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What I learned from Revenge of the Sith yes, I actually LEARNED!

#16 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 10:25 AM

QUOTE (jariten @ Dec 10 2005, 11:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I didnt like the way Lucas treated Padmes death, but theres no doubt that it 'fits in' with the universe.

Discomfortably sticking with the story. I admire that.
Tell me. Have you ever heard of the tragedy of Mr. Mean Guy?

How about simply dying at childbirth. Not O Henry enough for Lucas?
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#17 User is offline   Gerhard Icon

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 10:55 AM

QUOTE (jariten @ Dec 11 2005, 03:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But Padme isnt a real human being, this is what i'm saying. Shes a fantasy character living in a fantasy world


A fantasy world molded after ours, that is way there are Humans. and like us, they eat, they breathe, they fall in love, etc.
Why would something like wanting to die in 5 minutes would happen if it does not happen to us? For me it does not make sense, at all. Why do you say it fits in the universe, when apart from the Jedi, humans are like us?

all other things you described, are believable, but you are comparing different things.

the magic you refer to, or the force is just a religion, we have a lot of religions on earth who could have magic powers, even the most popular one has a lot of non-natural tricks, like miracles and so on (if it's true or not it's another story).

I belive in the Force (in the SW universe) but I cannot believe in a 5 minute death for losing the will to live. But that's me.

and, it was not at all necessary, she could have died from giving birth complications or because of the Force Choke, but no, Lucas had to make is "love story" more profound (and clumsy may I had)
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#18 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 01:15 PM

Really it should have just been made clear that she was GOING to die. That would have been a bit more mature. That way she would have been able to linger on and raise Leia as she's supposed to to hang out with Leia. Dying of a broken heart over a period of time is believable, and it could have been more dramatic than her lame death.

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#19 User is offline   Travis Mays Icon

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 02:00 PM

What really should have happened is Obi Wan should have given Padme a C-section with his lightsaber and then jetisoned her corpse into space where it would one day drift into the engine of a Star Destroyer and cause the ship to explode in a mighty ring of fire. That would be a noble death.
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#20 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 04:37 PM

Yes, it's kind of ironic that Anikan wants to be able to prohibit her healthy ass from dying,
when natural law itself cannot prevent such a lame plot point to prevail.
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Posted 11 December 2005 - 04:44 PM

Jariten: You're right about the whole fantasy thing, but there is a limit to it. Adding a piece of magic to a story doesn't give you license to do anything you want. "Hey they bought the jedi mind trick, so what about force-proof heads?"

Ok, force lightning: now I have to accept that lightning can shoot from the fingertips of a human being because of magoc, because someone earlier told me that magic was behind force lightning. All right, if I move on from that, tou're now telling me that I am required to accept literally any other thing that the filmmaker throws at me?

Ok, so Padme dies from a loss of will. You're asking me to accept the same reasoning. You say "come on, you bought the force lightning."


So ... Padme dies ... because she was held together by magic?

Bedevere: Good! And what else is made of wood?


Your argument is like saying that we should accept poor adherence to the laws of gravity in KING KONG, because we all know that there aren't any giant apes anyway. So if we accept the giant ape, then why should the special effects guys worry about the laws of gravity?
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#22 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 07:21 PM

QUOTE (Paladin @ Dec 10 2005, 08:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I really don't know what everyone is so confused about with the 'sith seeking revenge' thing. I thought it was very obvious.

The Sith probably had a bid for power earlier on and the Jedi stepped up and stopped them. This vexed the Sith and forced them into hiding and they apparently (and silently) vowed revenge when the time was right. Why is everyone so confused over this?


probably? that's good enough....

it's a trilogy.

A new hope - some one stole the plans... sweet, we have ANH
the Empire strikes back - after loosing the death star, damn straight.
Return of the jedi - Luke returns to vader to fight him (revenge made more sense)

now...

the phantom menace - everyone's being menaced by a phantom aparently... trade federation says hi.
attack of the clones - erm... somewhere near the end they attacks the unphantomly common robots.
revenge of the sith - the sith use the clones they used to aid the republic against the droids of the federation they hired to attck them... so they hunt down all the jedi who never interfered at any point because they didn't know what was going on, infact palpy sets up dooku fo a fall, and tries to leave obiwan behinf in 'revenge' for him comming to rescue him... what the hell is going on? it should have been called dirty set-ups of the sith come into fruition.
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#23 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 07:36 PM

also... han solo preincess leia and luke were always described as humans...

those people that look hmuan in the SW galaxy ARE human.
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#24 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 08:29 PM

When I said it ‘fits’ into the world, I meant the world of fairy tale and fantasy. While I probably would’ve preferred Padme’s death to have been done at the hands of Vader, I don’t find the method of her death to jar with the overall mood of the world that Lucas created. I do understand the ‘pushing the fantasy boundary too far’ argument though, and this is arguably the furthest that Lucas has pushed it. Esp. in the midst of the overwhelming darkness of Siths climax though, I’m willing to suspend my disbelief this far. It seems like this is another me against the world discussion though.

So how about that local football team, hey?
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#25 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 08:53 PM

i can't believe that local team willed themselves to loose against the non-locals...
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#26 User is offline   Invisible Hand Icon

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 10:25 PM

Has it been considered that Padme's death was meant to be solely metaphorical, in that her death occurs just as the greater Republic looses its will for democracy and destroys it?
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#27 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 11 December 2005 - 10:51 PM

But Padme HAD no will whatsoever. She was not a strong character like Leia. She was not a staunch defender of democracy, she just got kind of dragged to the rebel alliance meetings. She was a FUGGING MONARCH for chrissakes!

She submitted to the advances of someone she knew to be creepy, murderous, hanging out with Palpatine, and against democracy.

There was one time when her devotion to democracy exceded making stupid comments, and that was when Anakin offered her to join him. This, handled properly, could have been a powerful moment where Padme had everything offered to her, power, love, the death of a tyrant she opposed, etc. But instead of crafting the story to where she might be conflicted Lucas, once again, just has the character say "Nope." and thats it. She really dosnt exibit any will of her own during the whole thing.

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#28 User is offline   Prequel dialogue coach Icon

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 05:02 AM

I wrote this on imdb, it's about ROTS having little emotion, hence the duel in the final moments of ROTS being just a showpiece becuase the two characters are poorly developed:

no emotion in the PT? in terms of emotion between characters through simple story and thematic elements and interaction, yes. (we'll discard the ani and padme thing - the worst 'romance' ever).

hmm in the originals you had vader vs luke. vader is the relentless, intimadating and dark leader of the empire and luke is a jedi novice and hero of the rebellion coming up against what he thinks is his father's killer. there - a set up for a good duel. this is all set up by the end of the second film that ends with a shocking and emotional revelation.

(and this is the set up for the ROTS duel over THREE films:)

TPM: obi wan and anakin don't know each other. anakin's a good podracer (seriously, you had luke blowing up the death star, in this one anakin is introduced at being good at driving the star wars equivalent of highspeed go cart racing - "when i first knew him you're father was already a great pilot, no sorry podracer. man you shoulda seen those luke they were bad ass"). ps i'd like to point out he destroyed the droid control ship by pure luck and his ship was on autopilot. obi wan is a background character to qui gon.

AOTC: here, obi wan is good at solving 'mysteries' and doesn't trust politicians and if anakin's wit was half as good as his blah blah "i hate you, you're like my father (even though its never shown), padme obi wan is holding me back blah blah". there, that's the characterisation for this film, as they are split up for 85-90% of it.

ROTS: their relationship as extremely close friends is supposed to be developed (and evident) through their radio link as they fly in separate spaceships amongst an enormous space battle and in attempting to rescue the chancellor - apparantly anakin is very protective of r2-d2 and attempted "loose wire jokes". a humerous chat here and there and some token bitching about not trusting a chancellor and its "goodbye old buddy". what? surely there's more? so next time they meet they're having a massive emotional speech?

the part where anakin is on the lava bed is emotional because of the sheer shock of seeing this happen, i think i would've been moved a lot more if obi wan's final speech to anakin actually had some weight to it that could be evident throughout the PT films. that was teh ultimate problem with the prequels, when characterisation was massively neglected for overlong chase sequences and podracing.
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#29 User is offline   georgelucas4greedo Icon

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 11:23 AM

QUOTE
This, handled properly, could have been a powerful moment where Padme had everything offered to her, power, love, the death of a tyrant she opposed, etc.


I never thought about this...if she loved democracy so much..why not let Ainiken kill the wrinkly old Palpy...Then, since it is easy to manipulate Darth Vader, she could convince him to restablish democracy and everyone is happy!!!
It seems like everyone is over the nitpicking. Too bad.
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#30 User is offline   Zatoichi Icon

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Posted 12 December 2005 - 02:38 PM

Yeah, but Anikan couldn't even take on Obi-wan. What would he do against Palpatine? And he is so easy to manipulate, that Palpatine could probably convince him to kill her instead. Especially with the motive she would be having at the time. Still, sometimes characters just make mistakes and don't think of the greatest ideas, so you shouldn't be too hard on them. It shouldn't be so extremely obvious that they screwed up badly all of the time, either.
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