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A star wars film written around a glorified NASCAR race

#46 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 06:35 PM

QUOTE
He surrponded himself with yes men


... rolleyes.gif

anyway, back to the podrace?

anyone want to take a stab at that longish post I made a few posts back?

This post has been edited by jariten: 19 January 2006 - 06:36 PM

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#47 User is offline   Darth Player Icon

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 08:13 PM

QUOTE (jariten @ Jan 19 2006, 06:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
... rolleyes.gif

anyway, back to the podrace?

anyone want to take a stab at that longish post I made a few posts back?



If that's all it takes to make you happy....then the Emperor has already won.......
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#48 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 08:17 PM

QUOTE (jariten @ Jan 19 2006, 06:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
anyone want to take a stab at that longish post I made a few posts back?

Well jar, I think everything you said about the motivation for the pod race and its similarity to other movie adventure scenes is all 100% spot on, from a certain point of view. It just happens tobe a point of view I don't share.

I think that the action sequence at the end of STAR WARS has a means-and-ends workability to it, and nothing about it screams stupidity to the extent that we all just can't go along with it. The STAR WARS universe establishes pretty early on that just about anyone can operate just about any kind of machinery, so Luke piloting the X-Wing at the end, foreshadowed by the T-16 oin his garage, is just fine. It works way better than Anikin hitting random buttoms and accidentally blowing up the spaceship that controlled the droids who were arresting Gungun rather than wiping them all out as ordered, and how one robot's head flies off when his controls give out. I mean, that you pretty much have to give me.

Back to the pod race, Lucas tried to sell the idea that Qui Gon had a pile of money and good intentions, but his money was foreign, useful on olnly a million planets but not on Tatooine. He tried to say that Qui Gon had no negotioation options apart from dealing with Watto, and despite his willingness to manipulate minds the patient warrior, international superstar and professional negotiator couldn't find anyone in the whole city who would exchange his money for the local stuff that the junk dealer needed. He tried to tell me that the stakes were high in this race, by making sure I knoew that humans weren't even supposed to be able to pilot these pods, and by showing Sebulba to be a no-good trickster and oooh he makes me so mad!

He just failed. Ultimately the sequence is lame. I admit, it made me pull out BEN HUR and watch it with the surround sound and the big screen, and yeah, the chariot race in that film must have thrilled the panties off a lot of folks in its day. TPM's pod race is a lame parody of it, and it's not even played for laughs.

I know this isn't the sort of rebuttal you're looking for. I can't challenge your points, since of course I recognize that these prequels are just popcorn movies and they aren't meant to stand up to any real scrutiny. It just bothers me that while STAR WARS had just enough respect to hold itself together without too much fan support, TPM (IMO) asks the viewer to meet it more than halfway. Lucas just couldn't be bothered to make it credible on its own. Anone willing to explain to me in a serious time why the gun that blew away Qui-Gon's ship at the beginning of the movie didn't destroy Anikin's little fighter when he "accidentally" landed in the very same hangar will win a free XBox 360, shipped direct from my office in Nigeria. You'll just have to cover shipping, with an affordable deposit of $40.00 to my PayPal account.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#49 User is offline   Darth Player Icon

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 09:11 PM

Good job, Civilian Number Two.

Too bad Lucas was intent on making the PT the way he did just to become the king of the bargain bin at video stores across the land.
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#50 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 20 January 2006 - 12:07 AM

I’m more of the belief that either something is airtight or it isn’t. These films demand a fair bit of you, basically asking that you don’t look behind that curtain at the back of the stage in case you see that it’s just some guy with his hand up the puppet and destroy the magic. Of course, I wasn’t sat there when I was 9 saying, “hey, why do the trench run at all?” “hey, how can Luke fly an X-Wing with no training?” or “hey, why are the Rebels just sitting around waiting to be blown up?” because you suspend your disbelief and just get pulled along for the ride.

I’ll never in a million years suggest that TPM even comes close to being half the film that ANH is, but honestly, seriously, the pod race works in exactly the same way as that end space battle. If I’m going to look at the thing objectively, I’d say it works better, as Lucas seemed to have put more effort into the mechanics of it.

I’ve said this before, but the podrace wasn’t the only way they could’ve got off the planet, it was Qui Gon’s way of killing two birds with one stone. A way, in fact, that everyone else seemed to think was lunacy. But god damnit, Qui believed in the little nipper, believed that he was the chosen one etc. etc.

“Why doesn’t their money work on Tatooine?” is a fair question (even though I thought Lucas put enough time into explaining it- starting with 2 Jedi who’d never even heard of the place), but isn’t it just as valid to pick holes in ANH’s end space battle by asking “Why didn’t the Death Star pull out of orbit around the other side of Yavin?”?

That’s just one in a series of scriptwriting shortcuts so Lucas can have Luke emerge as the hero at the end.
I agree with anyone who says, “that space battle was more enjoyable”, but not with “it was more credible”.

...I feel like i'm just repeating myself now...i've probably said everything I can about the subject. Seriously though, don't get me started on 'Lucas is surrounded by yes men!' thing!
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#51 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 20 January 2006 - 01:38 AM

"...I feel like i'm just repeating myself now...i've probably said everything I can about the subject. Seriously though, don't get me started on 'Lucas is surrounded by yes men!' thing!"

You seriously deny this?

He put more into the Pods because there was nobody to hold him back. As for execution, maybe the phantom menace was more technical. But Star Wars had more talent.
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#52 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 20 January 2006 - 02:14 AM

I'll deny it because i've seen a lot of evidence to suggest that he takes a lot of advice onboard from the people working around him.

But mostly I deny it because it always feels like the last refuge of the damned. You know, "I can't think of anything else so i'll just trot out this one Kasdan quote I have and that proves that!".

Like writing Lucas as Luca$...
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#53 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 20 January 2006 - 11:30 AM

To me, the pod race feels like it just stops the film cold. I thought the point of the heroes was to "save Naboo"---in all considerations, getting Anakin off Tatooine is not part of this plan.

In ANH, the plot is there from beginning to end. Beginning: Plans to destroy the ultimate weapon. The ending: they're trying to destroy the ultimate weapon.... it's bookend. It works.

In TPM it's like, "save the queen" and then "save the slave" and... it's just all this unneccessary things thrown in the way. I don't know why Lucas couldn't have saved this concept for something else. I mean, this is what he did with abandoned ideas for like the Ewok TV movies.

If Lucas wanted to do a true "kids film" he could've taken the pod race, taken Jar Jar Binks, and all of the little cartoony characters we bashers hate and put them in a spin-off film called, "Pod Racers" starring Jar Jar Binks and his slapstick adventures in pod racing.

And then leave the PT's to be more adult ala' ANH & ESB, and if parents felt the PT's were too much for younger kids, then they could take them to "Pod Racer" until they were old enough to see the PT (much like Spielberg made "We're Back" because Jurassic Park was too intense for younger kids).

Lucas had nothing to worry about. He would've made a killing off the spin-off, too.
Flying Ferret

Battle for the Galaxy--read the "other Star Wars"

All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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#54 User is offline   Darth Player Icon

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Posted 20 January 2006 - 12:05 PM

CowboyCurtis inadvertently came up with the answer as to why and when the PT was destined to suck bigtime. Basically, it started with the Ewoks telemovies and the Droids cartoons to a lesser extent. Maybe Lucas' personal problems (divorce/raising his child on his own) had a lot to do with wanting to finish the darned OT with ROTJ in a hurried pace, but the desire for more $$$ through ther telemovies took the saga on an irrecoverable path which delivered a PT the way we see it. In effect, Lucas took his cue from Disney, who make a lot of cash with their films because they play to the kids who have to be takien to a theatre with either one or both parents and siblings were applicable. Since two PT films were made with the PG rating, ensuring a big crowd turnout for ROTS wasn't a big problem, especially since it was billed as the final end of the saga (except for the upcoming, yet in the works TV series, etc.....)
Getting the kiddies to come in demands a film that has certain trappings, and it necessitates the slapstick humor which more often than not didn't work onscreen. Lucas and Speilberg learned a lesson from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, where parents supposedly had to run out of the theatres with their traumatized kids because of the violence, and hence we got a lot of campiness with the third film and everything since. Since the parents didn't want to be parents and read reviews because a Steven Speilberg film was supposed to be family oriented automatically, Speilberg and Lucas had to become the parents by diluting their future films to get the $$$.
Personally, i also believe that both aren't as creative as they once were, i don't know why that happened, but it did. It would have been cool if there were a scene in the PT where Anakin goes into a cave like Luke did in Dagobah to see what his destiny could be and he makes the wrong choice knowing that, but it wasn't to be. The same recycled cliches that made up the PT just get really annoying to focus on continually. What was once a great series of stories is just a massive let down.
But if it helps more kids eventually get acquainted with the greatness of the OT, there may be a silver lining in all that dreck after all.
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#55 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 20 January 2006 - 07:26 PM

QUOTE
In TPM it's like, "save the queen" and then "save the slave" and... it's just all this unneccessary things thrown in the way.


This is a good point well put.

I'd still stress though that the film is bookended just like you say ANH is.
It starts with the forceful occupation of a planet and ends with the liberation of it.

Like I said a few posts back, the main difference between ANH and TPM (apart from quality obviously, none of us are going to dispute that) is that Lucas was more ambitious with TPM.

Without going into it too much, the two main characters in the PT are Anakin and Palpatine.
Taking TPM, Palpatine (and Sidious) motivate the backbone of the plot- the TF invasion, the Jedi rescue, the escape to C., then finally the liberation of Naboo.

the second story is how does a slave boy become a Jedi (as far as Padawan in this case).

I think that Lucas does a pretty good job of intertwining those two main stories into a fairly interesting and cohesive whole.
Even when we become involved in the 'Anakin' part of the story, Lucas is careful to give us constant reminders of what the actual goal is, and what the real motivator of the plot is.

They get a message from Naboo, we go to C. and see Sid and Maul talking about the Queen, Maul lands on Naboo etc.

It never feels to me like Lucas is messing about too much. It feels tight overall.

What spoils that somewhat for me is the extended DVD cut of the podrace, which pads out the run time with pointless diversions.
Why he added that to the DVD, but left out the Padme family stuff from AotC is beyond me.

anyway...

oh and I disagree that ANH or ESB were ever made for adults, or had 'adult humor'. SW has always been aimed at the same rough age group (9-15 year olds). He def. 'lightened up' TPM too much, but he still had those same guys in mind when he wrote it.
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#56 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 12:15 AM

QUOTE (Prequel dialogue coach @ Jan 12 2006, 05:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
can you think of a better reason to describe why the prequels sucked?


what? what do mean glorified NASCAR?

you mean glorified Go-Cart...

Nascar rocks!

Darth Nascar
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#57 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 09:14 AM

oh and I disagree that ANH or ESB were ever made for adults, or had 'adult humor'. SW has always been aimed at the same rough age group (9-15 year olds). He def. 'lightened up' TPM too much, but he still had those same guys in mind when he wrote it.

Oh no, you're absolutely right, I agree, I guess what I'm trying to say is that since the audience for ANH-ESB "grew up" and the PT storyline essentially is a heavier theme (we're talking betrayal, mass murder, etc.) it ought to have been conciously made with a 16-36 audience in mind. But, you know, people still would've brought their kids to it. I know people who brought their kids to Matrix.

Like I said a few posts back, the main difference between ANH and TPM (apart from quality obviously, none of us are going to dispute that) is that Lucas was more ambitious with TPM.

Essentially what you're saying is there are more than one storylines floating around. ANH had one storyline and everything revolved around that. I don't mind other story arcs in a film, but I just wish it had been executed better. To me, TPM will always be jarring (no pun there) in its storytelling.

Like I say, I like the pod race, I just wish it would've been used elsewhere. Somewhat like I had speculated. Make a kiddie's film (and it doesn't even have to be all that kiddish) called "Pod Racer" it would've been great fun. smile.gif It just wasn't for me in TPM. Just didn't feel like it fit. sad.gif
Flying Ferret

Battle for the Galaxy--read the "other Star Wars"

All I know is I haven't seen the real prequels yet.
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#58 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 22 January 2006 - 10:02 AM

I would have liked to see Sebulba have a Solo/Vader conversion experience. Stowing aboard the Queen's ship, vowing to fight for the good, jumping out of nowhere on Naboo, to knock Darth Maul to his death, at the cost of (snif) Sebulba's life.

Or maybe keep him around to take on General Grevious! If he could be turned, Sebulba would've made the kick-ass jedi I *can* imagine shooting the breeze with Obi-wan in an elevator. And he was an excellent pilot as well.

This post has been edited by Despondent: 22 January 2006 - 10:03 AM

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#59 User is offline   Jedi_1138 Icon

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Posted 21 May 2006 - 03:39 PM

Hm, lots of interesting posts.

So, ok, my two cents...
The race should be a dramatic highlight of the movie. Will Anakin succed? Can he manage to free himself and to get the parts needed to leave Tatooine? Do we care?
No, we don't. Well, anyone who's a Star Wars fan doesn't anyway. Because we know. We knew even before we paid the tickets for TPM. The whole PT is about Anakin becoming a Jedi, then being seduced by the dark side...

And that, by far, is my biggest problem with the whole pod race.

That it is so forseeable.
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#60 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 21 May 2006 - 08:20 PM

yeah... totally.

i mean when you watch ANH the destruction of the death star is not made to look easy...

alot of dramatic turns take place, even though it's safe to asume that we did not follow the life of our young hero just to watch him die... (or fail)

but when it comes to prequels, it's a matter of filling in gaps...

to credit TPM Quigon was a character you liked, who you knew was not around by ANH, but that was to be 30 years later... and it could have just as easily been the pending clone wars in which he would die, so his character had some uncertainty to it... and that's who fills that quota of story telling in a prequel of any kind.

the uncertainty of the story is not tied to the character we know survives the ordeal or a character narator where one exists...

but the pod race most certainly was a complete waste of time becuase it's biggest aspect was the danger and we already knew aniie lives... at least by AOTC we had the uncertaintly of how well he was goin to come out of anything because we knew he'd end up in the DV suit. but we knew he was pretty tall by that time so the pod race had nothing to offer, and only stole valuable screen time from other avenues left unexplored...

introducing grevious by episode 3 without even a mention in 2 was another screw around because we knew he'd die... they just introduced a corpse and tried to make him sound important, but we'd never heard of him!

and giving him an already injured status didn't help either...

General Grevious: "ahhh... skywalker at last we meet."
Anakin: "ahhh... and you are?"
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