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1213 Chat, discuss, piss and moan about this newfangled game

#61 User is offline   Yahtzee Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 05:52 AM

1213 is very much an experiment in what I can do with AGS, because making things other than adventure games with AGS is sort of a hobby. I've tried all sorts - anime style RPGs, even a 2D beat-em-up once, but few of them work out well enough (to my eyes) to then expand into a game. GFW was one of the few (it has a slow start admittedly but I do wish you'd play for longer, it gets better), as is 1213. It has its flaws, it's not for everyone, obviously not for you, but this is the purpose of experimentation.

I could make more adventure games - in fact, I do have expansions in mind for the Days series on the drawing board - but I'm not as into them as I used to be. Adventure is a very limited genre and is largely dead these days for good reason; adventure gameplay is linear and unsatisfying to all but the most nostalgic adventure nuts like you or I. I stopped writing for Adventure Gamers, and have been experimenting with using AGS to expand on conventional adventure gameplay, for these reasons.

Because games like 1213 are experiments I don't spend much time on the graphics, no, because I want to concentrate on the development of gameplay and storyline. I don't spend time looking for music, either. A lot of people have suggested or even offered to make music for them but I feel uncomfortable with relying on others that way. I tend to regard music as a tool, and if there's a public domain tune around that conveys the atmosphere I'm after then I'll use it rather than lose time getting something unique composed.

I notice you single out the shower health system for complaint. Why? It's no less absurd than healing yourself by applying morphine or drinking sugary drinks, or even regenerating lost tissue to full health by slapping on a bandage, like in most if not all combat games. Being healed by showers I felt made some kind of sense, in that cold water refreshes the body and numbs pain. Besides, it kind of foreshadows certain things that will be revealed about 1213 later on. One sentence from your diatribe that leapt out was "1213 constantly tries to stay "realistic" for immersion purposes", but I've no idea where you got that idea from. I don't know whether you noticed all the zombies and stuff but 'realism' was by no means my intention (can a completely 2D platform game ever be considered realistic, anyway?)

And who is this Ben person you keep talking about? I'm Yahtzee. I prefer that name and go by it in person when I can. Being called Ben kind of irks me.
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#62 User is offline   Dank Panties Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 05:52 AM

PS

From the 1213 webpage " You can also skip individual lines of dialogue with the ENTER key or by clicking the mouse, escept in the intro."

The intro is precisely what I was referring to in my post, precisely want I wanted to speed through.

Therefore my point remains valid. So tongue.gif .
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#63 User is offline   Yahtzee Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 05:55 AM

QUOTE (Dank Panties @ Jan 15 2006, 10:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
PS

From the 1213 webpage " You can also skip individual lines of dialogue with the ENTER key or by clicking the mouse, escept in the intro."

The intro is precisely what I was referring to in my post, precisely want I wanted to speed through.


Yeah, I deliberately made it so the speech couldn't be skipped in the intro, because I kind of liked the way the visuals synced up with the music, and skipping the speech would have spoilt it.
As I walked through the valley of the shadow of death, I realised that it could do with a lick of paint.
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#64 User is offline   Dank Panties Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 06:01 AM

QUOTE (Yahtzee @ Jan 15 2006, 05:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Because games like 1213 are experiments I don't spend much time on the graphics, no, because I want to concentrate on the development of gameplay and storyline.


If it's an "experiment" then why would you already plan THREE GAMES in the series?

An experiment I would think would be a "one off".

QUOTE (Yahtzee @ Jan 15 2006, 05:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't spend time looking for music, either.


Do me a favor and tell me the three most "supenseful", "frightening", "immersive" games you've ever played.

QUOTE (Yahtzee @ Jan 15 2006, 05:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
rather than lose time getting something unique composed.


Should "art" be so rushed? All of the pigments are important to the final hues.

QUOTE (Yahtzee @ Jan 15 2006, 05:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's no less absurd than healing yourself by applying morphine or drinking sugary drinks, or even regenerating lost tissue to full health by slapping on a bandage


I think that hitting some morphine or applying pressure to bullet wounds with bandages would make just a "tad" more sense, personally. As for the "cold numb shower" aspect, well, I don't remember that being explained in the game.

QUOTE (Yahtzee @ Jan 15 2006, 05:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
"1213 constantly tries to stay "realistic" for immersion purposes", but I've no idea where you got that idea from.


From the fact that in the game's intro, when Mr. X is talking to you ad naseum, it seems everything he says he backs up with some sort of "plot device" to keep the diatribe "plausible". Plausibility lead me to believe you were going for immersion. If I was wrong on that aspect then I withdraw my previous statement to this effect.

QUOTE (Yahtzee @ Jan 15 2006, 05:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And who is this Ben person you keep talking about? I'm Yahtzee. I prefer that name and go by it in person when I can. Being called Ben kind of irks me.


Then why tell people your name is Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw on your site? Why not just say "I'm Yahtzee".
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#65 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 06:08 AM

Dude, chill.
QUOTE (Dark Panties)
As for the "cold numb shower" aspect, well, I don't remember that being explained in the game.

One word: Common sense.
QUOTE (Dark Panties)
Then why tell people your name is Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw on your site? Why not just say "I'm Yahtzee".

Sure. Publish everything under a synonym. Sounds smart.

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#66 User is offline   Yahtzee Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 06:10 AM

QUOTE (Dank Panties @ Jan 15 2006, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If it's an "experiment" then why would you already plan THREE GAMES in the series?

An experiment I would think would be a "one off".


I came up with a story. And now it has to be told, properly paced. This is an eccentricity of mine.

QUOTE (Dank Panties @ Jan 15 2006, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Should "art" be so rushed? All of the pigments are important to the final hues.


I don't see anything wrong with the graphics anyway. Just about the only difference between 1213 and 7DAS graphics is I didn't apply Photoshop light filters. The style is unambiguous and practical and that's what I needed.

QUOTE (Dank Panties @ Jan 15 2006, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think that hitting some morphine or applying pressure to bullet wounds with bandages would make just a "tad" more sense, personally. As for the "cold numb shower" aspect, well, I don't remember that being explained in the game.


I prefer keeping the element of mystery, and I don't think the player needs to be whacked over the head that way. What would you have preferred? Some kind of Metal Gear Solid-esque lengthy scientific explanation of why cold showers make you feel more energised?

QUOTE (Dank Panties @ Jan 15 2006, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Then why tell people your name is Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw on your site? Why not just say "I'm Yahtzee".


Because my mum reads the site. Shush.
As I walked through the valley of the shadow of death, I realised that it could do with a lick of paint.
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#67 User is offline   Dank Panties Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 06:15 AM

QUOTE (Gobbler @ Jan 15 2006, 06:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sure. Publish everything under a synonym. Sounds smart.


There are tons of celebrities (in all forms of media) whom publish their works under nom de plumes.

It is smart actually. Do you -really- want all the nutbags in the world knowing your -real- name?

I don't. There are people like me out there... unsure.gif
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#68 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 06:21 AM

I guess I was referring to the legal aspects there. The people you're referring to still have quite good possibilites to ensure that their copyrights aren't violated by some bastards. Not the same situation in this case, I'm afraid.

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Pop quiz, hotshot. Garry Kasparov is coming to kill you, and the only way to change his mind is for you to beat him at chess. What do you do, what do you do?
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#69 User is offline   Dank Panties Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 06:26 AM

QUOTE (Yahtzee @ Jan 15 2006, 06:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is an eccentricity of mine.


Well then, I hope that that eccentricity leads to a final Days game. I would buy another Days game, the actual game, not even a "special edition"... just to see the "trilogy" wrap itself up nicely and tie all the loose ends.


QUOTE (Yahtzee @ Jan 15 2006, 06:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't see anything wrong with the graphics anyway. Just about the only difference between 1213 and 7DAS graphics is I didn't apply Photoshop light filters. The style is unambiguous and practical and that's what I needed.


I meant the whole game as "art", not the actual "art" in the game.

And there's a lot more than PhotoShop filters going in here:



Compared to this:




wink.gif

QUOTE (Yahtzee @ Jan 15 2006, 06:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What would you have preferred? Some kind of Metal Gear Solid-esque lengthy scientific explanation of why cold showers make you feel more energised?


Actually, yes. The more you make me believe in the plausibility of your game, the more I'm drawn into its little world and feel the need to finish it, and better yet, remember it fondly later. When I'm running around shooting people with guns and there's blood on the walls, I feel "this is based in some sort of reality", so I expect things to lean towards that. If I was shooting banana lollipops at cyclops umbrella monsters, then no, the shower wouldn't of stuck out.

QUOTE (Yahtzee @ Jan 15 2006, 06:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Because my mum reads the site. Shush.


Well, I hope she hasn't read your last post. wacko.gif

--

Look, I hate to be the stupid bastard that looks a gift horse in the mouth. So let me say that I -do- truly appreciate your efforts and your games. I just wanted to let you know where the flaws were, because when you're "so close" to your art, you can't always see the cracks in the paint, dig? It happens to the best of us, even me. smile.gif

In a better world you would already of been picked up by a gaming company, or at least as a consultant.

And in a better world, the Adventure game would of evolved within its own convention. And perhaps it has, if you know where to look.

I look forward to anything else you do Yahtzee, don't think I don't.
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#70 User is offline   Yahtzee Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 06:34 AM

QUOTE (Dank Panties @ Jan 15 2006, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Look, I hate to be the stupid bastard that looks a gift horse in the mouth. So let me say that I -do- truly appreciate your efforts and your games. I just wanted to let you know where the flaws were, because when you're "so close" to your art, you can't always see the cracks in the paint, dig? It happens to the best of us, even me. smile.gif


Well, I'm glad you clarified, because going by the original post - and the fact that you already posted it on the AGS games index AND the AGS forum - one could easily assume you were making a one-man attempt to bring me down, what with calling me a hypocrite and accusing me of self-deification and all that.

Edit: and the phrase 'sour slimey stale badly designed mess' leaps out, too, since you emboldened it; I know it doesn't refer directly to me but judge the works, judge the man.

This post has been edited by Yahtzee: 15 January 2006 - 06:36 AM

As I walked through the valley of the shadow of death, I realised that it could do with a lick of paint.
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#71 User is offline   Dank Panties Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 06:40 AM

QUOTE (Yahtzee @ Jan 15 2006, 06:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, I'm glad you clarified, because going by the original post - and the fact that you already posted it on the AGS games index AND the AGS forum - one could easily assume you were making a one-man attempt to bring me down, what with calling me a hypocrite and accusing me of self-deification and all that.

Edit: and the phrase 'sour slimey stale badly designed mess' leaps out, too, since you emboldened it; I know it doesn't refer directly to me but judge the works, judge the man.


Fair enough. But if only you knew how many people I've told about your games in a -positive- light, both on and offline. I've dropped links to your swag for the better part of two years like a seagull drops bombs when it sees a bald head. And I pointed out in the AGS forums that I had nothing against -you- personally.

I do not believe in the saying "judge the works, judge the man".

Perhaps, "refine the works, refine the man".

But I must say that Animal Crossing stinks. tongue.gif
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#72 User is offline   Dr Lecter Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 07:12 AM

I know what you mean, AGS can be used for alot of other things than adventure games, it just takes porgramming and imagination. I'm flirting with the idea of a AGS conversion of the board game "Diplomacy", or possibility another turn based strategy game, who knows, maybe even an original one. I haven't even bothered starting it yet but after my current project I may well start it. But I don't think it will be too hard.
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#73 User is offline   Grimboy Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 04:18 PM

That was a fucking amazing game, I thought I would have prefered another adventure game but I liked the variety, reminded me of another world and Mission Impossable on the sega mega drive. The walking was a way to slow. he's in a weak state, fair enough but the rate at which he moves in a bit rediculous.

I didn't relise that the crane thing was a toggle and seeing no immediate reation I stabbed at it an even amount of times meaing that the ventilation shaft was closed. So until I realised that I'd done just that I was stuck for about 15 minutes of wandering.
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#74 User is offline   Pudding Icon

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 06:16 PM

Downloaded 1213. It's good. Really good. The atmosphere is good, and the beating heart health meter is a cool idea, except I can't figure out when the next hit is definitely going to kill me. I'd suggest some sort of color based system, but that would really ruin it.

Good bits? The zombie getting up after you walk a bit past him was good, but having him get up while I'm walking over him would have definitely freaked me out. Or having EVERYTHING in the room suddenly get up to kill me.

Limited ammo would have been nice, making things tenser and forcing you to decide whether to find some way to avoid the zombies or guards, or gun them down. The respawning enemies got sort of old, I eventually stopped wasting time shooting zombies - I just went close and hit jump to get past them. Rather than have respawning enemies, couldn't the game remember they were dead, and just put several extra enemies into the room to compensate?

Overall, totally awesome and worth every kilobyte, a precious commodity on my small hard drive. Can't wait for 1213 Part 2.
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#75 User is offline   Monkeyman1138 Icon

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 09:21 PM

I have to say I quite look the graphical style in 1213, it's simple yet somehow detailed (e.g. each blood splatter on the walls are different) Eagerly awaiting the next part.
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