[Chefelf]

That's not necessarily the same because black people are not as pursecuted as gay people are. While there are plenty of hatemongers who dislike blacks just for being black there is not as much ignorance on the subject. There aren't people who claim that blacks "make a choice" to be black. Also, they are allowed to marr without it being wrong in the eyes of the lord.

When you have a group that is so unfairly treates as the homosexual community they have very little choice but to stand up and march together as a show of pride and solidarity.

Guest, I see the point that you're making but I don't think it's as simple as sitting down and saying "let's not bring attention to our cause as to make ourselves seem different".

[SkinnedAlive]

Well i'm gonna take my usual 100% passive approach on this. To be quite honest I don't care why they're marching at all. I'd have the same reaction if it was a march for, I dunno, people born with an extra toe. They're not hurting anyone.

What I do care about however is people who moan about this stuff and think that somehow gays marching is offensive or that it endangers their health. It is a distinctly negative and destructive thing to do.

So please, do what I do and just don't give a shit. Or at least keep it to yourself and try not to offend anybody, then everybody's happy.

-Skinny

[Supes]

Think of it like if there was a black person march every month. Sure, it might help keep politicians aware of their issues, but ultimately it's a divisive step that serves to further differentiate black and white people by placing one group on display while the other looks on. To put it another way, it marginalises the parading group. It says, we are an oppressed minority that needs special help and recognition. That might be the case... but it doesn't help gain the acceptance of mainstream society.

I disagree! The Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras has been mentioned in an earlier post and this is a perfect example of how what you have just outlined does indeed end up bridging the gap.

I think it was Princess who mentioned that it was not advertised as much this year, but to be honest it doesn't have to be. The Sydney G&L Mardi Gras is really no longer just for the homosexual community. It is now a huge party where both Gay & Straight people head out and have a damn good time. It is an activity that has helped to personalise homosexuals within our community. I'm not saying that all prejudices have been suddenly erradicated, that's not the case (there are still a number of chapters of the KKK running around I believe, despite the black power movement). But what it has done is shown those people with a few additional brain cells that sexual orientation is really no big deal in the grand scheme of things.

Race, colour and creed are not acceptable means to determine status. But unfortunately for the most part, we are still learning that. Here's hoping we get there - for all our sakes.

[Supes]

So please, do what I do and just don't give a shit. Or at least keep it to yourself and try not to offend anybody, then everybody's happy.

-Skinny

BTW, Happy Birthday Skinny & welcome to the forum.

[civilian_number_two]

Civilian 2...

Couldn't you argue that gay rights parades are divisive, and serve no long-term purpose?

Only if you can convince me that the Civil Rights movement failed for black people. Like, in the long run. Go to google and look up the history of black people in America. It's pretty damn amazing that the trial in TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD was nightmarishly real when the novel was written, yet it seems like science fiction today. Hell, even read the works of *liberal* writers from forty years ago, and you get the sense that nobody really thought black people would ever be acepted as equal in society. Today black men have nearly as much status as white women. That's social progress.

The parades do not "marginalize the parading group." The froup is already marginalized; the parades serve to make it marginalized, collected and visible, as opposed to marginalized, scattered and ignored. Really.

There are still racial hate crimes in north America, and there always will be. There is still gay bashing, and there are hate crimes more severe as well. And there always will be. But the courts can't ignore them anymore. White people can actually go to jail for killing black people; this was pretty rare even forty years ago. With a few decades, the bogus "gay panic" excuse will not serve as a defence for gay bashing.

I don't know what sort of gay pride marches you're referring to, Guest, where all that happens is that straight people feel all excluded and gay people reinforce their difference. Supes is right. The marches serve to identify a community, and loads of straight liberals turn up to show support, just like loads of white people marched for civil rights. They're hardly divisive. Most of the time, there are opportunities for people to join clubs with common interests, and yes, there's lots of cruising, just like there is at any parade.

Jordan has gone on about his revulsion, and how the behaviour of gay people at Pride marches disgusted him, turned him off gay people forever. I guess I have a sense of that. I was a block away from Robson street in 1994, when the Canucks lost game seven to the Rangers. The ensuing riot and mayhem pretty much turned me off hockey fans altogether. In fact, later that week, some friends of mine, reacting to a guy who'd invited us to join a "hockey pool," acted out of "hockey panic." We raped him, and then tied him to a fence and beat him to death before using his corpse for target practice.

Yes. I jest. Pride marches are no more about "typical" activity than any parade. Pride marches in particular are about "flaunting" a lifestyle that is still openly persecuted. I don't know what it means to "be gay and just leave it at that," but police still raids gay bars on bogus grounds, while straight people do drugs and have sex in the hundreds of clubs all over the city. Vancouver has nearly 100 different places to go to women take their clothes off, and Vancouver ruled that that sort of activity in a gay bar was unlawful. This sort of ruling has come along time and again. Gay people have to worry about being affectionate with one another, lest some rogues might want to bash them, while straight couples routinely take their wedding photos in Stanley Park. Gay interests and lifestyle are censored; newspapres like Xtra West are occasionally pulled out of libraries that carry Cosmopolitan, with its frank articles about oral sex.

And while we're talking about "flaunting" a lifestyle: I have no idea what sort of education you're getting at UBC, Jordan, but try going into the Pit sometime. The way first-year girls dress in clubs is what I would call "flaunting" heterosexuality. At least, if I were to use the word the way you do. Not that I think they should stop. I also don't think we should outlaw Maxim or even Playboy. I say giddyup! Just don't pretend we need one standard for the majority and an entirely different, restricted standard for minorities. The hallmark of a free society is how well it treats its minorities.

And right now, gay people on tv is not what I would call "mainstream acceptance" of anything. Will and Grace would be a lot less popular if Will ever had sex. Television's idea of homosexuality is dressing nice and cracking wise about Liza Minelli. Meanwhile, we're still arguing gay marriage like it's actually an issue. Gay music is "in;" gay culture is "in;" gay people are *not* "in."

[Jordan]

You keep comparing bad with bad, then making your point. "Sure gay's flaunt, but look at evil straight white people flaunt".

I find gay pride parades in Vancouver gross. End of stroy. It does not mean I rape them and beat them to death. Why did you even mention that?

I don't go to the pit, the sticky floors, and drunk idiots (who once threw a bottle at my head, out back at the smoking area) are enough to keep me from that place.

What drunk, horney girls do at a club(or shitty campus dive) in no way is relatable to what gay people do at parades. I flaunted my new protractor the other day at school.


And even if it is relateable. I don't find Horney drunk women disgusting. It does not in any way gross me out. I find it tempting, and difficult at times, but never gross.

Maybe I should have said "I don't like the gay pride parades, they gross me out" and left it at that.

And you are right, they are just another parade at the end of the day. It's not so much the event as it is the message at the event. "accept me" I don't buy it.

....and what does my education have to do with it?


Skinny you don't try offend anyone? So pious

This post has been edited by Jordan: 09 March 2004 - 04:46 AM

[Mist]

I find all these talks amusing since they are usually begun by people who want to whine or protest against the minorities rather than by the minorities themselves.

Just thought I'd add in a comment that an acquaintance of mine always tries to use when attempting to "turn me from the wrong/satanic/evil/etc. path". It always makes me laugh, and some of you might get a kick out of it as well.

Gays just try to take the easy way out.  That's the reason they're "gay" in the first place.  They go with the flow and never try to fight the fact that people can't really be gay.

I'll argue with people like that to keep them spouting this sort of nonsense, but, for the most part, it just serves to keep me laughing at them. Keep up the good work everyone.

Jordan: I think you are one of many people who don't realize that camp is a form of humor. I, personally, don't find it as funny as quotes like the one quoted above, but it is a form of humor. To continue your argument, though, and to ignore your rather large faux pas: Why don't the antics of the gays on parade compare with the antics of the horny women in the bars? Just to clear it up beforehand, let's not use with the facts that gay men aren't women, or that the gays on parade were having fun at society's expense, which happens to us from the much of the rest of society all the time, while the horny women were merely pathetically desperate for sex. Now that that's been cleared up, I anxiously await your response.

LP and Rhubarb: I agree that society is becoming more tolerant of gays, and I don't think that you even needed to use Queer Eye as an example. I think that you can look right in this topic. If people weren't as accepting and tolerant, no one would have spoken up with the enthusiasm they did for gays rather than going along with Grinner Sinner and speaking against them.

Food for thought: I'd be interested in moving back to the basics since this argument began in the middle of a large topic. Sexual orientation is based on gender, but how do you define gender? Society is highly phallocentric, that's for sure, but that's not really the answer to the question. What is a man, and what is a woman? That's the topic I'm really interested in right now.

This post is a prime example of what happens when I'm depressed and bored. I wasn't even going to post in this thread, but I had nothing better to do. I had originally intended just to read all Jordan and Grinner Sinner's amusing arguments.

An aside since I'm not fully rambled out: Yesterday, I bought my sis and my mum a dozen yellow roses.

This post has been edited by Mist: 09 March 2004 - 05:27 PM

[Jordan]

Mist: "let's not use with the facts that gay men aren't women"


I'm not offended by women. That is the difference. This is not rock solid logic that can be applied to anything outside my frame of reference. I find, horny women, dancing the night away mildly amusing. I find transvestites dancing the night away(on a float during a parade) rather gross. There really is no arguement to be made here.

And why can't I use this?

PS- I never made an arguement. Or did not intend to at least.

[Jordan]

I don't like arguing Gay issues. My stand point is mostly biblical. From a humanist point of view there is really no reason why they can't be the norm. And since most of you (I find) are humanists, I don't think you will except a bibilcal reason. (fair enough)

One of my non-biblical arguments are as follows. Aids numbers are highest in Gay males (majority of aids is found in gay male community). The reason is, I think, that men look for sex more freguently then women. I see it myself when I go out every night. The only thing that stops straight men from frequent sex is usually the girl. Gay men don't have that luxury, and by nature, are doomed due to over zealous sex drives.

Civil-Did you go to UBC? And if so, what did you take there? What are your thoughts on the school? I personally feel like an ant, and hate it. The school is totally overated. I wanted to transfer to UVIC, but I don't think my marks are good enough ( I think they want 75% above).

This post has been edited by Jordan: 09 March 2004 - 07:01 PM

[sinister grinner]

a few questions #2. do you automatically assume someone is a certain way based on what they say? if you knew me well enough, would you have asked me any questions?

gay parades DONT PISS ME OFF. i said, or at least meant, they probably do it to piss US off. not ME off. US. just a mundane thought that i assumed would have sparked a giggle in someone upon reading it.

my dislike for homosexuality doesnt come from peer pressure, peer pressure or social pressure might have fed it a little, but my dislike roots from my own personal thoughts on the matter. upon first hearing about it, i thought "two guys having sex, eww thats gross." probably at 6 years old.

everyone notes their existence, cause lots of people are racist against them. racists are the reasons that some people find it odd for interracial relations and shit. they make it sound so horrible, it brainwashes other stupid people who in turn become racist. i am not racist. we are all the same species, it doesnt matter what our skin color, origin, or sexual preferences are. but homosexuals might want to be a little more courteous about their sexual preference. based on jordans experience, i dont think anyone but gay people want to see naked dudes walking down the road. if i were to organize a straight pride parade (and please do NOT take this comment seriously in ANY shape or form), i would try to prevent gay people from seeing it. cause it could be offensive to some, and gross to others.

that said, i am not a racist, gay pride parades dont piss me off, and if you automatically assumed these things, then in my mind that classifies you as somewhat stereotypical. (i dont neccessarily mean this notice the IF part.)

about giving into peer, or social pressure. just one motto that i picked up a long time ago.

"only dead fish swim with the stream."

[Supes]

I don't like arguing Gay issues. My stand point is mostly biblical. From a humanist point of view there is really no reason why they can't be the norm. And since most of you (I find) are humanists, I don't think you will except a bibilcal reason. (fair enough)

One of my non-biblical arguments are as follows. Aids numbers are highest in Gay males (majority of aids is found in gay male community). The reason is, I think, that men look for sex more freguently then women. I see it myself when I go out every night. The only thing that stops straight men from frequent sex is usually the girl. Gay men don't have that luxury, and by nature, are doomed due to over zealous sex drives.

Okay J. now this is just showing plain ignorance kid. Please do not make statements relating to the "majority of aids" being related to the gay community without some actual statistics to back that sort of shit up. At the same time it would also be useful to back up the biblical references.

Here are some worldwide stats for you to think about and then see if you can start to equate that back to gay men:

ADULTS AND CHILDREN ESTIMATED TO BE LIVING
WITH HIV/AIDS, END 2003

Sub-Saharan Africa
25 - 28.2 million

North Africa & Middle East
470000 - 730000

South & South East Asia
4.6 - 8.2 million

East Asia & Pacific
4.6 - 8.2 million

Eastern Europe & Central Asia
1.2 - 1.8 million

Australia & New Zealand
12000 - 18000

Latin America
1.3 - 1.9 million

Caribbean
350000 - 590000

North America
790000 - 1.2 million

Please, tell me that those poor people in Sub-Saharan Africa are primarily gay men with over zealous sex drives. And then show me where you got that from.

Here's a little more for you to digest:

Number of people living with HIV/AIDS Total 40 million (34 - 46 million)
Adults 37 million (31 - 43 million)
Children under 15 years 2.5 million (2.1 - 2.9 million)

People newly infected with HIV in 2003 Total 5 million (4.2 - 5.8 million)
Adults 4.2 million (3.6 - 4.8 million)
Children under 15 years 700 000 (590 000 - 810 000)

AIDS deaths in 2003 Total 3 million (2.5 - 3.5 million)
Adults 2.5 million (2.1 - 2.9 million)
Children under 15 years 500 000 (420 000 - 580 000)

All this info was taken from - http://www.unaids.org I suggest you check it out, because you are under a very sore misconception if you still believe HIV/AIDS is a gay problem.

Apologies for the very long post all.

[Jordan]

You have the total for N.America Now go check the % of gay people that hold aids.

That was what I was speaking of, not the global situation.

You want back up, I can get the passages. It does not fair in these arguments, since I then have to prove that the bible is indeed the word of God, and that is a whole other issue altogether.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 10 March 2004 - 02:46 AM

[civilian_number_two]

You keep comparing bad with bad, then making your point. "Sure gay's flaunt, but look at evil straight white people flaunt".

Oh wow, Jordan. I never said straight white people were "Evil!!!" I am a straight white person!

You're reading an awful lot into what I said, so I'll say it again, in the hope that it will stick. You wish that gay people wpould not flaunt their sexuality in public, and then you point out that straight people don't flaunt their own sexuality. I mention that straight people sure do that very thing, and you suggest that I'm saying those people are evil.

I was not comparing the "Bad with the bad." I was pointing out your double standard. I think it's good that slutty 18-year-old girls away from home for the first time in their lives drink too much in campus bars. I like that young men and women experiment with sex, and that they have stupid relationships that they sometimes later regret. I think this is a social good. I also think it is good that it is at universities across North America that most gay teenagers finally find the courage and solidarity to come out. I think university is a good experience for most people; even if they never learn anything academeic, at least they're exposed to different people than they would have met if they'd just walked straight out of high school and into a trade.

I don't think it is wrong for straight people to "flaunt" their sexuality. I don't think Playboy and Cosmopolitan are social evils. It is by the same token that I don't think it is wrong for gay people to be affectionate in public, to do what is often called "flaunting' their lifestyle. S-G suggests that gays put on the pride parades just to piss off straight people. he says this while suggestin g that it soesn't actually piss *him* off. I still challenge him to forward all of his comments to his "lesbian friend," but really for his sake I hope he doesn't.

Jordan, your summary of homosexuality always coes back to this parade you saw one time. I suspect you don't actually know any gay people, and I supsect further that you haven't thought much about what a simplistic thing it is, sexual orientation and the right to love whomever you choose. There's nothing inherently "gross" about homosexual love, even if you don't want to participate in it. Frankly, I'm a lot more grossed out by Bill Clinton, and by knowing where his dirty cock has been. But that doesn't mean I want to limit his rights. I am grossed out by all sorts of poeple and things, and I don't want to limit their rights. And the analogy again: people were not too long ago grossed out by black people marrying white people, and it was not too long ago possible for mobs to drag niggers out of jail and hang them in public. That's the sort of thing that would make national news today, and it would stay in the media for months. We've come a long way on civil rights for blacks, and you aren't even aware of the effect it has had on you. Your opinions are the sum of the culture you live in, like it or not. That's how, among other things, racism, musical taste, food preferences and religion all work. Ever wonder why so many people in North America believe in Jesus while so many in the Middle East do not? Has it ever occurred to you to wonder about that?

....and what does my education have to do with it?

That wasn't me suggesting you are stupid. Like my comment above, it was the suggestion that anyone who isn't taking advantage of the liberal atmnosphere of university (the scores of young, horny girls (or boys, as you please)) isn't really getting the full academic experience. And I do mean academic; a lot of what people do in university is to form their personalities, so the conversations you have with your peers at parties and elsewhere have as much to do with your education as the classes you take. Assuming you don't load up your roster with a load of idiots. Try to pick intelligent friends, because unlike the bozos you knew in high school, a lot of these people will be with you for life.

Anyway, that's a huge aside. the meat of the matter is that you find gay people repugnant for three terrible terrible reasons, and all three of these reasons are stupid and illogical. I'd like to show you why:

1) The Bible done told you so: I'm sure you saw that gag mail floating around the internet, the letter to Dr Laura, about how if we're supposed to hate fags because of the Bible, then we should probably obey all of the rules in the Bible, including the ones about animal sacrifice and stoning adulterers to death. Really, Jordan, you're obeying the tenets of a bunch of assholes who wouldn't even suffer women to speak in public? It should be noted thast the rules about homosexuality are as old as the dietary laws, and even Christians 2000 years or so ago gave up on the kosher diet. Jesus never once spoke about homosexuality. Not once. I don't know what to make of that, but my impresion has always been that he didn't give a shit one way or the other. ANYWAY: designing a society based on specific religious beliefs is as insane as waging a holy war on a concept.
2) "It's gross." : Yawn. Lots of things are gross. Get over it. And I put it to you that your reaction is not natural, but rather it has been imposed on you by peer pressure. There's a reason why Marilyn Monroe was the bomb in her day but would have to lose weight today. People like what society likes. You are probably turned off by smoking, but forty years ago you would have smoked indoors, at the movies.
3) AIDS: You can't discriminate aganst a segment of society for its own good. And no, there are more straight people with AIDS right now than gay people with AIDS. But even if your stat were correct, it's not all that telling. Oliver Sacks' book THE KINGDOM OF THE COLOR-BLIND (title may not be accurate) documents an island community with a common genetic defect. Seems that due to strictures of marriage within the community, and due to the small population of the island, the recessive trait of colour-blindness is in the majority there. Something like 70% of the people have a very strong form of colour-blindness, and their eyes are sensitive to the tropical sun. This isn't a disease. This is a genetic trait, so people only have one opportunity to acquire it, and it's still as prevalent as that. So that really says something about what happens in small communities. AIDS spread among homosexuals because the gay community is very small, and yes, it is promiscuous. But saying gay people shouldn't have marriage rights because there's AIDS is like saying that we should gas retards. What the fuck? It's a disease, man. It's not anyone's fault that it exists, and if it targets a specific community, the answer isn't to outlaw the community!

I think you could could clear up your misapprehensions about homosexuality by adding some perspective. If you could look at things with different eyes than the ones you brought with you from high school, you might begin to imagine that the world is different from the the narrow idea you have of it. If your idea of homosexuals went further than gay sex, AIDS, and that one parade you saw that one time, it might occur to you that gay people eat and sleep and read and write books, they love and they garden and they believe that Jesus Christ is their personal Lord and Saviour, just as much as anyone else . And you may not want to be gay, but if you find gay poeple gross you need to realize that's your problem, and not theirs. I am personally disgusted that William Hung got a record deal, but I'm not about to suggest that we should restructure society to protect stupid people from jumping on the William Hung bandwagon.


I'll forge a separate message about UBC, so as not to get off topic here.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 10 March 2004 - 04:22 AM

[civilian_number_two]

Civil-Did you go to UBC? And if so, what did you take there? What are your thoughts on the school? I personally feel like an ant, and hate it. The school is totally overated. I wanted to transfer to UVIC, but I don't think my marks are good enough ( I think they want 75% above).

Yes, Jordan, I went to UBC. I stayed there a bunch of years, and studied English Literature and Film Studies and Religion. I picked up a pair of degrees, neither of which I use in any way.

I agree that UBC is a bit of a droid factory. If you want to transfer to Uvic you should; 75% is a pretty average grade. But I guess it depends what you're studying, and who you hang out with. I found that Undergrad studies were soul-crushing, the calsses anyway, no matter what you were taking, even if your professors praised you and offered you jobs and publications and personally invited you into the Masters program. Grad studies there rock, since mostly you just goof off and lead the odd seminar. But again I guess that depends on your discipline.

All that aside my undergrad years were great, and worth the enormous student loan that took me so long to pay off.

My advice to you, apart from all the condescending "expand your mind" crap I've been throwing at you in my other posts, would be to join some clubs and attend their gatherings. Do you live in residence? because it's too bad if you don't. I made a lot of friends in residence, a lot more than the hardly any I met in my classes. The thing is, in first year most people just hang out with the friends they brought with them from high school, even though ultimately most of the time these friendships fade. The side effect is not a lot of people make lasting friendships with anyone in first year, and it enhances the feeling that the place is a factory. The best friends I made in first and second year came from my time in residence. If that's not what you got, then get with the clubs. Too late this year, but if you stick it out, you should sign up for a bunch next year. Even Christian clubs are cool for social atmosphere, so long as you don't join one of those creepy Campus Ministries. No offense (okay, offense intended), there's something pretty stupid about going door to door preaching religion. Better bet would be to join a Bible study/discussion group. Filmsoc is another great one, if only for the free movies and the fun of running a theatre without any bosses. There's also a great Ski club, various nerd groups like the anime club and the UBC Wargamers, and academic clubs galore.

Every club and society holds beer gardens. You don't have to like beer to attend. They're just good places to get talking to people. Bring a couple of friends, so as not to feel stupid and all wallflowery, and head out to some of these. You don't need to belong to the club in question; it's almost preferable if you don't. You can't meet people if you already know everyone, as my nan used to say. And I'm gonna say it, since it's on that topic with that other thread, and since it's a common belief among a lot of straight guys at UBC: The Gay/Lesbian club at UBC holds the best beer gardens. You want to open your mind, and/or make good friends for life, go to a couple of these. You won't see people wearing thongs, or making out with one another. You'll just see a load of people of both genders hanging out in community and talking about their classes. It'll surprise you, maybe, that they're not just constantly giving one another AIDS or discussing how much they want to piss off straight people. Definitely go to such a thing with some friends, and if anyone asks you to dance, it's okay to tell them you're straight. They're a lot more welcoming than the average straight society would be if a gay guy came out among them. You might get one or two guys questioning your motive for being there. I was asked that at a beer garden, and I answered "I was tired of being an obnoxious prick, and decided to challenge my perceptions." Friend for life.