[Despondent]

6 million, 5 million, 500 thousand or 200 thousand- Whatever. Killing factories exist. Or is it someone's responsibility to prove to you WHO built the camps by digging up the dead; I mean deed.

Incindeary, inflammatory language, way to go. Nice avatar but if Lennon had said what you did (And I can't prove he didn't...) I'd lose respect for him too.

[Jordan]

Ok +- a few points. Ya, I'm well aware of the accuracy of statistics, but it does not mean they are totally bogus. You can't measure anything to perfection, not even a line you draw on paper with a pencil.

It's the degree of accuracy that is important. I'm sure a few Jews were totally vaporized and never made it to the charts. I'm sure some guy counted one corpse as two. Blah blah blah.

A point that was rehashed several times, in the now dead thread, was use of references. So I used two strong sources, who happened to rely on sources themselves which happened to use statistics.

What do I get?

"statisitcs are always wrong, you can't trust them OR Those statistics have a good possibilty of being wrong".

In the end, it's hopeless. I regret starting this thread, you might aswell lock it since it's already been derailed to a boring debate.

But don't ask me for references ever again.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 20 February 2006 - 03:59 PM

[Dr Lecter]

Hey just making a statement here, people always go on about this magical 6 million, when I've seen any evidence at that many were killed. Forgetting accuracy, obviously Jews were killed in a disgusting manor, no doubt in large numbers, and it should never have happened. But that doesn't give them the right just say that 6 million were killed without any evidence to show. I'm not interesting in knowing the exact number, but I just want people to realize that it could have been any number from 1 million to 10 million, and that 6 million as a number has no true meaning.

[Slade]

What I meant is that you need to take a statistical measurement in context for it to have validity. They can be true, but you need to know a bit about the picture.

Edit: For the record, that stuff I said at the beginning was because I don't want this to become another War in Iran thread, not directly related to anything that was said yet. And Jordan, I misread your main ideas at first. My apologies.

This post has been edited by Slade: 20 February 2006 - 05:51 PM

[Spoon Poetic]

Dr. Lecter - have you ever studied the Holocaust? There are many ways they came up with this number. And it's usually stated as "over 6 million Jews," as well as a couple million other kinds of people like people that helped the Jews or gays or whatever else the Nazis didn't like. Not only did the liberators find bunches of mass graves where hundreds of thousands of bodies were just dumped in a pit and then razed over and so could get a count from that, but also the Nazis kept good records of things, and survivors also can give their own accounts of what happened, how many people they saw die themselves, etc. With all of this put together, people can come up with a pretty accurate number.

Here you go, some evidence:

[Slade]

*scrunches up face* Yes, that is a fairly accurate depiction of the holocaust.

While I think Lecter was complaining because that number was an estimate and not exact, it's still stupidly pedantic to bring up, and rather insensitive, given the genocide caused.

Spoon, please try not to post too much of that stuff. I get enough revulsion at the human race without help...

[Deepsycher]

Oh where they alive in the picture? That is a horrible way to get killed on suffocation. Well I suppose it maybe less painful but slower, compared to using a gun.

This post has been edited by Deepsycher: 20 February 2006 - 06:47 PM

[Spoon Poetic]

Some were dead, some were alive when thrown into the pit. Not sure about the picture itself. And it is most certainly NOT less painful. The worst part is, they haven't begun rotting away yet - as skinny and eaten away as those corpses are, they were that way when alive.

*knows entirely too much about the Holocaust*

*sigh*

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 20 February 2006 - 06:56 PM

[Deepsycher]

Which was what I meant by a gun as for being more painful but quicker.
How about decomposing bodies fully alive in experiments, did that happen?

[Spoon Poetic]

No, a gun would not be more painful. Suffocation and being crushed would be much more painful than being shot.

You don't want to know what kind of experiments were done. I'm not getting into it - search the web.

[Deepsycher]

Oh from of slow death from strangulation, but I thought they get use to the pain until slowly passing away. As for not experiencing that I am curious. Crushed: I remember reading some references as to using a tank to crush the slaves, starting from the legs and forced to say some statement as were they chained down.

Well as I am interested I will look around for the types of experiments used.

This post has been edited by Deepsycher: 20 February 2006 - 08:14 PM

[Despondent]

What's that big ape looking creature on the left in the picture?

I'm just askin'.

[Deepsycher]

Ape looking creature with a persons face could have been a subject to an experiment involving hair.

This post has been edited by Deepsycher: 20 February 2006 - 09:06 PM

[Cobnat]

I support HAMAS, even though we slaughtered a few thousand Muslims back in the 90's. I just believe Palastine is more important then petty Isreal, not that I hate Jews or anything, quite the contrary, but becouse Isreal has been pissing in the face of the UN since 1948 and no one has done anything becouse it makes them look "anti-semetic", although I dont believe in the destruction of Isreal, I do believe in Palastine and its people having thier own goverment that isnt controled by the US, NATO, UN or to some extent Isreal.

[J m HofMarN]

Akhem, having trouble seeing all that stuff about the holocaust, this big green Hamas flag is getting in the way.

Seriously, get over it. There's plenty of holocaust going on right now against the Palestinians and you lot are busy fawning over something that happened before we were born. Genocide is happening today. A million Palestinians fled their homeland because of the literal invasion of people who had no business being there except that some bullshit storybook says their ancestors lived there a few thousand years ago.

Hamas is right to call for the destruction of the Zionist Entity. And the money that the Zionists are witholding is collected illegally from Palestinians. They are taxing the people of Palestine and stealing that money as an attempt to deny the people of Palestine their free choice of government.

And no Jordan, regrettably Hamas is unable to use that money for the destruction of the Zionist Entity. That money is intended to do what Hamas has been doing for years- provide education and medical care to Palestinians. It would take billions for Hamas to be able to take on the Zionists militarily. People didn't elect Hamas to destroy the Zionists, they know that's currently impossible. They elected them because they have a clear record of helping people and not being corrupt. You can say what you like about their tactics, but they are fanatics. You can't accuse someone who would blow themselves up to kill Zionists of being in it for themselves.

The former PA, for all its achievements, had grown corrupt. Arafat was all that held it together and when he died there was noone to take his place. I think Marwan Barghouti would have done a spectacular job but sadly the Zionists captured him. If he had been allowed his freedom he might have kept Fatah in control, but instead the Zionists must deal with Hamas. It's their own fault in so many more ways than just that.

The Palestinians keep fighting because they are right to do so. How can one negotiate with murderes and torturers and kidnappers and the killers of countless Palestinian children? How do you negotiate for YOUR land with the people who stole it from you? It is madness to ask such a thing of the brave people of Palestine. The Zionists in the Israeli government will not let the refugees they comitted genocide against go back to their homes. They tax people they have no right to rule. Every day they launch terrorist missile strikes against freedom fighters and civilians alike.

The more I hear, the more I read, the more certain I become that the only just solution is this-- Death to Israel!