving the impact.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

--FW
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#2 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 02:37 PM

Wow, the posts in this forum are really getting comprehensive. cool.gif

Well put, Ferris Weil. It makes me wonder if we would even question the OT so much if it weren't for the shabbiness of the Prequels. I, for one, was a lot more willing to let these things in the OT slide before the Prequels came out and started making me question everything, unfortunately including the OT.
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#3 User is offline   Ferris Wiel Icon

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 02:57 PM

QUOTE (Chefelf @ Mar 10 2004, 02:37 PM)
Wow, the posts in this forum are really getting comprehensive. cool.gif

Well put, Ferris Weil. It makes me wonder if we would even question the OT so much if it weren't for the shabbiness of the Prequels. I, for one, was a lot more willing to let these things in the OT slide before the Prequels came out and started making me question everything, unfortunately including the OT.

I'm glad you appreciate it, and you're right, if the glare of the errors in the PT hadn't illuminated the little troublesome nuances of the OT (ANH and ESB particularly) then we wouldn't even be having these discussions anyway, except in a light-hearted debate.

Instead, I, for one, am pretty angry with GL and his handling of his franchise. It isn't as if I have any claim or right to his work, I understand they are his own, but still, it infuriates me that somebody who had such promise in his early days, and even still has a degree of ability as a "master storyteller" - putting together the big pieces - would manhandle the details and then use the primer paint of CGI and putty of nifty little action sequences to cover up the dents in his work.

--FW
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#4 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 02:59 PM

I still stand by the fact that ROTJ was a great movie and great conclusion to the trilogy. I won't argue that here though (unless you want to and are prepared for some very long and passionate posts smile.gif). As for Dagobah, I never really thought about it before, but I have to agree with you. The timeline does seem very skewed there, since the way it is told seems to imply that the timelines should be equal though they aren't at many points.

Also, with Luke's progression in the Force, first of all, the comics and books, especially back then, do not count. Now they get more credence, but back then they were just little entertaining stories set between the movies. Also you mention Luke's "parlor tricks" in ANH. As far as I know, he was barely able to do ANYTHING with the Force in ANH other than heighten his perception a little to destroy the Death Star. So it is understandable that, without a good mentor, he would only have parlor tricks in ESB, which is why he needed Yoda. I personally think that is fine, since the comics really didn't come into play in my mind, and I'm sure they didn't in Lucas's.

As far as Vader being Luke (and then Leia's) father, I think that, as with any revelation that truly wasn't planned out (I don't care what you say George), if you think hard enough you can find holes. If Vader was Luke's father and knew the Lars's, then why didn't he jump when they were mentioned in ANH? If he was Leia's father, why didn't he sense her Force capability? Actually I think the second one does have an answer. Leia's Force ability truly was latent, even if it was strong, because it was not even recognized throughout her entire life. She instead followed a path of politics and royalty, not even remotely the path of the Jedi. This kind of latent power couldn't really be sensed that strongly, and even if he could sense she was strong with the Force, she was not a threat to become a Jedi. I'm sure there were many people, even imperials, who had latent force abilities, but were left alone because without Jedi, they knew these abilities could never be developed. So having thought about it, I think that maybe Vader being Luke's father has a few more holes than them being brother and sister (though that just shows how Lucas is a bit perverted or gutsy, whatever way you choose to look at it lol), but neither should be analyzed too deeply, and should just be accepted for the sake of the story.
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#5 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 08:48 PM

I think I will always remain the median point between Vwing and civilian_number_two on the ROTJ thing. I think it is the most flawed of the OT movies but I do not think it is in any way on the same level as the prequels. It has a lot of problems but I think that there are enough good points to make up for a lot of them.

The Ewoks still should have been Wookies. It would have made for a far better and believable battle scene.
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#6 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 09:14 PM

QUOTE (Chefelf @ Mar 10 2004, 08:48 PM)
The Ewoks still should have been Wookies. It would have made for a far better and believable battle scene.

Well you're going to get your wish in Episode III, he's having a huge Wookie battle scene on Kashykk. Of course I think what you meant was you think it would have been a good scene when he was a good moviemaker, or was at least able to let others helm the movies, but oh well biggrin.gif. I still don't think the Ewoks are bad at all (except for the one scene where one of them steals the speeder bike, I liked it when I was five, but it's the one thing in Jedi that I truly do think is juvenile and not that funny as comic relief). I think the scene where 3P0 tells the story is one of the best of the trilogy, and it is one of the only attempts to tie the movies together. In ANH, of course you all remember, 3P0 tells Luke, "I'm afraid I'm not very good at telling stories," or something to that effect. Then we see all the adventures he's on since, and we see his full evolution in ROTJ when he recounts their journeys. I just thought it was a very endearing scene.

As for the battle itself, before I defend it, let me say this: I do not think it is a great battle scene. I think it could have been done much better. That being said, I still thought it was entertaining enough. I never had any problems with the sticks and stones taking down the stormtroopers until I started coming on message boards. And watching it again, I still don't. It's not like they killed the stormtroopers. They knocked them out, they knocked them down, but most of all, they DISTRACTED them. I think it's pretty clearly shown that the Ewoks were losing at the point before Chewie takes over the AT-ST. None of their traps were working, and they were going to get massacred. But they served to distract the troops while the Rebels got into the bunker. And even then, they wouldn't have won if Chewie didn't take the AT-ST. That is really what turned the tide. That's what really defeated the Imperials. The Ewoks just stalled them, and I thought that was pretty clear when watching it, but apparently it wasn't.

Also, they are used to show that this technological Empire was brought down by underestimating nature and simple beings. The fact that they were these small, mini-bear-like creatures added to this. If they had all been Wookies then I think it would have been too easy. Think about it, Wookies are fierce fighters who can rip people's arms out and, not only that, have technology (like Chewie's bowcaster). It wouldn't have had the same significance that they helped defeat the Empire than it did that these little Ewoks defeated them. I just always thought that was cool.


And if you take away the Ewoks, seriously just take away every scene with them, are there any other major problems with the movie? The rancor doesn't count because that was a very good and ambitious effects scene at the time, despite the fact that it has been eclipsed (and should have been redone in the SE instead of wasting money adding that stupid musical number). I think the scenes in Jabba's palace are all very cool and dark, really exuding (excuse the pun) sliminess. The droid torture chamber was a little strange, but I didn't think it was bad. It just showed droids as beings almost, as 3P0 being regarded as a god does. They have been shown throughout the movies with feelings, so why is it any more implausible for them to be tortured than for them to actually feel like humans?

The Sail Barge battle was a good battle with great tension leading up to it. I agree, Fett died stupidly, but I don't think that's a major problem with the movie and the rest of the battle was engaging. I for one liked everything on Dagobah, especially the music, the sad chords of Yoda's death. As I explained above, I don't think Leia being Luke's sister is any more implausible than Vader being Luke's father, and it ends up adding to the story a lot (as Leia is the reason Luke defeats Vader and nearly turns to the Dark Side). Every scene with the Emperor is fabulous. The end duel is the best and most intense in the trilogy. The space battle is the best and most intense in the trilogy (and possibly in history), and the escape from the Death Star by the Falcon is a fabulous scene, as is the funeral pyre of Vader, with the Force theme playing and Luke's silhouette in front of the fire. Disregarding the fact that I don't think the Ewoks were a problem, I don't see any other real problems with the movie.
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#7 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 10:25 PM

QUOTE
Instead, I, for one, am pretty angry with GL and his handling of his franchise. It isn't as if I have any claim or right to his work, I understand they are his own, but still, it infuriates me that somebody who had such promise in his early days, and even still has a degree of ability as a "master storyteller" - putting together the big pieces - would manhandle the details and then use the primer paint of CGI and putty of nifty little action sequences to cover up the dents in his work.



My best guess is that he freaked out. He was bored with life. The man has everything! Money, fame, houses, companies, toys, respect, powerful friends, proabably many erotic women, you name it he as it. The only thing he does not have is infamy. He is in no way a contreverisal guy. This is his way of saying "fuck the world", and now he sits back and watches us all fight over the quality of the films.

I bet he even comes to this forum to read what we put. In his eyes we are the saps, cause all we do is complain about how the story was ruined. He is having the final laugh.

That, or he's a quack, who in no way understands how a movie is to be made. He did these prequels practically on his own.

Look at the DVD "making of the film" clips. He is surrounded by spineless nancy boys. The head of his design team is the biggest puss I have ever seen. The head of CPU graphics is also a putz. The only one with some balls is probably Rick McCallum. But this guy has no clue what makes Star Wars good. Chef pointed it out in this reasons list. Rick is under the impression that Bobo Fett is bend on killing the Skywalker family.

What kind of shit is that? Lucas carefully surrounded himself with the weak and uninformed so that he could fulfill his new found dream of being an asswipe of a director.

I went off there...
Oh SMEG. What the smeggity smegs has smeggins done? He smeggin killed me. - Lister of Smeg, space bum
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#8 User is offline   JamesEightBitStar Icon

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Posted 10 March 2004 - 11:09 PM

Actually, I find that the things nitpicked about the OT are in fact not really all that major. There's millions of possible explanations for everything that seems problematic in the OT.

The whole thing about Darth recognizing the name Lars, for example... remember that at the time there was no indication that he had even met Lars before. this is an inconsistency that exists only because of the PT. Even then though, there's no indication that the Stormtroopers were even really investigating--for all we know, they could've just run in, guns blazing, and confiscated any droids they found.

I think the other points are handled well enough.
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#9 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 12:59 AM

QUOTE (Ferris Wiel @ Mar 10 2004, 11:17 AM)
*Luke learns "everything" in a few days
George Lucas sees time as an abstraction, I'm guessing. That's the only answer I can see. I could imagine Han and Leia staying in the same clothes for a week or so, but much beyond that seems a little silly. I also wonder at the supplies Han keeps aboard the Falcon and how he kept everybody fed for that period of time, especially a Wookie. The nice thing about SW is that it doesn't attempt to explain this stuff a la Star Trek, thus creating more plot holes, instead it is left to the viewer's imagination, the problem, though, is that it leaves the audience wondering exactly how much time passed between Hoth and the rendevous point with the frigate at the end of ESB. Apparently, Yoda was also able to complete Luke's training, but it took the additional nine months of Han's big sleep in the carbonite to hone the skills.

if luke learn't so much in let's say 10 months...

how could he or anikan be too old to learn... it's obviously not like the 14 years it takes to become a ninja or the 20-30 years it takes to learn kung fu!!!

and how stupid did it look having a bunch of kindergardeners training? BTW

although it took anikan 10 years and he never gained an ounce of constraint or dicipline... maybe the death of his mother is too blame...

lets see, luke lost his aunt and uncle who raised him (and found thier chared remains), then Obi wan who took him under his wing and got iced infront of him, then he lost his best friend (and probably others) in the attack on the death star, and only received 10 months of training, and yet still got his shit together to blow up the first death star, take down an AT&T 4legged walker (by hand), took out most of Jabbas men, convinced the ewoks that HIS servant was a GOD, and beat the shit out of Darth VAder

and rightly fucking so!!!
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#10 User is offline   Ferris Wiel Icon

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 09:34 AM

QUOTE (barend @ Mar 11 2004, 12:59 AM)
if luke learn't so much in let's say 10 months...

how could he or anikan be too old to learn... it's obviously not like the 14 years it takes to become a ninja or the 20-30 years it takes to learn kung fu!!!

and how stupid did it look having a bunch of kindergardeners training? BTW

although it took anikan 10 years and he never gained an ounce of constraint or dicipline... maybe the death of his mother is too blame...

lets see, luke lost his aunt and uncle who raised him (and found thier chared remains), then Obi wan who took him under his wing and got iced infront of him, then he lost his best friend (and probably others) in the attack on the death star, and only received 10 months of training, and yet still got his shit together to blow up the first death star, take down an AT&T 4legged walker (by hand), took out most of Jabbas men, convinced the ewoks that HIS servant was a GOD, and beat the shit out of Darth VAder

and rightly fucking so!!!

Well, the thing is, according to the official counts, he didn't go back to Dagobah until ROTJ. So the 9 or 10 months he spent learning between the films was not with Yoda's help.

But that's okay.

Here's a good question and one that Shadows of the Empire, in spite of its EU status, should have answered, if Luke had all these questions, why not seek wisdom from somebody who had been around for nearly 1000 years worth of Jedi lore? I mean, he became a bit of a whiny little bitch in the books after "I don't know anything! I can't find any help! I wish Obi-Wan were here!" Stupid. Lucas had to have the "dramatic reunion" where Yoda dies instead of having a little line in there about "much have you learned, many times returned. Trained you have, to completion."

Instead it's "I have a promise to keep... to an old friend." The idea was that he was keeping the promise made in ESB.

--FW
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#11 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 01:44 PM

In response to nitpicking about the OT vs the PT. I have a very non-film student answer- If you enjoy watching a film, you won't care about the inconsistencies in the film. If you hate it, you will nitpick the movie to death, in fact you will enjoy nitpicking it and make it your livelihood [sorry about that Elf). You have to search annd look for incosistencies in the OT. In the PT, the mistakes are visible for everyone to see and lead directly to your distate for the trilogy.
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#12 User is offline   Ferris Wiel Icon

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 01:59 PM

QUOTE (Mike Mac from NYU @ Mar 11 2004, 01:44 PM)
In response to nitpicking about the OT vs the PT. I have a very non-film student answer- If you enjoy watching a film, you won't care about the inconsistencies in the film. If you hate it, you will nitpick the movie to death, in fact you will enjoy nitpicking it and make it your livelihood [sorry about that Elf). You have to search annd look for incosistencies in the OT. In the PT, the mistakes are visible for everyone to see and lead directly to your distate for the trilogy.

Actually, you're pretty right about that.

I hate ROTJ, TPM and AOTC, believing them to be opportunistic bullshit, but love ANH and ESB. Unfortunately, the poor quality of the other three has dragged the entire franchise down. I mean, statistically, the series is 40% right now and in the past three outings has been 0-3. If they were a football team I'd be counting them out of the playoffs.

I disagree in a way, though. I've been forced to scrutinize ANH and ESB much more closely since TPM and AOTC, because I had to wonder if perhaps I was blinded by my wide-eyed childhood innocence or perhaps my appreciation of stories and storytelling were less developed when I was younger. Fortunately, even after my self-described "nitpicking" of the OT I still can find little fault and 99% of those faults are because of the other three.

--FW
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#13 User is offline   JamesEightBitStar Icon

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 02:44 PM

QUOTE (Ferris Wiel @ Mar 11 2004, 09:34 AM)
Well, the thing is, according to the official counts, he didn't go back to Dagobah until ROTJ.  So the 9 or 10 months he spent learning between the films was not with Yoda's help.

But that's okay.

Here's a good question and one that Shadows of the Empire, in spite of its EU status, should have answered, if Luke had all these questions, why not seek wisdom from somebody who had been around for nearly 1000 years worth of Jedi lore?  I mean, he became a bit of a whiny little bitch in the books after "I don't know anything!  I can't find any help!  I wish Obi-Wan were here!"  Stupid.  Lucas had to have the "dramatic reunion" where Yoda dies instead of having a little line in there about "much have you learned, many times returned. Trained you have, to completion."

Instead it's "I have a promise to keep... to an old friend."  The idea was that he was keeping the promise made in ESB.

--FW

Hmmm. My impression was simply that too much was going on in ten months for him to return to Degobah any earlier than he did. They are kinda, you know, in the middle of a war.

And with all that going on, Luke probably had a lot of solid opportunities to practice the force, and plenty of tools to do it with--Lightsabers, ever-present projectiles, Stormtrooper heads...

And dear God, it seems like I WILL have to do my "In Defense of Return of the Jedi" article!

This post has been edited by JamesEightBitStar: 11 March 2004 - 02:45 PM

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#14 User is offline   Ferris Wiel Icon

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 04:14 PM

QUOTE (JamesEightBitStar @ Mar 11 2004, 02:44 PM)
And dear God, it seems like I WILL have to do my "In Defense of Return of the Jedi" article!

Oh, quit yer bellyaching, it wasn't that good. Come to the darkside.

tongue.gif

--FW
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#15 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 11 March 2004 - 07:06 PM

it's quite clear that Luke didn't return to yodas little swamp planet in the dagobar system untill ROTJ meaning that he got a few pointers from Obi-wan on lightsabre techniques, a few days of BASIC PSYONICS 101 from yoda, and the rest was self taught, except for the important lesson that the emporer throughs in at the end with vaders aid about using hate to get those death blows and finnally a mention that he might want to look into hand zapping.

LUKE KICKS ASS!!! and is 110 times better than his father!!! and had better posture than the emporer!! and took things into his own hands by organising other people to help, and to remain calm at all times!
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