[jariten]

im talking about over a third of a star wars film's plot handed over to a go kart race, not the end battle of SW: ANH. there's nothing enthralling or mystical about it. it's a waste of time, and a triumph of action set pieces over story.

But you're not giving me anything here beyond a subjective take on it, which we'll just argue into the ground forever.
You wanted to criticise the PT (?!) by saying the plot of TPM (?!) was written around the podrace (?!), which is a "triumph of setpiece over story(?!).
Well, none of that is actually true for a start, but can't you see how easily all your criticisms can be easily applied to ANH?

if you think about it, the first half plot is designed to get a podrace going. why would qui gon, a jedi, give up on a toydarian who is immune to mind tricks and walk away? why doesn't he pull out his lightsabre and demand the parts, citing the enormity of the situation with people dying on naboo? he just walks away casually. he's a jedi, but his mission is to save people. surly they're not arguing about the ethics of robbing a corrupt slave owner of his parts? was that really a poorer solution than waiting for days to put a bet on a car race?

then, you got anakin making a bet to free himself. why? why doesn't qui gon and obi wan come round and threaten watto to free both of them? it's almost as lame as the two jedi wimping out at the beginning of the film when two driods who walk 1 mile an hour scare them away, thus not reaching the viceroy and ending everything there.

The short (and correct) answer is that the Jedi have no jurisdiction there.
Presumably you would agree with Qui cutting a defenseless Watto in half to get what he wanted (the next step after his 'peaceful' method to trick Watto failed). How they would have lived up to their "champions of peace and justice" titles then!

The longer answer is-
Qui gives up on Watto, but they had just reached Tat and Qui was onto the next option. Then he met Anakin and everything changed. After he meets Anakin, his priorities shift from not just Naboo but also to getting this kid (who he is convinced is the chosen one) to Courascant.
Maybe you think thats wrong too, and the other Jedi would agree with you. They didnt care much for Qui's methods either. But those methods never involved uneccesary violence or threats of violence.
Your going down a dead end with that one.

[Lord Aquaman]

can you think of a better reason to describe why the prequels sucked?

Hell, there are lots of reasons why the prequels sucked. Building the first prequel around a NASCAR race was just one of them, but I suppose that if we were to try and identify one specific root reason we could always go with the tried but true style-over-substance syndrome. Of course, that was a problem long before Star Wars came along.

[Despondent]

The Hoth battle was only 15 minutes long. Including setup and conclusion.

How long was the Pod race, from first mention till Watto let him go?

[jariten]

The Hoth battle was only 15 minutes long. Including setup and conclusion.

How long was the Pod race, from first mention till Watto let him go?

A good chunk of the film. Why? Are you going to argue that the only thing accomplished in that time was the podrace?

[civilian_number_two]

Jariten, the pod race was pointless. It did not resolve a lifelong enmity between Ben Hur and Messala that had begun early in the film, developed through slavery and imrisonment and culminated in a head-to-head in the arena. No, it just stole several of the shots. And it's not a main plot driver; it's set up as an accidental side trek on the road to get the queen from one place to another. It's really a stupid, and stupidly motivated scene. Lucas tried to set up that the pod race was the only way to get that boy, and our heroes, off the planet. Fact is we had a pair of highly skilled professional negotiators and the queen of a planet, and between the three of themn they couldn't manage to sell a perfectly marketable spaceship in exchange for an prepubescent slave boy and a few bus tickets to the largest city in the galaxy. That is pretty much the definition of sacrificing story in favour of action set piece.

At least the battle at the end of STAR WARS was about something. The rebels wanted to destroy the machine that had blown up Alderaan. Hey, who wouldn't? To apply the same sort of dramatic driver to THE PHANTOM MENACE, it's necessary to accept the stakes. Since the stakes are senseless (see above), then I need to be able to accept that for some personal reason, little Annie NEEDED to win that race, and maybe Qui-Gon needed it too. Lucas tries to set this up with his Dickensian series of coincidences, but they're all just hopelessly strung together and they're too easy to work around. It's screenwriting laziness. Lazy too is his effort at making a villain out of Sebulba. Messala he is NOT, and in the end, when his pod crashes, we're robbed of the homoerotic scene wherein he refuses to see a doctor before Annie sees him first, broken and beaten and on the verge of death, but still able to stab beyond the grave with the news of sister and mother in the valley of the lepers. That alone might have made the whole pod race worthwhile.

[jariten]

Unlike ANH, TPM has multiple plot lines. One of those is how does a slave boy become a Jedi. The answer is he frees himself. He frees himself while (and all of this is connected to the pointless set piece in question), for example fleshing the character out with whiz kid tendencies to build cars in his spare time (he’s 9), being the only human (he’s 9) who can actually race the thing, leading Qui off on the “chosen one” stuff which becomes a bigger plot point later on, and most importantly showing off an altruistic side which will only reappear in the last film when he throws old Palps down the shaft. Lucas uses it for character stuff, you know he’s smart, he cares, he’s kind, but he still gets angry and he’s still ready for a fight. He isn’t swept off his feet, he fights for it.

If you’re asking where is the dramatic tension that exists during ANH’s end space battle, don’t forget that he podrace is only the climax of the middle, Anakin part of the story, and not the conclusion to the whole film. It does serve the story in so much that they have to get off Tatooine, but it’s Anakins story really. Clearly you hated it, but watching the kid give his all with no thought of getting anything in return provided enough dramatic tension to give Anakin’s TPM story a satisfying climax.

And if we’re talking sketchy set-ups, the whole climax of ANH is a series of events barely pinned together on the backs of the grand incompetence of all involved. Why didn’t the rebels just evacuate Yavin? Why didn’t the Death Star pull out of light speed around the other side of the planet and just blow the shit out of it there and then? He seems to pull the SPACESHIPS! DOGFIGHTS! stuff completly out of his arse

This is forced, lazy scriptwriting in the service of a set piece.

Unlike TPM, Lucas didn’t even bother explaining how an untrained farmboy who’d never flown an x wing before was able to survive long after fully trained pilots had bitten the dust (he had a token “flying in a simulator” scene but he cut it). Say what you like about the podrace, at least it was well integrated into the script.
Again, I’m not trying to make some stupid “which is best?” case, and i'm not denying that Civ makes some good points.

I'm just trying to show that, again, all I see in a lot of PT criticism in the media and elsewhere is a set of double standards that love to put on the rose tinted glasses when they look at the OT, then whip them off when discussing the PT.

[Despondent]

I'm just trying to show that, again, all I see in a lot of PT criticism in the media and elsewhere is a set of double standards that love to put on the rose tinted glasses when they look at the OT, then whip them off when discussing the PT.

Fine then. I'll look at the OT without rose colored glasses, and not look at the PT whatsoever.

[Darth Player]

Lucas had a vision of a two headed announcer with idiotic lines like "That's gotta hurt, no matter what part of the galaxy you're from!" and he had to contrive an equally idiotic race around all that.


And seriously, how was the big faced M & M looking guy supposed to race, let alone think he was going to win when he couldn't move his body around really well on the ground let alone in the racer?

This post has been edited by Darth Player: 18 January 2006 - 12:27 AM

[Despondent]

He was the animator's learning curve.

[jariten]

And seriously, how was the big faced M & M looking guy supposed to race, let alone think he was going to win when he couldn't move his body around really well on the ground let alone in the racer?

a lame stab at humor?

[diligent_d]

That's one of the biggest problems with the PT - the humour is for crap. This is a trend that began in ROTJ and was compounded with the release of the OT special editions, before reaching ludicrous levels when the Phantom Menace came out.

In the first two Star Wars, you didn't have all that slapstick bullshit humour that is prevalent in the PT (and to a degree in ROTJ, especially in Jabbas palace). Poodoo jokes. Rontos bucking Jawas off them. Muppet-looking Pod Racer drivers. Droids bonking smaller droids on the head. Pit Droids fighting. Droids switching heads and still functioning (how in the living hell can anyone defend that???).

The humour in ANH and ESB had a more adult feel to them (despite the mildly questionable use of terms like "laser brain" and such). For the most part, the humour was more subtle and wasn't as forced - thus making it work. Now with the PT, it's all reliant on gimmicks and sad references to past films ala "Why do I feel you will be the death of me?"

This post has been edited by diligent_d: 18 January 2006 - 02:15 AM

[CowboyCurtis]

Jariten you act like this was the ONLY way the prequels could've been made. You do not give measure at all to a BETTER way of it being made. We bashers accused of being stubborn, but boy are gushers stubborn in the belief that this was THE ONLY way the prequels should've been written--that's what galls me most. You're not even open a little to the possiblity...

If the OT's were so bad, then don't you think that 20-25 years later, don't you think that with SFX advancing so much, that at least story-writing and delivery would advance, too?

Do you see what I'm saying?

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 18 January 2006 - 12:56 PM

[CowboyCurtis]

Jariten... um... let me backtrack a bit. Disregard last thing I wrote. Let me reiterate what I'm sure I wrote to you before---I'm glad you enjoyed the prequels, and obviously, many others did, too, for it made a shitload of money, but I didn't. And, I just want you to know it's not because of "high expectations" or anything. In fact, I had total trust in Lucas before TPM came out, I really did, I was ready to forgive him for ROTJ if he could make it all work.

But I was disappointed. That's all there is to it. The only expectation I think I had is that should FEEL like Star Wars to me. There are couple of very rare moments throughout the PT's that feel a little bit like Star Wars, but it's not enough to make me stand up wave the PT banner. Far from it. I just wanted to feel Star Wars again, and I didn't. Now with all this tearing down of the OT, I feel it even less nowadays.

So, again, I'm glad you and others enjoy it. I envy it a bit, but I can not compromise my values as a Star Wars viewer to accomplish what you've got. So, more power to you, but I just don't want people (gushers) ragging on me for NOT liking it.

I know you don't do that to us, but a lot of the times, especially the friends I have who somewhat liked it, I feel like an outsider. Only here on Chef's forum or at the Basher's Sanctuary, do I feel like I have a proper place which to well... bitch. Is that so bad?

[diligent_d]

The only expectation I think I had is that should FEEL like Star Wars to me.

Well said. That was what hurt while watching the PT's - it didn't seem like I was watching an episode of Star Wars.

[Prequel dialogue coach]

Fact is we had a pair of highly skilled professional negotiators and the queen of a planet, and between the three of themn they couldn't manage to sell a perfectly marketable spaceship in exchange for an prepubescent slave boy and a few bus tickets to the largest city in the galaxy. That is pretty much the definition of sacrificing story in favour of action set piece.

case closed.