[Jordan]

If you're for Palestinaian control, then you must support Israeli destruction. Control over the land is part of the deal, the other half is driving out the large cache of Jews.

I don't understand what you mean by "pissing in the UN's face" since it's creation. But you're right, nobody in politics will acutally support either side 100%. If they do, they will be called anti-semetic or anti-palestinian.

Pressure from the UN has force Israel to pay the Palestinian authority a monthly fee. .

By the end of the 6 day war, Israel controlled the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. Egypt, Jordan, and Syria all lost a war they started. If Israel was handed down by the Brits, it was later righly fought for during the 60's by the Jews themselves. A war they did not ask for but won.

Heavy political pressure, by the UN, forced Israel to withdraw its military from the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip. So Israel did not piss in the face of the UN, it gave into her wishes.

Furthermore, this battle was a lop sided fight. Israel had about 260 thousand ground troops and roughly 200 aircraft. Jordan, Egypt,and Syria combined for 300 thousand ground forces and 800 aircraft.

Thanks to the superior Israeli piolts, whose brilliance in this campaign cannot be over looked, single handedly destroyed the opposition aircraft on the ground and a few in the air with some of the most impressive air combat to date. I recall my history teacher talking about how they used clouds and stuff as cover.

This war proved that Israel was a soverign nation, capable of not only defending itself, but also a power house in the middle east that could taki over 3 countries in 6 days, if it wanted too. But it bowed out. Major ethnic cleasing could have gone on as pay back. But it didn't.

Israel won the war fair and square. 100 of thousands of Arabs fled the occupied terrortories and many fled Israel prior to war to escape it's destruction. Some returned some didn't.

Here is a chart that shows that Palestinian population never really decreased and they never really lost their land in the sense that they could not live their. Many displaced people sought refugee status in Jordan and till this day they cause unrest. They were not treated well by the Jordanian government.

http://www.palestine...ist_pop_67.html

In the end the Israelis are not terrorist and do not persecute Arabs without just cause (ie terrorists, supports of terror etc..) They've given back land, money, and the government has never started a war or terrorist attack, but only played on the defensive end, no dobut to appease the UN and namely the US. Which is smart. So now, they refuse to fund the Hamas, and as a result Iran and other Arab nations are going to help support them. The Iranian president is a loony and is openly supporting a terrorist foundation, which has yet to recant it's terrorist ways.

It's nothing but blood shed ahead with this government. And it's Israel who gets to live in constant fear.

[Sailor Abbey]

Hamas is right to call for the destruction of the Zionist Entity.

What is a Zionist Entity anyways?

[Despondent]

it's Israel who gets to live in constant fear.

And faith. And like their rivals, conviction.

This post has been edited by Despondent: 20 February 2006 - 10:41 PM

[Sailor Abbey]

The Palestinians keep fighting because they are right to do so.

Don’t the Israelis have the same rights? Are they any less human?

[Jordan]

Zionist entity are people that helped forge Israel. For 1000 years these people have been persecuted all around the globe. No land, no acceptance. So after 1000 years of this they finally have their own land and are able to defend it. All of a sudden they are evil for not losing a war, not giving into terror.

JM hates them because the US backs them, therefore are evil by proxy. He uses the term in a negative fashion. So they have less rights. JM will tell use ancient claims to support his theory. Which is dumb. Nobody respects those.

He will say that Israel drove out Arabs, which is a lie. The vast majority left before the war to avoid the being caught in the middle of a Jewish onsaulght, the rest fled occupied terrortories within a hours of being captured. Hardly enough time to start killing innocnent people in mass genocide. They left because they are ashamed of starting then losing a war so fast.

Jews are not genocidal killers. They earned the right to that land. Yes, it's possible, you can earn the right.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 20 February 2006 - 10:50 PM

[Cobnat]

If you're for Palestinaian control, then you must support Israeli destruction. Control over the land is part of the deal, the other half is driving out the large cache of Jews. - Jordan

although I dont believe in the destruction of Isreal, I do believe in Palastine and its people having thier own goverment that isnt controled by the US, NATO, UN or to some extent Isreal. - COBNAT

I don't understand what you mean by "pissing in the UN's face" since it's creation. But you're right, nobody in politics will acutally support either side 100%. If they do, they will be called anti-semetic or anti-palestinian.
Pressure from the UN has force Israel to pay the Palestinian authority a monthly fee.

Wow, well I dont agree with Jews giving the money to Palestine so they dont get wiped out becouse that is just mean and Im against any country controling a people that isnt theres.

By the end of the 6 day war, Israel controlled the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. Egypt, Jordan, and Syria all lost a war they started. If Israel was handed down by the Brits, it was later righly fought for during the 60's by the Jews themselves. A war they did not ask for but won.

Isreal was an understandable threat to the Muslim countries it surrounded.

Heavy political pressure, by the UN, forced Israel to withdraw its military from the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip. So Israel did not piss in the face of the UN, it gave into her wishes.

But lets face it, before that occured Isreal did commit horrendous acts against Muslim minorities in the GAZA strip.

Furthermore, this battle was a lop sided fight. Israel had about 260 thousand ground troops and roughly 200 aircraft. Jordan, Egypt,and Syria combined for 300 thousand ground forces and 800 aircraft.

That doesnt give them a right to "own" people just becouse they won against odds.

Thanks to the superior Israeli piolts, whose brilliance in this campaign cannot be over looked, single handedly destroyed the opposition aircraft on the ground and a few in the air with some of the most impressive air combat to date. I recall my history teacher talking about how they used clouds and stuff as cover.

I remember many good German WW2 fighters, smart men, good tactitians, I wonder if they will be remembered...

This war proved that Israel was a soverign nation, capable of not only defending itself, but also a power house in the middle east that could taki over 3 countries in 6 days, if it wanted too. But it bowed out. Major ethnic cleasing could have gone on as pay back. But it didn't.

Im afriad it did... gradualy, Isreal isnt a "holy nation", it is the same like the rest of us.

Israel won the war fair and square. 100 of thousands of Arabs fled the occupied terrortories and many fled Israel prior to war to escape it's destruction. Some returned some didn't.

This I can agree, the winning fair and square bit anyway.

Here is a chart that shows that Palestinian population never really decreased and they never really lost their land in the sense that they could not live their. Many displaced people sought refugee status in Jordan and till this day they cause unrest. They were not treated well by the Jordanian government.

Hense your name "Jordian" Im suspecting? Just kidding, but if you do want Isreal to have Gaza then you must also agree with Serbia having Republica Srpska (the Serbian Land of Bosnia that has 90% Serbs living there) and India having Pakistan.

It's nothing but blood shed ahead with this government. And it's Israel who gets to live in constant fear.

Everyone lives in fear, tis our nature.

This post has been edited by COBNAT: 20 February 2006 - 10:48 PM

[Sailor Abbey]

Zionist entity are people that helped forge Israel. For 1000 years these people have been persecuted all around the globe. No land, no acceptance. So after 1000 years of this they finally have their own land and are able to defend it. All of a sudden they are evil for not losing a war, not giving into terror.

JM hates them because the US backs them, therefore are evil by proxy. He uses the term in a negative fashion. So they have less rights. JM will tell use ancient claims to support his theory. Which is dumb. Nobody respects those.

I don't understand it. No country is innocent, and no people are better than any other. I just don't get what the big deal is.

I don't really care to much about what goes on over there, so I dont really pay much attention. But what I have noticed (indirectly) is that Israel seems to be genuinely trying to make peace. It cant be comforting to be surrounded by a bunch of countries that hate you. All I've seen or heard from Iran is their new admin say they want to wipe Israel off the map.

My cousin had a theory: get all the world leaders in one place. Turn off all the lights, hand out some glow sticks, and give everybody ecstasy. George Bush and Osama Bin Laden on the same couch? No problem. At this peace summit, every body loves everybody. "Hey Saddam, pass the starbursts, will ya!"

[ps I am not advocating the use of recreation narcotics by anyone except world leaders]

but if you do want Isreal to have Gaza then you must also agree with Serbia having Republica Srpska (the Serbian Land of Bosnia that has 90% Serbs living there) and India having Pakistan.

K and America has to give its land back to the natives. And the Canadians have to give up their land to the natives. And the Australians have to give up their land to its natives…


…see where I’m going with this?



Finders keepers. And if you cant protect your stuff… finders keepers.

[Spoon Poetic]

I don't even want to comment on this debate, it looks like it's going to be the Iran debate all over again, except JM and Jordan have switched arguments. But I DO want to point out one thing: Israel is spelled I-S-R-A-E-L. The A comes before the E. I try not to correct spelling mistakes for the most part, but that one's a biggie that a certain someone needed pointed out to them.

That is all.

[Slade]

The point was that Israel was just given to the Zionists, and the Arabs living there were displaced. And it's not finders keepers yet because the conflict is still going on. *sigh* Land wars are so incredibly stupid and barbaric in all respects. I don't even want to get into it.

JM: The Bible isn't a "bullshit storybook." Keep your angry rhetoric to yourself. From here on out the modstick is out. Please play nice...

[J m HofMarN]

Jordan- The Zionist Entity is the term Hamas uses to describe the thing they fight. Israel is not a country by Hamas or my standards. They invaded land that was not theirs and claimed it. They don't recognize the existence of any country that makes itself out of other people's land.

He will say that Israel drove out Arabs, which is a lie. The vast majority left before the war to avoid the being caught in the middle of a Jewish onsaulght, the rest fled occupied terrortories within a hours of being captured.

People don't flee without good reason, Jordan. If someone took over your home, began militarising, and declared that the land that used to be yours is now "For the Jews" you'd probably be smart to get the hell out of there unless you were a Jew. People don't just flee their homes for fun.

Don’t the Israelis have the same rights? Are they any less human?

They're on other people's land. They have the right to piss off and leave. If they choose not to use that right anything they build can and will be blown up by a court of freedom fighters.

So now, they refuse to fund the Hamas, and as a result Iran and other Arab nations are going to help support them. The Iranian president is a loony and is openly supporting a terrorist foundation, which has yet to recant it's terrorist ways.

They're stealing millions from the Palestinian people, that's what they're doing. I'm glad that the Palestinians can depend on countries like Iran to help them. And you can't accuse people of terrorism while their land is under occupation and their people are oppressed. Malcolm X teaches that if a man wants his freedom he will do anything to gain it. That's what justified Hamas. They want their freedom and are willing to do whatever they can to help attain it. But then I suppose Malcolm X was a terrorist as well.

They earned the right to that land. Yes, it's possible, you can earn the right.

Mordieu! Fine then, I have a bigger cock than you, therefore I have earned the right to take over your house. Huzzah for logic and the idea that might makes right!

Here is a chart that shows that Palestinian population never really decreased and they never really lost their land in the sense that they could not live their. Many displaced people sought refugee status in Jordan and till this day they cause unrest.

Come on simple logic says that can't be true.

Fact: Before ww2 Palestine belonged to the Arabs almost entirely.
Fact: Now the area that used to be Palestine is inhabited mostly by Jews.

These facts make it impossible for your statement to be true. Genocide had to occur, indeed it is inherent in the creation of the Zionist Entity, because if not that area would still be occupied by the majority Palestinians. There is a good reason that Palestinians describe the creation of Israel as "Al Naqba".

Pressure from the UN has force Israel to pay the Palestinian authority a monthly fee.

The Zionists get that money from taxing Palestinians. The UN and Chairman Arafat, peace be upon him, forced them to give it back to the Palestinians.

This war proved that Israel was a soverign nation, capable of not only defending itself, but also a power house in the middle east that could taki over 3 countries in 6 days

Yeah, just like the battle of Wounded Knee proved that the US was a sovereign nation capable of defending itself from terrori... ermm I mean savages.

…see where I’m going with this?



Finders keepers. And if you cant protect your stuff… finders keepers.

Did you just post a page from Mein Kampf as your reply or what? Step back and think for a while about what that line of thinking would justify. It's fine for the victors to think like that, but the defeated peoples should have every right to resist and fight back.

Would you tell a slave in the US in 1850 "Sorry, finder's keepers"? Yeah, they were outmanned and outgunned, but through resistance both militant and political they won their freedom. The right of oppressed peoples to resist is sacred and there are no limits to that right.





Those may have been the wrong words thats ture. What I was getting at was that "God says you can have this" written in a book does not a just basis for a country make.

[Slade]

Actually, Jewish immigrants had been moving to Palestine and buying plots of land for a while before the Zionists had the UN move them in. You're just as bad as the right wing when you start crying out with your terms designed to appeal to emotion rather than logic. I'm not saying that the Israeli military didn't kill lots of Palestinians, or vice versa, just that because people left doesn't mean they were systematically mass-killed.

And it's sad and disgusting, but might does indeed make right in this world, still. Though your penis size has nothing to do with your might.

[J m HofMarN]

Genocide does not only refer to killing though. Even though the Zionists are killing plenty, the UN treaty on genocide also points to forced evictions based on ethnic or religious background as genocide.

It's a very phallic kind of argument which basically amounts to "my cock is bigger than yours" and it's the same kind of justification. What's the difference between having a larger phallus and having a larger army? People would point to both as examples of natural selection - the weak die and the strong survive. But I think humanity should move past such simple ideals.

[Renegade]

I still dunno if i should get involved here since itll prolly end up being locked/me being accused of being a KKK member.. though just for reference, im glad some ppl are finally realizing why things have definitions and everything cant be classified as "GENOCIDE/RACISM/IMPERIALISM" blah blah blah

[Sailor Abbey]

Did you just post a page from Mein Kampf as your reply or what?

Mostly I was making a joke. Ha ha ha. See, its funny.

It's fine for the victors to think like that, but the defeated peoples should have every right to resist and fight back.

Sure thats fine. If somebody tried to jack my land, I'd be pissed too. But the fact of the matter is, before it was mine, it belonged to some natives. Before it was theirs, it probably belonged to a different group of natives.

At some point you have to say, 'ok, you people have been here for a few hundred years. Maybe your ancestors stole it from somebody, but thats not your fault. I guess you can keep it.'

I am no less apart of the land now than the people who used to live here. I myself have never committed any crimes against them so I should not have to feel guilty or be punished.

What I was getting at was that "God says you can have this" written in a book does not a just basis for a country make.

Well, if their god didnt want them to have it... why do they have it?

[Slade]

Surely that statement is apocryphial, Abbey. And you have just as much a right to be attacked for evicting whoever lived in your land before you as the people you've evicted had that right exersized on them. If a war for Israel in the beginning was the initial claim to the land, there might be less of a mess, but it would still be ugly because of the religious ties to the land. Really, it's just absurd to try and claim territory in a location held sacred by the three largest religions in this world, and it should have been left open for everybody.

However, a line needs to be drawn somewhere. You can't go back a few hundred years and contest a previously uncontested claim. Then you're just screwing over people who've settled there and should really be moving on... Yep. It's just one big mess.