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LEft out of the Bible is the old and new testament all there is?

#61 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 02:48 AM

MC: Fine, I am not going to argue the point with you. As you say, all people who hold religious beliefs are uniformly idiotic without a single reasonable thought from dawn to dusk. All scientists must by necessity be atheists, and any that held religious beliefs were faking it to avoid persecution. I think this is incorrect, but I don't have the figures to prove it. I'm not mad at you.

Spoon: what MC said about the law and the food and all that. The "Peter's dream" story, told by Luke the non-eyewitness, does not ring true, and reads like someone was trying to reconcile the two groups of early Christians, those that were Jewish and thought that all Christians should be as Christ was (even his last meal was Kosher), and those that were Hellenistic and ate blood sometimes sacrificed to other gods. Jesus never said anything about it (that bit about "what goes into you does not make you unclean" is NOT about eating pork and shellfish), so this business recorded by Paul's personal biographer is dubious at best. It's funny, but in the book of Acts, Peter's only real purpose seems to be to have this dream and then he pretty much disappears. Jesus said it was on Peter he would build His church, but all the theology comes from Paul and the Gospel of John. The way I see it, Vhristianity was derailed right from the start, from a Jewish sect devoted to the writings of Moses and Isaiah to a gnostic mystery cult devoted to the secret sayings and miracles of Jesus and His followers. I blame Paul for that.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#62 User is offline   Spoon Poetic Icon

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 03:11 AM

Whether or not it's true, I was just pointing out to Barend that the Bible does say it's now okay to eat "unclean" animals - and while this dream was mostly symoblic of how Gentiles are now okay to be a part of "God's family," it is also symbolic of how many things that were once Law have now been changed, as the New Law is in effect. And I actually kind of partially agree with you on your thing about Paul - he was a Pharisee, afterall, and he did intersperse his own beliefs into things, I believe. Like that bit about women. *Shudder*

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 01 March 2006 - 03:11 AM

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#63 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 03:19 AM

Spoon: The trouble is that you can see love, and attributing events to gods and goddesses is a very large jump from that. I've never seen anything that I could firmly attribute to a god/goddess and not something else. These things are almost inevitably subjective, hence I stay nice and speculative as an agnostic Discordian.
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#64 User is offline   Spoon Poetic Icon

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 03:33 AM

You can't be an agnostic Discordian. Being Discordian, as random and strange as that joke disguised as a religion disguised as a joke is, is not only acknowledging the existence of a higher being, but also naming that being and assigning tributes to it. I'm sorry, my dear, but you cannot be both agnostic and of a religion.

And my point with the love thing was that saying something doesn't comply with logic doesn't make it automatically wrong and/or horrible. (And no, you cannot *see* love. You can see the manifestations of love. You can see a mother give her child a kiss, you can see two lovers holding hands, you can see a man sacrifice his life for a friend. But you cannot see the actual concept of love as an object itself, such as seeing a chair, or a lion, or an apple. One could argue it's the same with God - one cannot (usually) *see* whichever higher being in question, but can see the manifestations of this higher being, whether it be randomness and chaos of Eris, or a miracle of God, or seeing the world as a manifestation of its creator, etc etc.)

God is love. Love is God. To me, seeing love is seeing God. Of course this isn't enough to convince anyone of any higher being's existence (not even myself), nor am I trying for it to be. I guess I'm just going off on a tangent.
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#65 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 03:52 AM

One thing that was left out of the bible that I wish it mentioned was the Dinosaurs.
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#66 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 04:31 AM

Why do you like the Chrisitan god, Spoon? Wouldn't you be happier with hari krishna or something?

It's more into peace and love for all. I'm not insulting you, I just don't understand why you're so bent on Jesus when the bible clearly speaks about God's wrath, judgement, and eternal damnation for unrepented sinners.

Do you think these versus are wrong? Last time you tried to say that the bible was not talking about hell, but the magma core of planet earth. I mean, that sounds really far fetched. I don't understand why you insist on Christ being God when you don't like the idea of him getting mad and being a ruler (which does entail him to punish)
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#67 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 06:42 AM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Mar 1 2006, 02:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
MC: Fine, I am not going to argue the point with you

You're not? sad.gif I am rather disappointed. I thought we could argue some more and perhaps reach a consensus, but if you'd rather not then ok.

Still, since I never said, as you nicely put it that "all people who hold religious beliefs are uniformly idiotic without a single reasonable thought from dawn to dusk", I don't want people think that these were my words. May I remind you what I said in the first place "religions will survive because pople do not like to think for themselves" Religions, meaning organised religions like Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Organised religion with dogmas and truths provide people with very convenient tenets which provide ready answers for situations in life, without the need of thinking.

Do you really think that any of those rabid Muslims who burnt Danish embassy ever stopped to think that perhaps it is not quite like the mullas tell them? I bet most of them did not even see the cartoons, but they were ready with violence when someone told them that their sacred faith is in danger fom some cartoonist.

Morality is never black and white, there are never clear-cut answers to moral dillemas in life. Organised religion, however, usurps the role of "morality", thus condemning any people who have other views. And people cling to these beliefs, however false and morally dubious to other people they might be.

Anyway, I stop now, and you may think of me what you will.

QUOTE (Spoon Poetic @ Mar 1 2006, 03:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And my point with the love thing was that saying something doesn't comply with logic doesn't make it automatically wrong and/or horrible. (And no, you cannot *see* love. You can see the manifestations of love.
[...]
God is love. Love is God. To me, seeing love is seeing God. Of course this isn't enough to convince anyone of any higher being's existence (not even myself), nor am I trying for it to be. I guess I'm just going off on a tangent.

I never said that when something doesn't comply with logit it makes it horrible. I only say, that I cannot believe in God, because I can't see any proof of it.

As to the "manifaestation of love" -looks like you are discovering Platon and Aristotle again and the discussion about Platonic "ideas" and manifestation of ideas in real life.

I cannot really argue with a statement "God is love, Love is God" There is nothing to argue about. If you see it like that, and derive some meaning from this statement, fine, but to me it means nothing.


QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 1 2006, 04:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Last time you tried to say that the bible was not talking about hell, but the magma core of planet earth


Jordan, did Spoon really say that? Can you quote it? I think Spoon has "personalised" system of beliefs , which is pretty eclectic and esotheric and has little to do with organised religion.
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#68 User is offline   Patrick Bateman Icon

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 07:52 AM

I believe that everything is everything and we should all expend all our energy on having a good time and - if there's some energy left over - being nice to other people

At the end of the day, if what I do makes me happy and doesn't harm you, then please let me be.

Everything that 'religion' is distressed by - homosexuality, drugs etc - comes down in the end to ... is it hurting anyone?

If not then let it be.

If so then stop.

We all have a limited amount of heartbeats, time is precious, I intend to use it making myself happy.
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#69 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 12:48 PM

MC: I remember when Spoon said that. Jordan is indeed correct.

Spoon: If you've ever read the Principia, you'd understand that I can completely be both agnostic and Discordian. tongue.gif And I see your point, and I probably only argued in favor of seeing love and not God because I misunderstood you, and I was thinking of manifestations when I typed that. Being in love, my opinions are horribly biased, and being agnostic, they are also biased, and being Discordian, theyfnord.

The touble with people is that it's so easy to use inductive reasoning to prove something you already think is true, and it seems that we gravitate toward that far too effortlessly. People say "I believe there is a god/goddess" and then find evidence that proves that but overlook evidence to the contrary. And then people say "I believe there is no god/goddess" and then find evidence to prove that but also overlook evidence to the contrary. I'm not accusing anybody of that, I'm just griping about my own stupid brain when it tries to play tricks with me and using a relevant example. *sigh* I really shouldn't be allowed to think until I can utilize my brain properly.
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#70 User is offline   Spoon Poetic Icon

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 01:07 PM

No, I don't believe in hell. The Bible is not what's central to my beliefs, like other Christians. I've stated before, that I wish I could call myself something other than "Christian," because calling myself a Christian associates me with a pretty different set of beliefs than the ones I actually hold, also with a set of people that can be pretty wicked sometimes. But it's the closest thing I have, and I try to associate with the Christians that aren't wishy washy and gross, and I pretty much keep my beliefs to myself unless I can be anonymous like on these forums, in fear of being stoned to death here in the buckle of the Bible belt, ha. And Jordan, I don't believe in Hari Krishna or anything because it was not Hari Krishna that I have had personal experiences with, and because it just doesn't make the sense to me that what I do believe in does... I'm weird, I know it.
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#71 User is offline   Zatoichi Icon

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 03:09 PM

Oh wow do I have a lot of stuff to read when I have the time.
Anyways, someone asked me if that presenter I talked about was published, and a thing or too else.
Well
Click Here

I honestly don't know how relevant the book is because I have not read it, but it also has some of the guy's background info on the page. Just so you know that I'm not just making things up.
Also, keep in mind that I did not agree with everything he said.

I'll have that information soon, I'm just having trouble downloading the file for some reason. It wouldn't work for my computer because I don't have the program to open it up. My school's computer just won't accept it or something. (It's on a slide show program)
Apparently writing about JM here is his secret weakness. Muwahaha!!!! Now I have leverage over him and am another step closer towards my goal of world domination.

"And the Evil that was vanquished shall rise anew. Wrapped in the guise of man shall he walk amongst the innocent and Terror shall consume they that dwell upon the Earth. The skies will rain fire. The seas shall become as blood. The righteous shall fall before the wicked! And all creation shall tremble before the burning standards of Hell!" - Mephisto

Kurgan X showed me this web comic done with Legos. It pokes fun at all six Star Wars films and I found it to be extremely entertaining.
<a href="http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html" target="_blank">http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html</a>
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#72 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 05:32 PM

QUOTE (Spoon Poetic @ Mar 1 2006, 01:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Acts 10

9 The next day, as they were traveling and nearing the city, Peter went up to pray on the housetop at about noon. 10 Then he became hungry and wanted to eat, but while they were preparing something he went into a visionary state. 11 He saw heaven opened and an object coming down that resembled a large sheet being lowered to the earth by its four corners. 12 In it were all the four-footed animals and reptiles of the earth, and the birds of the sky. 13 Then a voice said to him, "Get up, Peter; kill and eat!" 14 "No, Lord!" Peter said. "For I have never eaten anything common and unclean!" 15 Again, a second time, a voice said to him, "What God has made clean, you must not call common." 16 This happened three times, and then the object was taken up into heaven.


sound like god just cleansed that particular spread...

what version is that anyway... it sounds pretty vague...
This happened three times, and then the object was taken up into heaven.

so peter didn't even eat it... what did the voice have to say about that?
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#73 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 05:48 PM

QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 1 2006, 03:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
One thing that was left out of the bible that I wish it mentioned was the Dinosaurs.


i think there's a vague reference somewhere...

QUOTE (Spoon Poetic @ Mar 1 2006, 01:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No, I don't believe in hell.


niether does the bible, technically.
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#74 User is offline   Spoon Poetic Icon

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 05:59 PM

Finally, someone agrees with me that the Bible agrees with me! tongue.gif
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#75 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 06:24 PM

So you're an agnostic. You believe in God but not really a God in particular?
Oh SMEG. What the smeggity smegs has smeggins done? He smeggin killed me. - Lister of Smeg, space bum
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