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The "Bodyguard" Fallacy What's the Point Of Guards if They Can't Even Stand Up For The

#1 User is offline   Darth Player Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 04:00 PM

ROTS may have ushered in a new onscreen annoyance when you consider it, one where any character who has bodyguards will see that their guards are useless and fall down in no time flat when the shale hits the fan. Greivous' guards are worse than useless, The Emperor's now red personal guards "elite of the elite!" go down without a fight, and Mace's three losers he brings for back-up (I know, not his personal bodyguards per se, but they're there to watch his back) go down for the count before the fight even starts. Lucas got sick of using Vader's Force Choking by ROTJ, but apparently he must have been content with the falling bodyguards or just didn't give a damn by the time ROTS was being made.
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#2 User is offline   Prequel dialogue coach Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 05:39 PM

see dooku has those two droids behind him at the beginning of rots? seriously its like a boxer walking around with two kids behind him as backup.
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#3 User is offline   Darth Player Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 05:45 PM

QUOTE (Prequel dialogue coach @ Jan 15 2006, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
see dooku has those two droids behind him at the beginning of rots? seriously its like a boxer walking around with two kids behind him as backup.



Forgot about that one, maybe there was an "Order 65" where a Jedi or bad guy who could threaten Palpatine's rise, gets let down by his bodyguards during a fight and then becomes more vulnerable himself, but it happened to Palpatine himself in his office, so maybe he'snot immune to "Order 65"?
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Posted 15 January 2006 - 06:07 PM

the three bodyguards going down easily is almost as bad as the jedi getting killed by clones. when luke says "is the darkside stronger?", yoda should technically say "IS IT? of four jedi masters who know they're about to meet a sith, 3 get their asses handed to them in 5 seconds while the other one is toyed with as bait! luke you in deep shit!"
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#5 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 07:03 PM

Not useless, just useless against a Jedi.

About the 3 Jedi going down against Sid...well that was bad, yeah. Although surprise may have counted against the first one going down, the other 2 went down far too quickly. Alas.
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#6 User is offline   Prequel dialogue coach Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 07:11 PM

"Although surprise may have counted against the first one going down"

palpatine had his sabre out for about 10 seconds and had time for a horizontal triple twirl before he even got near the jedi. i think the element of surprise had long gone by the time the first dude and all the other jedi crapped themselves out.
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Posted 15 January 2006 - 08:18 PM

QUOTE (Prequel dialogue coach @ Jan 15 2006, 07:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
"Although surprise may have counted against the first one going down"

palpatine had his sabre out for about 10 seconds and had time for a horizontal triple twirl before he even got near the jedi. i think the element of surprise had long gone by the time the first dude and all the other jedi crapped themselves out.



Those guys also knew they were arresting someone who was strongly suspected of being a Sith, although I'd give them the benefit of the doubt that they may not have known whether Palpatine was a Master or the Apprentice at the time of the arrest.
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#8 User is offline   Otal Nimrodi Icon

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 04:39 PM

QUOTE (Prequel dialogue coach @ Jan 15 2006, 07:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
"Although surprise may have counted against the first one going down"

palpatine had his sabre out for about 10 seconds and had time for a horizontal triple twirl before he even got near the jedi. i think the element of surprise had long gone by the time the first dude and all the other jedi crapped themselves out.


I'm bored. I think I'll say something fanboyish.

It's possible there was some sort of Sith mind trick thing, that only Mace was immune to.

Well, that was fun while it lasted.
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#9 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 06:54 PM

The Palpatine and Mace scene was one of the worst in the whole film. At the start of it Mace wants to arrest Palpatine, and then by the end he wants to kill him, but only as soon as Anakin turns up. Yeah, that's a bright idea.

The three Jedi serve no purpose. Lucas really could have shown Palps to be a monstrous opponent if he'd proved that these Jedi could fight, but this was the first time we really saw any of them at all. The other weird thing is that Mace dosn't take Anakin. Why? It's not as though Anakin can't sense what's going on anyhow and go there whenever he wants. You would think that seeing Sidious PWNing Jedi left and right might tick Ani off a little and make him less likely to listen to Palps, but Mace opted for leaving the most powerful Jedi behind to lurk and instead took three homeless people and gave them lightsabers.

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#10 User is offline   Darth Player Icon

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 07:32 PM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jan 16 2006, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The Palpatine and Mace scene was one of the worst in the whole film. At the start of it Mace wants to arrest Palpatine, and then by the end he wants to kill him, but only as soon as Anakin turns up. Yeah, that's a bright idea.

The three Jedi serve no purpose. Lucas really could have shown Palps to be a monstrous opponent if he'd proved that these Jedi could fight, but this was the first time we really saw any of them at all. The other weird thing is that Mace dosn't take Anakin. Why? It's not as though Anakin can't sense what's going on anyhow and go there whenever he wants. You would think that seeing Sidious PWNing Jedi left and right might tick Ani off a little and make him less likely to listen to Palps, but Mace opted for leaving the most powerful Jedi behind to lurk and instead took three homeless people and gave them lightsabers.



I think it has to do with Mace's distrust/skepticism of Anakin and his relationship with Palpatine, the outbursts in the Jedi Council chamber didn't help. Of course, if you have such doubts, it wouldn't be smart to hope to use Anakin as a spy on Palpatine, but that's what's onscreen. The three Jedi backing up Mace makes little sense because they have little room through the door way to his office to move around.First thing in the logical world would be to fan out and have a chance to take him down, or bring a battalion of clone troopers along for extra muscle, maybe bring the case before the Senate to get justification to arrest him, or a few Senators' support to do something that it appears Mace does almost on his own because he has a grievance against Palpatine and can't wait for the normal course of events to bring him down to face justice. Of course, bringing Clone Troopers would have triggered Order 66 earlier, but they wouldn't have known of it and it may have been more compelling that way. If I were going against Palpatine, I'd use the ship I came in to break through the window that faced his back if the guys who went through the front door didn't get a "I'llcome along peacefully" from him. Their stupidity and going down like suckas almost justifies all of Palpatine's behavior.
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#11 User is offline   Zatoichi Icon

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 01:16 AM

And about Anakin for a sec.

The four jedi went to arrest Palpatine.
By the time Anakin shows up, three of them are already dead.
They may have become "one with the force", but at least their stuff was lying around.
I think it would be hard not to notice what happened to his fellow Jedi, but it is as if Anikin doesn't even care.
He wants Palpatine to stand trail, even after the guy set up the galaxy to rip itself apart in senseless war, resisted arrest, and just offed three off his pals (working on the fourth).
This is the kind of mofo that you just kill.
On top of that, he is a Sith. The Sith are basically the eternal enemies of the Jedi after thousands of years of fueding.
To save Padme or not, you would think that Anikin wouldn't be so hasty to save this guy. I don't care if they were good friends, look at what he is doing to the world around you.
And to top it off right after Anikin chops off Mace's arm, Palpatine offs him too.
I guess he wasn't going to sit around and be put on trail after all.
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#12 User is offline   Darth Player Icon

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 01:14 PM

QUOTE (Zatoichi @ Jan 17 2006, 01:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And about Anakin for a sec.

The four jedi went to arrest Palpatine.
By the time Anakin shows up, three of them are already dead.
They may have become "one with the force", but at least their stuff was lying around.
I think it would be hard not to notice what happened to his fellow Jedi, but it is as if Anikin doesn't even care.
He wants Palpatine to stand trail, even after the guy set up the galaxy to rip itself apart in senseless war, resisted arrest, and just offed three off his pals (working on the fourth).
This is the kind of mofo that you just kill.
On top of that, he is a Sith. The Sith are basically the eternal enemies of the Jedi after thousands of years of fueding.
To save Padme or not, you would think that Anikin wouldn't be so hasty to save this guy. I don't care if they were good friends, look at what he is doing to the world around you.
And to top it off right after Anikin chops off Mace's arm, Palpatine offs him too.
I guess he wasn't going to sit around and be put on trail after all.


That and the fact that Palpatine never gave Anakin a viable demonstration of the supposed life enhancing techniques he says he knew, and then didn't. It would be something if one of Palpatine's regulars was injured and Anakin saw him revive the guy (even if it was a trick) and Palps says "I learned this from some Sith techniques I came across doing research, its not all bad stuff" and Anakin genuinely believes he can take advantage of this knowledge by switching sides. In effect, Anakin becomes the galaxy's biggest dupe #1, and really has no viable justification for betraying all he knew who made him the Jedi he was up to that point.
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#13 User is offline   ion eon Icon

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 01:28 PM

The point is because the look hella-sweet
OH NO!!!
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Posted 17 January 2006 - 01:48 PM

Having shotty bodyguads is one thing, but imagine having a whole army of imbeciles like the Empire had in ROTJ. I always thought that the Imperial Guards were just there for pomp and circumstance, an extravagant display for the Emperor. But you are right about the back up Jedi from ROTS. What a bunch of bungling miscreants.
It seems like everyone is over the nitpicking. Too bad.
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#15 User is offline   ion eon Icon

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 02:05 PM

THEY STILL LOOK COOOOOOOOOOOL....
OH NO!!!
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