[Prequel dialogue coach]

empire is by far the best star wars film. even fans who love the prequels must know when they watch this film that its something different. it's just so much better. star wars had the action (but virtually no emotion bar john williams' legendary score) and empire introduced you to a broader scope - everything was perfect, the battles, the characters, the music the villains. ROTJ took the previous empire's build up and realised it couldn't do anything with it. i think the end of empire is the true ending of star wars (as gary kurtz said star wars was supposed to take a totally different route after empire) and have you noticed "that boy is our last hope" no there is another line has gone completely out the window thanks to ROTS?

[jariten]

yes, its the best.

I'm not sure about your RotS bit though.

[Prequel dialogue coach]

obi wan was present when both twins were born. yoda is bascially saying that kenobi knows nothing of leia despite the fact he helped deliver her.

[jariten]

good point.

[StarWarsIsUs]

"[...]obi wan was present when both twins were born. yoda is bascially saying that kenobi knows nothing of leia despite the fact he helped deliver her.[...]"

Yes, good point.

[Gerhard]

obi wan was present when both twins were born. yoda is bascially saying that kenobi knows nothing of leia despite the fact he helped deliver her.

The official explanation to that is that maybe Obi-Wan did not rate girls as possible warriors, or simply had forgotten Leia was not an option because she "was too old to be trained" or better, forgot her because of "The Force"

My personal explanation is that Lucas, once again, forgot his (and a lot of other persons) work on the OT and did not remembered that line from Obi-Wan in ESB. Also Yoda just says "there is another" he does not even imply that is Luke's Sister, at the of ESB it could be anyone, chewbacca, Yoda's mother in law, whatever. Lucas just decided the Luke sister being Leia when writing ROTJ to wrap up the trilogy.

I read somewhere that ended the first ideia for "the other one" was Luke's twin sister, but it was not supposed to be Leia, instead ROTJ would be something like a quest to find the hidden Luke's Sister. But Lucas choose the easy (and less believable) path.

[jariten]

But this is a flaw thats always been present in SW though right? How are you attributing this to RotS?

[Zatoichi]

I figured it out! Somewhere along the line of events, Obi-wan was temporarily replaced by his clone OB1 on several occations. That could explain everything. Everytime it happens, it takes place off screen. [343GuiltySpark] I am a genius! [/343GuiltySpark]

(Insert insane maniacal laughter here)

[Jordan]

The real explanation is that lucas decided to make leia the sister between ESB and ROTJ.

[Lord Aquaman]

I figured it out! Somewhere along the line of events, Obi-wan was temporarily replaced by his clone OB1 on several occations. That could explain everything. Everytime it happens, it takes place off screen. [343GuiltySpark] I am a genius! [/343GuiltySpark]

(Insert insane maniacal laughter here)

Yes... that is the most likely explanation.

[KurganX]

The official explanation to that is that maybe Obi-Wan did not rate girls as possible warriors, or simply had forgotten Leia was not an option because she "was too old to be trained" or better, forgot her because of "The Force"

My personal explanation is that Lucas, once again, forgot his (and a lot of other persons) work on the OT and did not remembered that line from Obi-Wan in ESB. Also Yoda just says "there is another" he does not even imply that is Luke's Sister, at the of ESB it could be anyone, chewbacca, Yoda's mother in law, whatever. Lucas just decided the Luke sister being Leia when writing ROTJ to wrap up the trilogy.

I read somewhere that ended the first ideia for "the other one" was Luke's twin sister, but it was not supposed to be Leia, instead ROTJ would be something like a quest to find the hidden Luke's Sister. But Lucas choose the easy (and less believable) path.

Yeah, Obi-Wan's forgetting of Leia is a serious flaw, even worse than the father's lightsaber one or the "Vader betrayed and murdered your father," or "years ago you served my father," and "never owning a droid," crap. At least these can be exlained away as exaggeration or "a certain point of view" rationalizing. But not this one...

He forgets about Leia, even though he helped deliver herm, true. It isn't as if he thought she died, because she was alive and well when he last saw her (and he knew about the plan to give her to the Organas, and her first name was never changed!), plus even though his spirit didn't appear in front of Leia until the end of ROTJ (and we don't know for sure if anyone besides Luke can see them then anyway) it's not like he couldn't have "observed" and see that Leia was fine. She was the same age as Luke, so she'd have aged four years beyond when Luke began his training, and yet Obi-Wan was more willing to begin training Luke at his "old" age, not reluctant at all like Yoda (who made it more of an excuse than anything). And Yoda planned for Luke to train Leia anyway, per ROTJ.

And as a Jedi Spirit he's still as ignorant as before?

This really is a major continuity gaffe!

Edit: To clarify, it was not really a gaffe until ROTS, because instead of explaining it, they simply screwed it up, by making Obi-Wan forget all these important people and events in his life 19 years ago.

True, ROTJ decided that Leia was the "other" and Luke's sister, which Lucas made up as he went along (just like having Vader be Luke's father in ESB respectively). But the real gaffe is in ROTS since they at least could have attempted to explain why Obi-Wan didn't know about Leia's potential. It's like the R2D2 gaffe.. they could have made an effort to seperate the two in the story instead of slamming them together to make it more exciting for that one movie, and stomping all over established continuity in the process.

The only explanation is senility that follows him into the afterlife I guess! Had his memory erased in Anchorhead...

This post has been edited by KurganX: 04 December 2005 - 02:44 PM

[jariten]

No, this is an unfixable OT mistake. Obi knows nothing of Leia in 5, but suddenly knows all her backstory in 6? How could RotS have fixed that mess?

[Gerhard]

True, ROTJ decided that Leia was the "other" and Luke's sister, which Lucas made up as he went along (just like having Vader be Luke's father in ESB respectively). But the real gaffe is in ROTS since they at least could have attempted to explain why Obi-Wan didn't know about Leia's potential. It's like the R2D2 gaffe.. they could have made an effort to seperate the two in the story instead of slamming them together to make it more exciting for that one movie, and stomping all over established continuity in the process.

The only explanation is senility that follows him into the afterlife I guess! Had his memory erased in Anchorhead...

I'm not sure about it's a ROTS issue
This was in the movie:

LUKE
But I have no sister.

BEN
Hmm. To protect you both from the Emperor,
you were hidden from your father when you
were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if
Anakin were to have any offspring, they would
be a threat to him. That is the reason why
your sister remains safely anonymous.

LUKE
Leia! Leia's my sister.

BEN
Your insight serves you well. Bury your
feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit.
But they could be made to serve the Emperor.


But the script had more, which never made to the movie:

Luke looks into the distance, trying to comprehend all this.

BEN (continuing his narrative)
When your father left, he didn't know your
mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew
he would find out eventually, but we wanted
to keep you both as safe as possible, for as
long as possible. So I took you to live with
my brother Owen on Tatooine... and your mother
took Leia to live as the daughter of Senator
Organa, on Alderaan.

Luke turns, and settles near Ben to hear the tale.

BEN (attempting to give solace with his words)
The Organa household was high-born and
politically quite powerful in that system.
Leia became a princess by virtue of
lineage... no one knew she'd been adopted, of
course. But it was a title without real
power, since Alderaan had long been a
democracy. Even so, the family continued to
be politically powerful, and Leia, following
in her foster father's path, became a senator
as well. That's not all she became, of
course... she became the leader of her cell
in the Alliance against the corrupt Empire.
And because she had diplomatic immunity, she
was a vital link for getting information to
the Rebel cause. That's what she was doing
when her path crossed yours... for her foster
parents had always told her to contact me on
Tatooine, if her troubles became desperate.

Luke is overwhelmed by the truth, and is suddenly protective of
his sister.

LUKE
But you can't let her get involved now, Ben.
Vader will destroy her.

BEN
She hasn't been trained in the ways of the
Jedi the way you have, Luke ... but the Force
is strong with her, as it is with all of your
family. There is no avoiding the battle. You
must face and destroy Vader!

So the original view by Lucas for ROTJ is that Ben knew Leia's existence all the time (as Luke's Sister), not sure why in ESB he seems to be unware she even exists! But of course, Owen changed from Obi-Wan Brother to Anakin step Brother, and Leia was supposed to have lived with Padme for at least a couple of years, Lucas , again, Changed all this

[barend]

But this is a flaw thats always been present in SW though right? How are you attributing this to RotS?

it was smudge. ROTS made it a 'flaw'
ROTS turned a scratch into a gaping hole!

if Obi-wan had only known she was pregnant and only yoda present during the 'birthing' (blech) then it would have been fine.

this is my whole point about the PT. the few responsibilities that come with making such films have been overlooked. and the oportunity to repair minor glitches was not only wasted but became a bizar quest to make things worse... like a surgeon who asks for a suture and gets handed a jackhammer.

sorrry, jar... i went a little analogy heavy there...

[barend]

--------------

and continuing from above...

LUKE
ah... you know i snogged her.

BEN
who

LUKE
liea... my sister

BEN
that's disgusting

LUKE
well maybe if you had said something when we first went to rescue her it could all have been avoided. especially after the embarrasing display i gave han after we got her...

BEN
hmmm...

LUKE
so i tried to kill my father and i made out with my sister... anyother family secrets i should know before i commit any other crimes against nature?

BEN
well, now that you mention it the emporer's your grandfather... but not in the traditional sense so it might be okay to at least kill him.

This post has been edited by barend: 05 December 2005 - 07:13 PM