[diligent_d]

http://www.originalt...2&threadid=4246

Appears Lucas was still working on this scene after Post-Production and never knew what he wanted with the scene. Which is ridiculous as the turning of Anakin should have been planned out twenty years ago...

[Darth Player]

Having shotty bodyguads is one thing, but imagine having a whole army of imbeciles like the Empire had in ROTJ. I always thought that the Imperial Guards were just there for pomp and circumstance, an extravagant display for the Emperor. But you are right about the back up Jedi from ROTS. What a bunch of bungling miscreants.

As I'm sure you're aware, the red guards have a cult following among the Sw fans akin to the one Boba fett enjoyed before Lucas decided to make his backstory show that he was a complete loser. The Red Guards had a comic series (which I haven't read) but was supposedly good solidifying their status amongst the fans as super-badass fighters. Then the PT comes out and two go down in no time flat, irregardless of the "Force Pikes" they were issued. It makes me believe all the more that Lucas has such contempt for the fan base that made him a multibillionaire that he wanted to screw with everything the most rabid of fans held sacred once and brought them a modicum of enjoyment.

Maybe the three Jedi going down in no time flat was supposed to be a visual clue as to why Anakin embraced the Sith path. I sure as heck wouldn't be a proud card carrying member of the Jedi after THAT confrontation, or lack of one.....

[ion eon]

THEY ARE SOOOO COOL. What with the Redness and uhh stuff http://www.speredelo...erialGuard.html

[Despondent]

Which is ridiculous as the turning of Anakin should have been planned out twenty years ago...

...or thirty.

Yeah, they appear(ed) "kewl" all right.
Of course if the OT was all CGI, there wouldn't be a costume photograph to link to, now would there be?

[J m HofMarN]

The fact that Anakin hangs out with Palpatine at all is just crazyness. Palps may as well be an old man offering Anakin a piece of candy to hop in his Sithmolesetermobile. In fact that's more or less what happens. It could almost be believable if this was the little Ani from TPM, but being as he's an adult he dosn't have an excuse.

[Darth Player]

I forget where I first came across it, it may have been a critique of ROTJ way before the PT mess emerged, but it went on to say that the Emperor sounds like a used car salesman after a while with his beckoning Luke to join the Dark Side, but never giving any compelling reasons to do so. All the hopes that the PT would clarify things as it was said it would have fallen short. Tucker, anyone? It was owned by an old lady who kept it in the garage and only used it to go to the supermarket a few blocks away once a week.......

[jariten]

To save Padme or not, you would think that Anikin wouldn't be so hasty to save this guy

But that was the whole point. "I can't live without her". Not something a Jedi would say, but something a human being would say. You know, he loves, lives, gets angry, gets jealous. crys...

Appears Lucas was still working on this scene after Post-Production and never knew what he wanted with the scene. Which is ridiculous as the turning of Anakin should have been planned out twenty years ago...

No, he knew what he wanted with the scene, at first though he wasn't sure where he was going to put it (at first it was in the "you're the sith lord!" scene. Lucas rightly felt it was too early).
As for it not being planned out, did you watch the first two? Its all set up there.

The fact that Anakin hangs out with Palpatine at all is just crazyness

Where Obi scolded Anakin and put him down, Palps massaged his ego. Played him like a flute, but who wasnt? Amidala, the Jedi, the Seperatists, Dooku, poor old Nute...

and I can't believe that anyone would think that a couple of human guards (force pikes?! EU) could stand up against a Jedi. Yoda, in fact.

[Otal Nimrodi]

Yeah. I feel like saying this.

Yoda pwns u!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111

[Darth Player]

The Force Pikes were part of the SW cannon when ROTJ came out, in fact, T'Bone's SW Universe has a pic of a deteted scene of an Imperial Officer getting zapped by one of the Guards using the Force Pike. The way these guys went down without even a hint of resistance, makes me wonder why in the hell Palpatine would have kept them around "elite of the elite" and all. They're not clones of Jango, because we see them in TPM and before the Clone army appears, so they must have been recruited with their fighting ability in mind, moreso when Palpatine was plotting to become Emperor.

As for Yoda prevailing, sure he could over them, but the idea from palpatine's point of view is to have as many obstacles around to make Yoda's attempt at defeating HIM as difficult as possible, so the guards wearing him out a bit at first would have helped instead of their wuss falling down.

[Zatoichi]

But that was the whole point. "I can't live without her". Not something a Jedi would say, but something a human being would say. You know, he loves, lives, gets angry, gets jealous. crys...

Oh no you don't! Not something a Jedi would say, true. Also not something someone in this situation with a strong sense of personal honor, integrity, or any other good qualities/virtues (well fine, compasion, kindness, love, etc). The Jedi were based on samurai, and it is my opinion that even a shoddy samurai would rather commit sepuku. And since we all know Anakin is certainly a shoddy Jedi. Also, all of this takes away from trying to make it look like Anakin was ever even good. In terms of choosing between saving the entire galaxy (in which there are billions upon billions of people) and saving your wife (who dies anyways because we the audience all know fighting prophecies and such is retarded [and I'd be suprised if he didn't]), Anakin was a very selfish piece of shit, and a dumbass (by modern standards anyways, but a comparison that isn't entirely applicable). I don't know if any decent person would ever choose what Anakin did, especially someone who was raised and trained to hold higher values than the general populace. On that note, it becomes a splendid failure. Whatever George was ultimately going for has for the most part failed in my opinion.

Now consider this for a moment:
Anakin has a lust for more power, and wants to become the most powerful Jedi of all time (or whatever). Anakin and Padme have an open and loving relationship. Palpatine has not yet revealed himself, and is shown to be a close friend and mentor of Anakin's. Anakin is shown to be a good man. The Jedi are somehow framed (think clones) for Padme's death (who is actualy still alive). Anakin is consumed by his grief and rage and then Palpatine reveals his true nature (in a way that he doesn't seem to be such an evil being) and offers to assist him in bringing the about the downfall of those who were close friends and were responsible for the death of his wife and unborn child. I'm sure that many of the details need to be worked out, but that is what I call a tragedy.

The best part is, it doesn't seem so unrealistic, and just about every charater in the movie doesn't look like such idiots.

[diligent_d]

No, he knew what he wanted with the scene, at first though he wasn't sure where he was going to put it (at first it was in the "you're the sith lord!" scene. Lucas rightly felt it was too early).
As for it not being planned out, did you watch the first two? Its all set up there.

No, actually according to the article (and I will say that's all I am going on, despite some pretty strong evidence from the toys and such) that Lucas was struggling with the way the actual scene would play out, right to the end.

Though I guess you have now raised another point that he was also never really sure where exactly to put the scene as well - which further compounds his ill-planning.

Not for nothing, but it's just purely poor planning on his part. Didn't know how the scene would play out and didn't know where to place it either...

[Sailor Abbey]

Anakin has a lust for more power, and wants to become the most powerful Jedi of all time (or whatever). Anakin and Padme have an open and loving relationship. Palpatine has not yet revealed himself, and is shown to be a close friend and mentor of Anakin's. Anakin is shown to be a good man. The Jedi are somehow framed (think clones) for Padme's death (who is actualy still alive). Anakin is consumed by his grief and rage and then Palpatine reveals his true nature (in a way that he doesn't seem to be such an evil being) and offers to assist him in bringing the about the downfall of those who were close friends and were responsible for the death of his wife and unborn child. I'm sure that many of the details need to be worked out, but that is what I call a tragedy.

The best part is, it doesn't seem so unrealistic, and just about every charater in the movie doesn't look like such idiots.

You know, back when I was growing up and we watched the OT just about every other day, Darth Vader was my hero. To mini-Sailor Abbey, Darth Vader WAS star wars. It hurt to see him as a whiney little mommas boy, jumping around spouting off ‘yipees’ left and right. But I let it go after a while. Then in AOTC, I got to see how my childhood hero looked and acted just like this kid who had been stalking me for the better part of three years. It was beyond scary - so I vowed never to watch that creep show again. Then ROTS came out and I thought - well, maybe now at least, Darth Vader will redeem himself as a super villain and I can forgive him for being such a dork and pervert. No such luck. Instead I find out that my favorite bad guy of all time, didn’t really even want to be a bad guy - he just kinda got tricked into it, proving once and for all, that I was an idiot for ever putting that much stock into something that had GLs name attached to it.

I don’t know about you - but I like my good guys questionable, and my bad guys EVIL. Where was the rage? The seething hatred for the Jedi I had imagined all those years ago? Where was the genocidal megalomaniac we had all come to know and love? I would much rather have seen Darth Vader embrace his dark side, rather than kinda stumble into it like a total moron.

[jariten]

Anakin wasn't making the "billions of lives of people or Padme?" trade.
At that point, not only weren't the lives of billions of people in danger (at that point...) but if he sided with Palpatine and destroyed the Jedi, it would actually end the war and bring about peace.
Until the birth of the rebel alliance, the galaxy was at peace,　albeit peace under the iron fist of a dictator. That didn't influence his decision though. His wife did.

(side note- I read a great essay years ago which was titled something like "Was the Empire evil?" which stated something along the lines of the Rebels disrupting peace and being the root of much of the violence that transpires. It was interesting reading anyway)

The choice for Anakin was actually between the jedi on one side and Padme on the other, not the sacrifice of billions. That just wasn't on the cards.
And Anakin was always about clinging to what he loves, being unable to let go. This was on the page in TPM. Then he experiences the tragedy of losing his mother after a dream, then he becomes more desperate for power, then he dreams of his wifes death...
You know, I can understand the choices he made, and why. None of this makes him stupid.

He doesn't even join Palpatine with the idea of being evil. he slips right into the role of the Sith as he immediatly starts plotting his masters downfall. He makes the offer to Padme to join him, then later makes the same offer to Luke. That scene in ESB has changed, now its like Vader starting to regain his humanity, rewatching it the other week, I was disappointed when Luke didnt say "yes".

Anyway i'm wondering off topic.

[Darth Player]

Anybody that builds an orbiting killing weapon called The Death Star can only do so with the best intentions in mind........

This post has been edited by Darth Player: 18 January 2006 - 03:29 PM

[Despondent]

Meh. From what I recall, Vader appears to be feigning interest in the DS to try to keep this new Tarkin upstart from kissing the emp's ass.