[jariten]

My original intentions for this post were just to draw attention to the fact RotS won something. Thats it. I didnt have any grand agenda or mission to "prove" anything (which I suppose I already knew anyway. I was in Japan when RotS was released and it spent 6 weeks at no.1. Again, no measure of quality, but a great measure of popularity).

When you try to dilute the popularity of these awards, I agree in a way. I agree to the extent that I dont even want to be having this argument with you. I have to wonder though, why you want to discount the votes of 22 million people as not being at least some measure of popularity (aside from it not being a perfect representation of the movie going public (which we'll never get), or the fact that there was only 3 films in each category (standard in all award shows))
and I also wonder if you could answer the question "why was RotS nominated in the first place?".

You're right about IMDB. When I said "the best we have" I was referring to other award shows. Doesnt the IMDB system support multiple votes from each voter? Just curious.

And whats this "thanks for being patient" buisiness about, D?

[Harmonica]

My original intentions for this post were just to draw attention to the fact RotS won something. Thats it. I didnt have any grand agenda or mission to "prove" anything

You may not believe this, but I can understand and respect that. However, regardless of your original intentions, when you made the statement that it was the highest accolade that Lucas could receive, I felt that that was somewhat out of order and required a response. Again, I could theoretically make a topic about how, according to the IMDB, the OT is overwhelmingly preferred over the prequels, but if I said that that was indicative of anything, that would be rather silly of me.

I didnt have any grand agenda or mission to "prove" anything

If you state that your opinion is fact and cannot or do not attempt to prove it, you don't make much sense.

I have to wonder though why you want to discount the votes of 22 million people as not being at least some measure of popularity (aside from it not being a perfect representation of the movie going public (which we'll never get), or the fact that there was only 3 films in each category (standard in all award shows))

Several points here:

-I've stated my intentions that I'm merely trying to express that any attempt to gauge popularity is ill-advised, ineffectual, and pointless in the long-run. I'm also saying that when one makes an observation and calls it a fact without any evidence or basis, it's still an opinion

-It was 21 million according to my source, so could you provide a link to yours?

-It's far from simply "not being a perfect representation of the movie going public". It's outright nonsense and to hold it as the highest honor of anything is rather irrational in my opinion.

-Again, there are not necessarily 21 million people behind 21 million votes. Nor were all of those votes necessarily for Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith. I would be just as qualified to state that only 800,000 voted for it. I do not because that would be silly. Just as silly as claiming that it was a unanimous victory.

-I am unfamiliar with any other award shows that limit their categories to three apiece (I've seen award shows with options ranging from five to ten, actually, so I'm somewhat sure that it's not standard for all award shows), so I would appreciate for you to cite some of them.

and I also wonder if you could answer the question "why was RotS nominated in the first place?"

Certainly. I actually answered this question in my very first post. I'd recommend you go back and read it, but if you don't wish to, a basic summary of the process is that a board of 6,000 members chose from a pre-selected list of candidates of the year. They choose what they consider to be the top three movies and that is the nomination process. The point I made is that if you choose from the larger, more inclusive sample of the IMDB about a more inclusive list, Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith was not even in the top five movies of the year.

When I said "the best we have" I was referring to other award shows.

Ah, I misunderstood you and thought that you were referring to the best method of measuring popularity. I apologize for the mistake.

Doesnt the IMDB system support multiple votes from each voter? Just curious.

It allows a user to vote for multiple movies, yes. But because users have to register, they are only allowed a single vote per movie. This prevents rather crazed fans from voting a perfect 10 on a movie ten thousand times and skewing the results.

Any other questions or points you have? I'd be more than happy to address them.

[Despondent]

And whats this "thanks for being patient" buisiness about, D?

Because I can only bang my head against a wall so long before I lose interest, and I'd still like to see the fight for the right (with fresh material even) continue against an onslaught of "oh yeah?"

[jariten]

Because I can only bang my head against a wall so long before I lose interest, and I'd still like to see the fight for the right (with fresh material even) continue against an onslaught of "oh yeah?"

Excuse me a second, then, i'm just passing through...

harmomica, you're so polite it's unnerving...

Anyway, just to clarify something. I originally said

SW are a series of entertaining popcorn flicks, pure and simple. They have been since '77. For the paying, movie going public to acknowledge that is the greatest compliment they could give Lucas.

This is something that I stand by and always stand by. You can point out the flaws of voting systems like this, and of course you're right. I mean, as you pointed out they're all flawed aren't they?
Why i'll take the PCA over, say, the Oscars, is that the PCA's are the only award show capable of reflecting at least some modicum of the popular concensus. And the reason for that, of course, it that the votes were tallied based on the votes of actual people. 22 million is not a perfect representation of the 'movie going public', but it is an awful lot of people. Thats why i'll take this as the best measure of popularity we have until something better comes along.
(and if the old gallup system of choosing nominees was taken this year, what do you think the three choices wouldv'e been?)
What I liked even more though was the line

a widely watched measure of movie, television and star appeal.

(Thats probably the reason I posted it in the first place).

[jariten]

Anyway D, i'm surprised this thread would bother you at all. We aren't discussing the merits and failings of RotS, just it's popularity (something we don't need an award show to prove anyway, but there you go).

[Laughlyn]

It allows a user to vote for multiple movies, yes. But because users have to register, they are only allowed a single vote per movie. This prevents rather crazed fans from voting a perfect 10 on a movie ten thousand times and skewing the results.

And since the net's the fanatic's playground, you really expect IMDB statistics to be accurate? IMDB's been hit before for spawn\fanboy voting. For example a guy like me could create 1000 E-mail addresses on his $5 server and vote a perfect 10 for hand of manos if I was inclined to. Same as I'm sure you could If you wanted to really bash the PT.

The problem with IMDB is that only the haters and fanboys vote. (and of course the self appointed 'critics')

Yes, you could suggest that 800,000 starwars PT fans mass posted to get to number one, but then isn't that a sign of how much ROTS ment to them? If the Bashers had cared as much they'd have voted against it, and by the choice of movies on offer it'd be a difficult choice to justify.

Crackpot conspiracy theories don't wash as an arguement.

Edit:Oh fech it, I edit every bloody post anyhow....

This post has been edited by Laughlyn: 15 January 2006 - 07:43 PM

[Despondent]

Harmonica is a new member. I liked his material, hence the compliment.

Jar, I remember when Star Wars won the people's choice award in '78. I celebrated the win, but I felt it was a hollow victory somehow. Honestly. At least Star Wars was up for a measley Academy Award.

Top 5 award shows

[Harmonica]

Anyway, just to clarify something. I originally said "SW are a series of entertaining popcorn flicks, pure and simple. They have been since '77. For the paying, movie going public to acknowledge that is the greatest compliment they could give Lucas."

I fully realize that you orginally said that, and I apologize for not making that clearer. But in my originally posts, I took that to be an open invitation for well-thought out discussion on the merits of the system and whether or not the People's Choice Awards truly is such an acknowledgement.

This is something that I stand by and always stand by. You can point out the flaws of voting systems like this, and of course you're right. I mean, as you pointed out they're all flawed aren't they?

I'm glad that you're at least open-minded enough to agree with me on my point that the system is flawed. However, I would still like to hear more of your reasons as to why you will always stand by the People's Choice Awards. That seems a bit hasty and blind to me without any concrete reasons.

Why i'll take the PCA over, say, the Oscars, is that the PCA's are the only award show capable of reflecting at least some modicum of the popular concensus. And the reason for that, of course, it that the votes were tallied based on the votes of actual people.

I agree with you on the point of the People's Choice Awards being more qualified than the Oscars based on its reliance on at least some of the public as opposed to the Academy Voters, and perhaps you could argue that it is the most qualified award show, but I would still like for you to provide me with some solid evidence that shows that it is the best measure of popularity is.

Thats why i'll take this as the best measure of popularity we have until something better comes along.

I apologize in advance for sounding like a broken record, but I'd like to reiterate my wish for you to provide me with factual reasons why, for the sake of simple debate, the People's Choice Awards is better than the IMDB.

Lastly, I'm still trying to figure out where you're getting the 22 Million figure. I gave you my source for 21 million, and still await you're source.

and if the old gallup system of choosing nominees was taken this year, what do you think the three choices wouldv'e been?)

Anything that I would state here would be pure conjecture. If were to go by the Top 250 list, then it would be Downfall, Crash, and Sin City.

a widely watched measure of movie, television and star appeal.

As I stated in post number 1 to that exact quotation, that it is a measure of movie appeal is merely the opinion of whoever wrote the article.

And since the net's the fanatic's playground, you really expect IMDB statistics to be accurate? IMDB's been hit before for spawn\fanboy voting. For example a guy like me could create 1000 E-mail addresses on his $5 server and vote a perfect 10 for hand of manos if I was inclined to. Same as I'm sure you could If you wanted to really bash the PT.

A. I have already stated that I don't consider the IMDB Statistics to be truly representative of the public, though they make a noble, if incredibly misguided and in the end pointless effort to try. I am merely using it as example of an equal, if not superior alternative to the People's Choice Awards.

B. Are you remotely familiar with the IMDB's voting system? Only the votes of regular voters are considered for the final average. Your Manos Hands of Fate analogy, while I find it clever, fails because of this. For your 1000 email addresses to have weight, you would need to vote on multiple movies on a semi-annual basis. Moreover, your 1000 votes, even if you could manage to get them to count as regular, would have only moderate effects on the final average.

C. You claim that the IMDB's use of the net is a handicap of some sort due to the fanatics while you exempt the People's Choice Awards usage of the net as well? Sorry, but I'm having trouble following that logic, so could you elaborate on that for me?

The problem with IMDB is that only the haters and fanboys vote. (and of course the self appointed 'critics')

Uh... You're joking, right? That's a personal speculation and a generalization based wholly upon bias, lacking any solid facts to back it up.

Yes, you could suggest that 800,000 starwars PT fans mass posted to get to number one, but then isn't that a sign of how much ROTS ment to them? If the Bashers had cared as much they'd have voted against it, and by the choice of movies on offer it'd be a difficult choice to justify.

You're treating the votes for either Batman begins or Hitch as though they were solid "No" votes to Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith. That's not true, and even if it were true, I could argue that it's possible that Batman Begins and Hitch both got 700,000 apiece, collectively adding up to 140,000 No Votes that do lose to Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith's 800,000 Yes votes.

Crackpot conspiracy theories don't wash as an arguement.

Calling something that has provided plenty of hard reasons a 'crackpot theory' without giving a single piece of evidence as to why they're crackpot theories doesn't wash as an arguement either. Sorry, Charlie.

Hey, Despondent, thanks for the compliment. I also especially appreciate that link you posted. I needed a laugh and that summarizes my beliefs in measures of popularity perfectly.

This post has been edited by Harmonica: 15 January 2006 - 09:30 PM

[jariten]

OK, my main reason why I'll take the PCA as the best measure of popularity that we currantly have (and of course we both agree its flawed at best) is...

Its the award show voted for 'by people' that gets the most media attention, and therefore, the most votes. I know you consider 21 million (sorry, 22 was my mistake!!) people to be a mere drop in the ocean, which it is. But its still a lot of people. More than the population of Scotland, in fact.
So its a high profile awards show that garners a lot of attention from (I think), a wider cross section of the population of the world than, say, IMDB does. The amount of people who voted on the IMDB poll compared with the PDA's attest to that.
Then again, only 3 films in each category. I find it hard to believe that someone would vote for a film that they didnt care about just because it was there to be voted for.

I think most people are the opposite in fact. If the three options were Harry Potter, King Kong and Narnia, I wouldn't have voted for anything.

They voted for the film because they cared about it and wanted it to win.

Anyway, Harmonica, I thought (no offense intended!) that you were a girl for some reason. Maybe because you remind me of a poster who doesnt come around here much anymore called Helena.

[Harmonica]

Now we're getting somewhere.

Its the award show voted for 'by people' that gets the most media attention, and therefore, the most votes. I know you consider 21 million (sorry, 22 was my mistake!!) people to be a mere drop in the ocean, which it is. But its still a lot of people. More than the population of Scotland, in fact. So its a high profile awards show that garners a lot of attention from (I think), a wider cross section of the population of the world than, say, IMDB does. The amount of people who voted on the IMDB poll compared with the PDA's attest to that.

You raise a good point about the media coverage, but if I went by these measurements, I would still give a slight edge to the IMDB since it actually publishes the number of votes. As it is, with the People's Choice Awards, we still can't determine for sure whether or not Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith received a unanimous victory or a minority victory. Also, the IMDB has an average of eight-million user hits a week. You can make of that information what you will.

They voted for the film because they cared about it and wanted it to win.

Fair enough. Those who voted for it probably did wish for it to win. But still, it wouldn't hurt the People's Choice Awards to release a vote break-down.

Anyway, Harmonica, I thought (no offense intended!) that you were a girl for some reason. Maybe because you remind me of a poster who doesnt come around here much anymore called Helena.

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Heh, don't worry about it. We all make mistakes. It's perfectly understandable.

[jariten]

Fair enough. Those who voted for it probably did wish for it to win. But still, it wouldn't hurt the People's Choice Awards to release a vote break-down.

I'd like that too. I doubt they'd do it, but the info might be lurking online somewhere.

[Zatoichi]

I step out for a bit and ...

So many freaking long ass posts to read!

My Lord in Heaven!

*head esplodes*

I think I'll try again later.

[Darth Player]

The only awards show worth watching is the teen Choice Awards, because the audience is stacked with all these wannabes they drag off the streets to fill seats and the winners get this big ass surf board as the prize in lieu of a statuette. Its funny to see these rail thin teen actresses who were in one successful thing and are in between filming their E! True Hollywood Story about how fame is a bitch and cocaine is everywhere they went in Hollywood, drag this big assed surf board off the stage while they wear the highest heels their handlers could find. And the catagories are a hoot as well, pretty much catered around whatever it takes to get the then currently famous person to appear.