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Hamas Should Israel support their own destruction?

#1 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 12:19 PM

Hamas, a terrorist organization that has a charter which stipulates the destrution of Israel, is angry because Israel has frozen the 50 US million dollar payment (per month) towards the palestinian government.

This is the best thing to come out of the Middle East in ages. It's a great bit for SNL or something Monty Python would have spoofed. "give us the money so we can kill you, it's our right and an attack on our democratically elected terrorist regime".

How low can you sink? Palestiaian officals have no shame whatsoever. The best is hearing them on the news getting all upset about the sanctions. They are angry at the Israeli government because their agenda of annilation has been seriously hindered.

I still can't understand why Israel bothered to fund them in the first place. They've hated one another for 100's of years.

Many people here are under the impression that Arabs loved Jews, or that they got along well at one point. After some research, I found this to be a total lie, which was already obvious to me.

Princeton University historian Bernard Lewis

While Jewish communities in Islamic countries fared better overall than those in Christian lands in Europe, Jews were no strangers to persecution and humiliation among the Arabs. "The Golden Age of equal rights was a myth, and belief in it was a result, more than a cause, of Jewish sympathy for Islam."22 - Bernard Lewis

Muhammad, the founder of Islam, traveled to Medina in 622 A.D. to attract followers to his new faith. When the Jews of Medina refused to recognize Muhammad as their Prophet, two of the major Jewish tribes were expelled. In 627, Muhammad's followers killed between 600 and 900 of the men, and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves.23

The Muslim attitude toward Jews is reflected in various verses throughout the Koran, the holy book of the Islamic faith. "They [the Children of Israel] were consigned to humiliation and wretchedness. They brought the wrath of God upon themselves, and this because they used to deny God's signs and kill His Prophets unjustly and because they disobeyed and were transgressors" (Sura 2:61). According to the Koran, the Jews try to introduce corruption (5:64), have always been disobedient (5:78), and are enemies of Allah, the Prophet and the angels (2:97-98).

Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews. In the ninth century, Baghdad's Caliph al-Mutawakkil designated a yellow badge for Jews, setting a precedent that would be followed centuries later in Nazi Germany.24

At various times, Jews in Muslim lands lived in relative peace and thrived culturally and economically. The position of the Jews was never secure, however, and changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death.

When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results. On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.

Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.25

Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by the Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830; and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.26

Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854-859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).27

The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire.28


As distinguished Orientalist G.E. von Grunebaum has written:

It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.29

The danger for Jews became even greater as a showdown approached in the UN. The Syrian delegate, Faris el-Khouri, warned: "Unless the Palestine problem is settled, we shall have difficulty in protecting and safeguarding the Jews in the Arab world."30

More than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting during the 1940's in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria and Yemen.31 This helped trigger the mass exodus of Jews from Arab countries.



There you have it. After years of killing and persecution, all of a sudden the Jews are the bad guys, for defending themselves for the first time in 1000 years. Now, they decide to not fund their own fate and are being called out. Gotta love Arab politicians.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 20 February 2006 - 12:19 PM

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 01:06 PM

How can you just HATE somebody so much. It makes me tired just thinking about it. What a waste of a few hundred years.
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Posted 20 February 2006 - 01:11 PM

*sigh* Indeed, that's the thing that causes so much trouble in nowadays world. Muslims hate Jews for killing Isa and now the Jews are back in their turf after their diaspora and aren't very keen on getting their arses kicked again.

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 01:48 PM

I'd like to point out once more that not all Muslims hate Jews, and I'm not going to put up with more bigotry. Quoting sporadic instances of violence doesn't mean that it was constant, either. When you do research with your point already proven in your mind, you tend to overlook evidence that doesn't support your theory. If I felt like it, I could dig up stuff that seemed to say that Christians hate Jews too.

And statistics alone prove nothing unless put in the proper context. For all we know, those people who killed Jews could have been killing lots of various ethnic and religious groups, and not singling them out.

I don't know enough about Hamas to comment on them, but why would Israel fund the group in the first place? That's the bigger joke. And Israel's only been around since 1948, so they've only been able to hate Palestine and vice versa for 58 years, not hundreds.

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#5 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 02:18 PM

You even said that Muslims lived in peace with Jews for centurys, not realizing how brittle and lop-sided the situation was.

The articles pinned the blame on leaders, and so did I. I finally find evidence (which apparently was lacking in the last thread) this time I feel is solid and you dismiss it as "probably not true". I used secular university material. Names on the post, dates, events. The violence was consitent and happened any time Jews became prominent or held positions of power. They were always second class citizens. That is the point of the posts. To show that this peace you speak of only held while the Arabs felt they were not threatened by Jewish prominence and success. Now that is racism. Controlled by violence.

I blame the leaders, which happen to be supported by the populace. Hamas was not the only candiate for election. There was other peaceful Islamic groups running for eleciton, yet the one that happens to be a terrorist regime wins the sweeping majority. I mean it's right there in the open. Palestinians don't want peace, they want the Jews out, and that means killing them. They have done nothing to push for peace. Yet we can't talk about it because a minority of palestinians out there that did vote supported peacful canditates?, so it's called bigotry and hate mongering if we do?. It's ok if the majority voted regime to act on their hate towards Jews, but it's not ok to point it out? Lest we may start a Palesintian holocaust, Aushwitz and all.

A regime which supports the destruction of Israel, whom has close ties to the Iranian government who have called for the destruction of Israel, whom have a background of terrorism on their resume and have refused to negotiate peace, have won power through a democratic election....some how do not support the majority of Palestinaians??? And it's wrong to talk about it? Because you're afraid of people starting to get angry at Palestianians and begin stereotyping them as violent?

Don't be afraid of being a bad guy by taking a side. Remaining neutral on this issue is useless, you might aswell just ignore the entire event all together.

"in todays news, 1000 more dead, we will not tell you who killed who or why, due to the event that people may develop a prejudice, and now for something completely different."

It's got Monty Python written all over it!

PS- edit- I think one of the purposes for the UN is to stop wholesale slaughter of people. I doubt a Palestinian holocaust will start. I've yet to hear of any serious killings and genocides of Muslim people in North American and Europe. Of course, trouble in Africa stands as a major in embarrisment for the UN, but peacekeepers are making a difference and have saved countless lives. But this whole "people will start to hate palestinians for killing jews" line is almost laughable.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 20 February 2006 - 02:47 PM

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 03:03 PM

Its probably difficult to discuss anything in the middle east without sounding somewhat like a bigot or generally ignorant. And whats the point of anybody ever doing a statistical study EVER, if there just automatically discounted as impossible to be true. Name calling is probably not good, but when you are presenting a point, no matter how controversial, and have some evidence to back it up, your bringing something positive to a debate. Right?
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Posted 20 February 2006 - 03:17 PM

Reforming Israel was the biggest mistake since Christopher Columbus decided to sail across the Atlantic.
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Posted 20 February 2006 - 03:19 PM

If he didnt do it, somebody else eventually would have.
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Posted 20 February 2006 - 03:19 PM

Reforming Israel, or sailing across the atlantic?
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Posted 20 February 2006 - 03:23 PM

The latter.
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#11 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 03:24 PM

Funny thing is that the statistic (ie number of dead) are pinned to dates and events.

Yet it's treated with the same regard as if I quoted "50% of all group A is likely to think Group B is a bananas split- sponsored by paid lobbyist"

This post has been edited by Jordan: 20 February 2006 - 03:24 PM

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 03:28 PM

There are three types of lies - lies, damn lies, and statistics.
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Posted 20 February 2006 - 03:34 PM

Great, what does that have to do with this thread or my comments? I guess 6 million jews dead at the hands of Nazi's is probably a lie too, right? No,you'd never cross that line, since it's socially accepted to pound Nazi's to the ground and expose them for the scum they are. Not all statistics are lies. How can you trust any history books, they have loads of numbers in them.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 20 February 2006 - 03:35 PM

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#14 User is offline   Otal Nimrodi Icon

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 03:47 PM

It's an exp​ression, okay?

Look, that exp​ression usually means that, most of the time, people make up statistics to help prove their point.

As my teacher at D&D camp said: "Sixty-five percent of statistics are made up on the spot."
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#15 User is offline   Dr Lecter Icon

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Posted 20 February 2006 - 03:50 PM

Of course 6 million is a lie, in the words of a man that I don't personally like: A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.

You prove to me that exactly 6 million were killed.

Statistics is not a fair science, if you've ever learnt about statstics then you will know that is it very easy to get any kind of outcome you like. Its true that not all statistics are false, but most are. Unless they were made by independants, then they are not worth the time it took to type them.

This post has been edited by Dr Lecter: 20 February 2006 - 03:52 PM

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