[J m HofMarN]

The whole living force thing is just a completely nonsensical addition to what the force can do. All of a sudden something that could push a button or have profound effects on the weak minded can rape women, make you immortal, and preserve life. And Qui Gon's theory and studies in the living force are never explained. He learned what he knows from Dooku, who was taught by Yoda.

Lucas used this BS to explain why Mace and the others never appear as Jedi ghosts, but there's no conceivable way that Anakin could have learned this tecnique since it was only mentioned after he fell to the dark side. And these tecniques are never even fleshed out, there's just some jibba jabba about the living force flying around and that's it.

In bringing up the scene where Anakin kills Dooku one of my pet peeves was kind of bothered. Anakin has ZERO motivation to kill Dooku. Never once did he mention any dislike of Count Dooku. The only reason he has to hate him is the loss of his arm, but Luke lost a body part to Darth Vader, had his friends tortured, got captured by him, and had the foreknowledge that the man helped blow up a whole planet, AND had to listen to Palpatine tempt him but he managed to persevere.

What made Anakin snap? Four damned words. "Kill him. Do it." And that's it. They could have had him think (as I did) that Dooku had maimed or killed Obi Wan. But no, that never factored into things. Evidently, if someone tells you to kill someone you just have to do it. If Anakin is that easily manipulated I wonder why Sidious didn't have him kill Yoda as well.

"But Si... I mean Palpatine, Yoda is my friend. He's like a mother to me."

"That may be so, but remember... Kill him. Do it."

"Awww alright."

As for the debate on quality, The prequels have won several Razzies, which are like the antithesis of the Oscars. I know Hayden Christiansen got one this year for his role. I'd also point out the complete lack of anything quotable.

There are several immortal lines from the OT, but in the PT what do we have? "Your thoughts betray you." "I couldn't find a speeder I liked." and of course the ever quotable Yoda's closet philosophy on death.

[Jejef Thgaron]

The whole living force thing is just a completely nonsensical addition to what the force can do.

And exactly when do you think the whole living Force thing was first brought up? It's not a PT addition. It's in the OT... in ESB, the BEST SW movie out of the entire saga.

In bringing up the scene where Anakin kills Dooku one of my pet peeves was kind of bothered. Anakin has ZERO motivation to kill Dooku. Never once did he mention any dislike of Count Dooku. The only reason he has to hate him is the loss of his arm, but Luke lost a body part to Darth Vader, had his friends tortured, got captured by him, and had the foreknowledge that the man helped blow up a whole planet, AND had to listen to Palpatine tempt him but he managed to persevere.

Anakin has ZERO motivation to kill Dooku? I don't think so. Who killed the sandpeople for killing his mother? Could you not tell that Anakin started slipping into the dark side in AOTC? I thought the whole sandpeople killing spree summed it up.

What made Anakin snap? Four damned words. "Kill him. Do it." And that's it. They could have had him think (as I did) that Dooku had maimed or killed Obi Wan. But no, that never factored into things. Evidently, if someone tells you to kill someone you just have to do it. If Anakin is that easily manipulated I wonder why Sidious didn't have him kill Yoda as well.

Anakin told Palpatine about the sandpeople and how he killed them. What you don't understand is that ever since that point in time, Palpatine, or rather, Sidious, had been planting seeds of doubt in Anakin's head. I'd also like to point out that Palpatine was the 'Supreme Chancellor of the Republic' and his statement, "Kill him. Do it." was an order. Imagine yourself as a 'General' in the U.S. Army and you had Osama bin Laden cornered and were ready to take him into custody. Now, imagine a higher ranking officer telling you, "Orders have changed. Shoot to kill."... what do you do? If you kill him, we know where that road leads, but if you don't kill him, you are disobeying a direct order of a higher ranking officer. Can you say court marshall?

There are several immortal lines from the OT, but in the PT what do we have? "Your thoughts betray you." "I couldn't find a speeder I liked." and of course the ever quotable Yoda's closet philosophy on death.

There seems to be confusion as to what constitutes an immortal line. How about, "You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them!" "A prophecy misread, could have been." Or my favorite which people seem to love debating over: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

Whether or not they are good lines, people remember them anyway... therefore, they haven't been forgotten.

[Azrael23]

"Anakin has ZERO motivation to kill Dooku? I don't think so. Who killed the sandpeople for killing his mother? Could you not tell that Anakin started slipping into the dark side in AOTC? I thought the whole sandpeople killing spree summed it up."

Anakin maybe had started slipping towards the darkside after that event, but it had not yet
totally consumed him, he wasn't beyond the hope of turning himself around. Aside from losing
an arm Anakin didn't really have any motivation to kill Dooku, which we can see based off his
reaction after beheading Dooku, had he been that consumed he would have killed Dooku without any hesitation and would have never shown any regret.

"Anakin told Palpatine about the sandpeople and how he killed them. What you don't understand is that ever since that point in time, Palpatine, or rather, Sidious, had been planting seeds of doubt in Anakin's head. I'd also like to point out that Palpatine was the 'Supreme Chancellor of the Republic' and his statement, "Kill him. Do it." was an order. Imagine yourself as a 'General' in the U.S. Army and you had Osama bin Laden cornered and were ready to take him into custody. Now, imagine a higher ranking officer telling you, "Orders have changed. Shoot to kill."... what do you do? If you kill him, we know where that road leads, but if you don't kill him, you are disobeying a direct order of a higher ranking officer. Can you say court marshall?"

But even an officer has the right to question whether or not this is ethical. Anakin could discern if this man should be tried (which he should have been) Yet Anakin became a hyprocrite when Mace was about to execute Sidious, ignoring the fact that he executed Dooku without a fair trial, the difference however, is that Palpatine was the cause of everything, that therefore made him guilty of treason against the Republic .

This post has been edited by Azrael23: 12 March 2006 - 06:19 PM

[barend]

As for the debate on quality, The prequels have won several Razzies, which are like the antithesis of the Oscars. I know Hayden Christiansen got one this year for his role. I'd also point out the complete lack of anything quotable.

There are several immortal lines from the OT, but in the PT what do we have? "Your thoughts betray you." "I couldn't find a speeder I liked." and of course the ever quotable Yoda's closet philosophy on death.

What?

what about such classics as;

"Around the survivors a perimeter create." -yoda (clear as ever in AOTC)
"Anikan, you're breaking my heart! -Padme (mastering the subtley of true love in ROTS)
"Sand gets in your ass." -Anikan (a poinient moment in AOTC)
"oh help me a bumbeling idiot" -C3P0 (providing much need comic relief in ATOC)
"Yipeeeeeeeee!!!" Anikan -(the dark lord cometh TPM)
"Nooooooooooooooooo!" Anikan (showing us his range from the last quote in ROTS)
"Good relations i have with the wookies." -Yoda (letting us know exactly where he stands in ROTS)
and so many more...

[Despondent]

Don't forget Vader outranked Luke in ESB, and Luke disobeyed an order from his supervisor.

--

did playjesus kill the SW saga or was it just forced?






Because I don't care anymore.

[ion eon]

Heheheh

[jariten]

Palpatine had been moulding that sucker since AotC. He just wound him up and watched him go.



"Blast, this is why I hate flying!"

[Jejef Thgaron]

Palpatine had been moulding that sucker since AotC. He just wound him up and watched him go.
"Blast, this is why I hate flying!"

Exactly. Anakin was just Palpatine's puppet... just like Vader is in the OT.

Don't forget Vader outranked Luke in ESB, and Luke disobeyed an order from his supervisor.

WTF?!?!? Vader and Luke were on different sides of the Galactic Civil War! What does outranking have to do with ANYTHING in the Vader/Luke situation?!?! Luke didn't disobey anyone, he was only warned of the consequences in ESB! Yoda was trying to teach Luke to let go of his attachments. Fear of loss leads to pain and suffering... is this sinking in? A Jedi does not have attachments to other people or objects. Forget Anakin's line about "a Jedi is encouraged to love". Anakin's mind was being twisted by Sidious. Sidious knew Anakin's weakness for the pink velvet sausage wallet and used it against him as a handicap. Does anyone understand where I'm going with this?

[starwars is aokay]

Wat ze hell u have forgotten one simple rule this is science fiction so the rules of science apply light takes years to get from one galaxy to the next so why not the force maybe plageuis did influence the creation of Anakin but he did from the sith empire so it took time to travel accross the galaxy to tatootine

[Gobbler]

Science Fiction.

Science. Fiction.

Yes, it's about science. Yes, it might be about real science and real scientific possibilities which all function in straight accordance to the known rules of science.

However, it's also fiction - so it doesn't have to stick to reality. And if you think that lightsabres do not defy these known laws, then you should have paid a little bit more attention in class.

I doubt that Lucas or anyone else had the real rules of science in mind. This is merely a science-fiction fairy-tale, not much point in over analyzing it.

But you're right - maybe Plageuis did whatever he supposedly did a while back. But you'll find that this is an extremely vague assumption.

Seriously, as interesting as the whole Star Wars universe might be, I just can't get over the thought that it's been created in the minds of dreamers, who - at that point in time - didn't think about any reasons at all, since all they wanted was to create a powerful character.

[TheOrator]

I usually find the "It's just a story" argument pretty weak. The whole reason science fiction exists (for the most part) is to make fantasy plausible.

That said, I'm not against psuedo-science in sci fi unless it mars otherwise cool science.

However, the lightsaber argument does make sense--clearly GL didn't care about scientific accuracy, so there's no reason to call him out on inaccuracy.

But if we do delve into science, I don't think the Force travels in electromagnetic waves, I think it uses quantum physics' "seamless web." FTL FTW.

[Gobbler]

Of course "It's just a story" always sucks out the fun, I was more getting at "It's a story that someone clearly didn't write with that in mind, so let's not jump to conclusions".

I wonder what Mr. Lucas would actually say if you asked him about the Force's stance on the wave-particle duality. I'd be impressed if he tried to avoid it by jumping straight to the uncertainty while quoting Heisenberg, but that is really science-fiction now on my part.

[Otal Nimrodi]

There's a problem with that argument. Science fiction is fiction. Its all made up. And you don't have to obey the normal laws. But you can't just make up laws on a whim. You have to set out boundaries for yourself.

A lightsaber may not obey the laws of science, but you can't change how it works. You can't make a lightsaber blade fly off the hilt. It has rules it follows.

[civilian_number_two]

Since JM created his history of the forums thread, I've found myself reading onld threads. Apparently so did someone else, since this one was started up in 2006 and suddenly resurrected here. No complaints though, SW discussions dried up some time ago. Anyway, we had a big discussion years back over whether SW was sci-fi or fantasy set in space. Most came down pretty heavy on the latter, myself included. There is precious little science in this series, after all, which is what makes any effort to science-up the prequels weak. I speak for a lot of people when I say the Force was better as a mystical energy fireld than as a power bestowed upon folks who had large numbers of microorganisms in their blood.

I have no real opinion on anything Plagueis might have done though, since I didn't see that movie. But I do agree with the idea that once a story has established its rules, those rules can't be broken. Like, "you can't put metal in the time machine" should have meant no living-metal T-1000 in T2. And "The living metal Terminator can only form simple machines" rule from T2 should have meant no freaking flamethrower in T3. For example.

[makingfun22_sw]

midichlorians lol
plagueis "father" of anakin lol

The problem with the prequels is that there are so many plot holes that each scene needs a novel to seal it (the plot hole).
All you can do now is watch the movies and laugh. The prequels are parodies of the original trilogy.

Have fun.