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The Story So Far Have I got this right?...

#16 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 28 May 2006 - 11:09 PM

How do you make two people fall in love?

And why?
Flying Ferret

Battle for the Galaxy--read the "other Star Wars"

All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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#17 User is offline   Jedi_Arco Icon

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Posted 28 May 2006 - 11:11 PM

Interesting note: Sifo Dyas was originally going to be called Sido Dius... Sidious... Somewhere along the way this was changed. Probably because it would have caused so many plot threads. Of course, there are already plenty of problems with continuity in the PT. It's almost like how they changed the name of the Kamino Saber Dart from Kamino Kyber Dart.

Personally, I would've liked the Sido Dius better. It kinda makes the viewer assume that Darth Sidious was manipulating everyone. Claiming to be a Jedi to the Kaminoans and almost shoving it in the Jedi's collective faces. But, then you have to try and explain it later. Like when they tell Obi-Wan it was a Jedi named Sido Dius. But, the Jedi could've just been freaked out, like "Who the hell is Sido Dius and how did he order a clone army from these people!" Drama! Might have been more interesting, if not more convuluted. I'm done smile.gif
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#18 User is offline   Moyale Icon

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 12:59 PM

I wonder if Lucas himself understands the whole sequence of events he calls a plot. I wish he could explain it to me, because thinking about it now, and reading this post, it doesn't make any sense at all. But I guess Lucas has already spent 12 hours explaining it to me, and I don't get it. Does anybody have the cliffs notes version?

Like seriously, it doesn't make any sense what so ever. People who like the PT must be insane, (not neccesarily in a negative way) but not one part of it makes sense to a sane human being. Actually not even the original trilogy anymore!!!!!!
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#19 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 12:37 AM

It's pretty idiotic, think about it...

If Sideous created Anakin, or if Plagueis did and Palpatine knew about it (in my thinking Palpy had no idea who Anakin was until he was brought to Coruscant... I'm sure he could have figured out the boy had potential, but I highly doubt he was like "oh, that must be the kid I/my master created with the midichlorians!")...

then the smartest thing would be to train Anakin (whom the Jedi didn't know about) from birth as a Sith Lord.

(and don't anyone give me any crap like "but it would be too hard to train him in secret!"... ahem.. he trained Maul in secret somehow, whilst he was a Senator, and he trained, albeit for a shorter time, Dooku in secret, while he was Chancellor, so it's quite possible!)

INSTEAD, he takes the hard way, by instead training Maul from birth (according to the EU he was trained from birth or from early childhood, by Sideous), and leaving Anakin to be raised a slave on a dangerous planet outside the Republic where he might be killed at any time by his crazy pod racing stunts or by some criminal or labor accident. He can't even keep an eye on the boy!


So I don't buy this "it was all part of his original plan" at all. Sideous is an idiot if he did it that way...

I am beginning to think that Palpatine is a bit like his creator, George Lucas. He likes to pretend everything was always his intention all along, when in fact he changes his mind constantly, and takes credit when things accidentally go his way...


Fanboys/girls of the world, repeat after me:

Lucas... made.... it... up... as.... he... went... along!

There is no "grand vision"... it doesn't "all flow together perfectly!"

And millions upon millions of dollars of special editions and DVD tweaks has been able
to remove that roughness that's created when you make it up one movie at a time...
(as opposed to really having this monster 12 movie script planned out in advance)

This post has been edited by KurganX: 06 January 2007 - 12:41 AM

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#20 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 03:16 AM

QUOTE (KurganX @ Jan 6 2007, 12:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There is no "grand vision"... it doesn't "all flow together perfectly!"

And millions upon millions of dollars of special editions and DVD tweaks has been able
to remove that roughness that's created when you make it up one movie at a time...
(as opposed to really having this monster 12 movie script planned out in advance)


It's good to see you posting again!

I think that Lucas did have a "vision" of what he liked to see and what kind of films he was after, but from PT to OT, nothing was fleshed out. In the beginning, Lucas had names, locations, battles, and a simple yet easily acceptable concept of The Force. I'm not going to get into the argument whether Lucas intended Vader to be Luke's father, but I will state that Lucas had heroes with problems and villains with goals. Cut and dry.

If only Lucas had fleshed everything out originaly, then he would have had a complete "grand vision" and everything could "all flow together perfectly!" It's like he needed to make a character tree and label exactly where everyone came from and mapped out what relations do any of these characters have with any others.

It's like Lucas forgot most of the dialogue that took place in other filims and made a whole new movie with new concepts, but takes place in roughly the same time period and includes all the characters of previous films. Each film takes a chapter on it's own and because of that, no chapters belong in the same book.
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#21 User is offline   diligent_d Icon

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 01:54 PM

QUOTE
Lucas... made.... it... up... as.... he... went... along!


Amen.
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#22 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 08:22 PM

QUOTE (KurganX @ Jan 6 2007, 01:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
then the smartest thing would be to train Anakin (whom the Jedi didn't know about) from birth as a Sith Lord.


I disagree. By having Anakin become a member of the Jedi Order, Palpatine was able to inflict significant more damage towards the Jedi during Anakin's betrayal. If he had trained Anakin from birth, then the Jedi would realize that he is a Sith and simply attack him. The fact that Anakin is trusted (to an extent) by the Jedi ultimately leads to their downfall. There is no way this could have been accomplished if Anakin was raised as a Sith.
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#23 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 10:31 PM

QUOTE (Storm @ Jan 6 2007, 09:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I disagree. By having Anakin become a member of the Jedi Order, Palpatine was able to inflict significant more damage towards the Jedi during Anakin's betrayal. If he had trained Anakin from birth, then the Jedi would realize that he is a Sith and simply attack him. The fact that Anakin is trusted (to an extent) by the Jedi ultimately leads to their downfall. There is no way this could have been accomplished if Anakin was raised as a Sith.


Baloney. You're assuming that Palpatine would introduce a child or teenage Sith to the Council.

I'm saying he'd just train him in secret to adulthood (when he'd mastered the Sith arts), like he did Maul or Dooku, and then unleash him on the Jedi.

He'd have reached his full potential without any need to "corrupt" him with the convoluted betrayals and involving Padme at all. He didn't need to do any complex corrupting with Maul, the guy was just a pure Sith. And with Anakin's supposedly super high midichlorian counts, he's set.

You're acting as if the power of the Dark Side is predicated on whether or not your relationships with the opposite sex and coworkers go wrong or not.

A purely trained Sith of Anakin's potential would be theoretically more powerful than Dooku or Maul anyway, and would thus be much more of a threat to the Jedi than Anakin as a conflicted Jedi was.

And that wouldn't stop Palpatine from doing other machinations with the Seperatists and the Clone Army as well, since those things were not predicated on Anakin's involvement anyway.

So I think that we're forced to conclude that Palpatine was an insane idiot, or else he did not know about Anakin's conception or potential in the force, until he met him on Coruscant at the end of TPM.

Also, if Palpatine knew that Anakin was the creation of his master (or his own creation), why would he not given Maul strict orders regarding the boy? Instead Maul almost kills Anakin with his "Sith motorcycle" (right before he starts fighting Qui Gon Jinn). Seems Maul has no idea or no care about his master's plans...


Let's face it, much as it is tempting to believe that Sideous is some kind of all-powerful Mastermind who controls everything that happens in the galaxy, it's simply not supported by what happens.

Palpatine may THINK he's all knowing and/or all powerful, but that proves to be his undoing in Return of the Jedi. The guy was just danged lucky and good at snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. He was a gambler, not a god.


So if Anakin was raised as a Sith, there is no need to set up an elaborate set of dominos to knock over to make him "fall" later in life. Just indoctrinate him to the Sith ways from birth and let him grow in the power of the Dark Side that whole time.
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#24 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 10:47 PM

QUOTE (Vesuvius @ Jan 6 2007, 04:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's good to see you posting again!

I think that Lucas did have a "vision" of what he liked to see and what kind of films he was after, but from PT to OT, nothing was fleshed out. In the beginning, Lucas had names, locations, battles, and a simple yet easily acceptable concept of The Force. I'm not going to get into the argument whether Lucas intended Vader to be Luke's father, but I will state that Lucas had heroes with problems and villains with goals. Cut and dry.


I disagree. He may have had a "grand vision" but that "grand vision" (if it existed at all) kept changing. He changed it from 1977 to 1980, he changed it from 1980 to 1983, and he changed it again from 1983 to 1999. He also appears to have changed it from 1999 to 2002 and 2002 to 2005.

How else to you explain the obvious references to modern movies and political and cultural phenomena that didn't exist in the years prior? His "vision" of Star Wars seems to have been fluid throughout all the time he was creating it from 1977 to 2005. Nothing was ever set in stone.

What seems to be the trouble is that Lucas has encouraged his fans to think that he did have some "grand vision" that was set in stone at some time in the past, either that it was set in 1977 or each trilogy was totally pre-planned. He has admitted that only percentages of the prequels were pre-planned of his "original vision."

He's also claimed (when making the 1997 SE's) that the movies as they existed are still only 25% of what he imagined them in his head, because the realities of special effects and budgetary limitations make it hard to adapt that to the big screen.

So in a sense his "grand vision" will never be realized in the movies. So I imagine that allows him the freedom to keep modifying them until the day he dies (and maybe for others to do so too after his death).

I think fans are mistaken to assume that the self-aggrandizment is actual truth. I think he uses revisionist history ("I always intended..") to try to appear more visionary. In truth we can see that the movies are obviously made one at a time with the story being made up or modified as he goes along. Otherwise there'd be no need for retcons, and there wouldn't be such obvious plot holes or contradictions yet to be retconned.

Compare the continuity and development Star Wars saga to series's that are preplanned and written/filmed simultaneously. Very different thing...

I'm not saying that pre-planned is better, I am just saying that Star Wars does not seem to be a series that was all pre-planned (and what we saw on the big screen was what was planned all along). I wouldn't even limit it to just the two trilogies (but that is obvious too) but to each individual movie.

Had Lucas made all six (or nine) movies back in the 1980's and 90's as he "originally planned" I think they would be very different than they ended up, and not just in terms of special effects.

QUOTE
If only Lucas had fleshed everything out originaly, then he would have had a complete "grand vision" and everything could "all flow together perfectly!"


I agree. But he also could have made them flow together if he had had meticulous care in crafting each movie to the previous ones already created. Instead he seems to have felt free to make it up as he went along, freely contradict his previous work, and then claim after the fact that this is how he always intended it. And then he felt free to make special editions where he changed certain things (but not others) regardless of what effects that would have on the rest of the saga.


QUOTE
It's like he needed to make a character tree and label exactly where everyone came from and mapped out what relations do any of these characters have with any others.


Which he could have easily done. Other authors of fiction stories have done similar things. It seems that each movie is more made for the spectacle and is almost a self contained story in and of itself.

Think of the original 1977 Star Wars. You can imagine there is some implied backstory and there is something implied afterward. So in that sense the movie stands alone. You can do the same with any of the other movies (though other than ROTS, '77 Star Wars is probably the one that stands alone the best). In that sense you don't need the other movies to understand each one. In that sense Lucas's approach was just fine... make each movie its own little universe. But then when you slap them all together and say they are all part of one grand vision, it's a mess.

It may not be as bad as James Bond or Highlander, but it's not coherent like the first few seasons of Babylon 5, or the 1st season of Battlestar Galactica (2003), or the 2005 season of Doctor Who, or season 3 of Star Trek Enterprise, or the LOTR trilogy of Peter Jackson, or the two Matrix sequels.

Unforseen problems and modifications occur even in those examples, but you can watch those and see far more continuity and attention to detail than you do between the Star Wars movies, and especially between the two trilogies. But I think there are still serious major breaks in the story between "ANH" and ESB and ROTJ.

QUOTE
It's like Lucas forgot most of the dialogue that took place in other filims and made a whole new movie with new concepts, but takes place in roughly the same time period and includes all the characters of previous films. Each film takes a chapter on it's own and because of that, no chapters belong in the same book.


That's pretty close to how I feel about it. Well said. It's almost like they were stories using the same universe but created by different people (and in the case of ROTJ and ESB, that's true).

PS: This is a typo:

QUOTE
And millions upon millions of dollars of special editions and DVD tweaks has been able
to remove that roughness that's created when you make it up one movie at a time...
(as opposed to really having this monster 12 movie script planned out in advance)


I mean to say that "millions upon millions of dollars of special editions and DVD tweaks has NOT been able to remove the roughness that's created when you make it up one movie at a time!

Big difference... wink.gif
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#25 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 03:55 AM

QUOTE (KurganX @ Jan 6 2007, 10:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So I think that we're forced to conclude that Palpatine was an insane idiot, or else he did not know about Anakin's conception or potential in the force, until he met him on Coruscant at the end of TPM.

Also, if Palpatine knew that Anakin was the creation of his master (or his own creation), why would he not given Maul strict orders regarding the boy? Instead Maul almost kills Anakin with his "Sith motorcycle" (right before he starts fighting Qui Gon Jinn). Seems Maul has no idea or no care about his master's plans...
Let's face it, much as it is tempting to believe that Sideous is some kind of all-powerful Mastermind who controls everything that happens in the galaxy, it's simply not supported by what happens.



I like this. I am also surprised that no die-hard PT lovers have come out and said anything about Mauls final mission from Palpatine:

Palpatine sends a younger Maul off to a planet to complete his final test. Maul, alone and being hunted by assassin droids and such, is successful, and has greatly pleased his master. One thing remains though, Palpatine senses too much of an attachment from Maul towards him, thus Palps tells Maul that he is no good at all. Palps also concludes with a lie, saying that he was off and found a better desciple, one who is stronger in the dark side. An infuriated Maul then lashes out with pure hatred against Palps nearly killing him, thus Maul's training was complete. Palps then gives Maul the title of "Darth." Because Maul showed hatred enough to kill his own master, he was deemed a true Sith.

I can't see Palpatine creating Anakin. Yes, Palps lies like crazy to get what he wants, put he lied to Maul to get him trully Sith aligned. Maybe Palps did find a force addept to replace Maul with if he dies, but I highly doubt Palps will want to make a serious strike against Jedi with a child under the age of six.

Another thing, I don't feel that Palps is as cunning as people would like to believe. C'mon! He killed his master in his sleep!? Palps couldn't even face off with him like a man?! Wuss. Palps is not a mastermind, he's just sneaky. He was an insane power hungry idiot. He did what ever just for more power. So he takes the role of senator. Big deal. If Jar-Jar hadn't delagated power to Palps, then Palps would have had him killed. That's politics. (and probably a more acceptable ending)
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#26 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 07 January 2007 - 01:29 PM

The whole Playgeeus story was just to convince Whammy to follow him. The way Palpy trails his star-crazed pupil along is another point entirely.

Lucas had to explain, when ESB came out, about how it was an episode 5 ("Huh?") of this grand 9-film scheme. We ate it up with relish.

So the emporer figures that he can just do as he wants. Change his story. Lie. Tease. Doesn't matter in the least, far as he's concerned.







The story so far; isn't it kind of like Superman, with a bunch of alternate versions? wink.gif
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#27 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 06:56 PM

You see, Sidiuos made his plan to complex, thats why he never took over the Galaxy, well that and Lucas is one of those "EVIL MUST BE GUTTED WHILE GOOD MUST BE PROSPERED!" kinda guy.
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