[georgelucas4greedo]

"I see you have constructed a new lightsaber. Your skills are complete." -- Vader to Luke in ROTJ

'nuff said.

[Vesuvius]

In the book of ESB, it seems that Luke stays with Yoda for a few months. You got the sense of progression in time. As for the film, it felt like a weekend retreat. But hey, Yoda was also blue in the book... Oh, and Luke fell about 40 feet from the underside of Cloud City and smacked into the windshield of the Millenium Falcon, ...so um, yeah, there were some modifications and such to deal with.

I just always thought more was happening on the Millenium Falcon all while Luke was on Degobah, but we focused more on Luke. Preferably, I would have liked to see Yoda toss various objects at Luke and teach him how to cut them up with his lightsaber. (sighs and shakes head) ...The book was so much better...

[johnnycancer]

Wow, I never thought about any of this before, but this does bring up a good point. As people have already said, the offical time between ESB and ROTJ is one year, and, since it appears that Luke's skills have markedly improved since ESB, it's probably safe to say that he was doing some kind of training in between there. There are passages in Shadows of the Empire that support this, but, I don't want to have to point to that as evidence. I think it's enough to say that we're told a year passes, and in that year Luke's skill improves, so, he's probably been training.

But, I agree, I don't think he was training with Yoda. I think when he goes back to Dagobah and Yoda dies, that it really is the second time that he's been there. That was always the impression I got while watching the film.

but 10 years to 3 weeks is a big difference for someone learning something.

Now, that's a pretty important point. I'd have to agree, although, that really is a problem created by the PT rather than one that exists in the original trilogy. But then, it's also important to note that after Luke's training in ESB - whether it was 3 weeks or 3 hours - he wasn't able to defeat Vader. I would guess that the fact that Luke is even able to last as long as he did against Vader is because Vader was simply toying with him. You can draw analogies between the Yoda and Palpatine battle - both were so powerful that fighting with lightsabers was beneath them. Similarly, Vader could crush someone's throat using the force, and when he uses the force to pummel Luke with objects, it's clear that Vader never needed a lightsaber in the first place to win that fight. So mostly all he's doing is testing Luke and trying to maunver Luke into a position where he must either join the Dark Side or die.

So, at least in ESB, there's no point where Luke ever seems as if he's on the same level as a Jedi Master - which makes sense since that would take close to 10 years, from what we know from the PT. The same cannot be said for ROTJ.

When we first see Luke in ROTJ, he appears to be on par with Obi-Wan, as he uses Jedi Mind Tricks with ease and shows much greater ability in using The Force in general. And, at the end, Luke is able to defeat Vader in a lightsaber duel. So, clearly there was some progression there between the two films.

But, even if we grant that there was a full year in between the two movies, and that during that year Luke trained a lot, how would Luke (with a year of Jedi training) be able to defeat Darth Vader, a Dark Lord of the Sith who was arguably the most powerful Jedi alive and who had a lifetime of experience and training to draw on?

Well, given what we know from all 6 movies, there probably isn't a good answer for that one.

You could argue that Luke, like his father, was just naturally gifted in using the force, and so that helped level the playing field. You could also argue that by that point, Vader's injuries had severely impaired his fighting abilities, and that's how Luke was able to defeat him. But, neither of those are very good explanations.

So, I'd have to agree with the original post. It's not a problem in ESB, but it does raise some issues in ROTJ. But then, I really, really blame the PT for this...

johnnycancer

[Storm]

I find it hard to believe that a year was present between ESB and ROTJ. At the end of ESB, Chewie and Lando were leaving the medical frigate to find Han on Tatooine. The would mean they spent an entire year on Tatooine before C-3PO, R2-D2, Leia, and Luke showed up. That's a bit of a stretch.

[StarWarsIsUs]

Yes, it is.

(Time between ESB & ROTJ): I only saw it originally as being a few weeks. Maybe two or three weeks. NEVER 365 + days. That is a stretch indeed.

There is also the problem of ESB. Listen up, guys.


If Luke had spent too much time of Dagobah, that would mean the stormtroopers would have waited that long.

For instance: Some say Luke trained with Yoda for a month in ESB. How is this impossible?

LANDO SAYS THE STORMTROOPERS ARRIVED "SHORTLY BEFORE YOU DID". Meaning before Han and Leia got to Bespin. And Luke left AFTER they were captured by the troopers.

So did the troopers sit on Bespin and wait a month before capturing Han and Leia? Yeah. Right. Whatever.

This post has been edited by StarWarsIsUs: 21 August 2006 - 02:05 AM

[johnnycancer]

I find it hard to believe that a year was present between ESB and ROTJ. At the end of ESB, Chewie and Lando were leaving the medical frigate to find Han on Tatooine. The would mean they spent an entire year on Tatooine before C-3PO, R2-D2, Leia, and Luke showed up. That's a bit of a stretch.

Here's the dialogue in question:

LANDO: (into comlink) When we find Jabba the Hutt and that bounty hunter, we'll contact you.

LUKE: (into comlink) I'll meet you at the rendezvous point on Tatooine.

Now (good God I hate to do this) but, I have to nitpick what Lando and Luke are saying here. Lando says that when he and Chewie FIND Boba Fett and Jabba the Hutt THEY WILL CONTACT LUKE. In response, Luke says, he will MEET them at the rendezvous point on TATOOINE.

Lando never explicitly says that he and Chewbacca are going to Tatooine right away. Lando says they're going looking for Boba Fett and Jabba. The plan might have been to try and intercept Boba Fett before he got to Tatooine. This may also mean that Jabba is not always on Tatooine (if he was, why would they have to FIND him? Jabba lived in a palace, he wasn't hard to find). Or perhaps Boba Fett was actually going to meet Jabba at some point between Bespin and Tatooine? Lando might have known details like that since he was present when Boba Fett is discussing Han's fate with Darth Vader.

Similarly, Luke does not say that he's going to Tatooine right away either. What he says is, that once Lando and Chewbacca CONTACT him, THEN he will meet them at their rendezvous point in Tatooine.

Leia does not seem to be included in any of these plans.

I realize that this is a very narrow interpretation of what those lines mean. I'm not really trying to argue that this isn't a flaw in the movies, but, I do want to play Devil's advocate and see if there isn't some reasonable explanation.

In ROTJ, we find all of the heroes on Tatooine, and now Leia is a part of the plan as well, which makes me think that somewhere along the way they had to reevaluate their strategy for getting Han back.

Similarly, when Luke shows up at Jabba's palace, it seems almost coincidental, as if Lando and the others contacted him, were waiting for his arrival, decided they couldn't wait any longer, and then decided to go along without him. If Luke was just going to Tatooine right away, then, why wasn't he in Jabba's palace with Leia, Lando, and Han? Why go through the ruse of allowing Leia to be captured trying to rescue Han? This might explain why they failed so easily, because Luke was a key part of their plan and he wasn't there.

Similarly, Lando appears to have been hired as a guard in Jabba's palace. Could that have happened in a couple of weeks?

I'm not saying the plan alone took a year to execute. But, if Lando and Chewbacca didn't leave with the intention of going to Tatooine first, but rather of trying to track down Boba Fett, that could have taken substantial time. And, do we know that Boba Fett didn't have any business to take care of in-between Bespin and Tatooine? Han was a block of carbonite, Fett didn't really need to worry about him escaping. And how did Leia end up on Tatooine? And why wasn't Luke already there if he was supposed to be going there right away? Added up together, all of this interspace travel could have equaled a year.

I think this provides a basis as to showing how some time could have passed. Plus, there's still the fact that Luke is clearly a much more powerful user of The Force than he was in ESB. And since that couldn't happen overnight, some time must have passed. Was it a year? Maybe not. But based on Luke's improvement, it would have to be a substantial amount of time.

johnnycancer

This post has been edited by johnnycancer: 21 August 2006 - 02:19 AM

[MyPantsAreOnFire]

Most of these training issues could be solved if Lucas just thought for an extra second and inserted a line in the crawl saying that Luke "spent much of the last year continuing his training with Yoda," or something along those lines.

I think what Fett what did in between ESB and ROTJ isn't important...they knew he was ending up at Jabba's eventually, so Lando probably inserted himself into the palace pretty early on. From there, however, things get tricky and downright stupid. What the hell was the possible plan? I understand sending the droids to plant the lightsaber, but why send Leia at all? Was she supposed to get captured? That's a pretty stupid assumption...sure, Jabba comes across as a horndog, but he's also seemingly a violent sadist. How did they know he wouldn't just execute her, Han and Chewie on the spot?

I think it makes a little more sense if Lando, Chewie and Leia had their own plan and it got fouled up. If several weeks have passed since Leia gets captured, then that's just Luke showing up since he's heard nothing for an extended period of time. But then why would he have sent the droids? Their plan makes no sense and really ends up looking like there was NO plan.

[diligent_d]

When I was a kid, I never had a problem with their being one year between ESB and ROTJ - but that is because I read the comic and it was a constant search by Lando and Chewie for Han (shaking down Bounty Hunters, talking to crime lords, getting distracted from the search by having to go on last minute missions against the Empire, etc...) - this is because no one knew that Jabba The Hutt was on Tatooine. He was supposedly a ganglord in hiding and could be anywhere in the Galaxy. During the search, Luke too went on missions and gradually got a bit stronger with the force.

But now with this thread, it doesn't make sense that it was a year - since they knew Jabba was on Tatooine from the start. I agree it could possibly take a year to plan a way to break Han from the palace, get Lando inserted, and to plan logistics - but it does seem a stretch. I also agree that Luke could have went to Dagobah to complete his training while Lando and Chewie planned the rescue, but this also doesn't match up with the fact that in the film while Luke is visiting Yoda, he does seem like this is the first he saw of him since ESB, especially with his questions regarding Vader and what not.

Bottom line is that Lucas had planned more movies after ESB, but seemingly lost the drive by the time it came to shoot ROTJ - this is why I think we conveniently have Jabba on Tatooine in probably one of the largest structures on all of Tatooine. Instead of taking an entire film movie to perhaps have them all search for Han while Luke trained on Dagobah, Lucas suddenly had to wrap it up the entire Han/Jabba storyline at the beginning of ROTJ.

This post has been edited by diligent_d: 21 August 2006 - 06:15 PM

[johnnycancer]

I think it makes a little more sense if Lando, Chewie and Leia had their own plan and it got fouled up. If several weeks have passed since Leia gets captured, then that's just Luke showing up since he's heard nothing for an extended period of time. But then why would he have sent the droids? Their plan makes no sense and really ends up looking like there was NO plan.

Well, that does make sense. I was just reading the script for ROTJ, and based on the dialogue between C3PO and R2D2, Lando, Leia, and Chewbacca had their own plan:

C3PO (to R2D2 as they're walking to Jabba's palace): Of course I'm worried. And you should be, too. Lando Calrissian and poor Chewbacca never returned from this awful place.

Oddly enough, Leia still isn't mentioned. But, if Lando and Chewbacca disappeared at the same time, and Leia (dressed as Boushh) ends up with Chewbacca later, then, it seems as if Lando went in first, and then Leia and Chewbacca followed him. Since Luke and the droids didn't know about Leia, that would seem to support the supposition that they hadn't heard from Leia, Lando, and Chewbacca in a while.

But, yeah, it still doesn't explain why Luke sent the droids in ahead of him. Didn't somebody mention something about the droids being sent inside first to plant Luke's lightsaber somewhere? But, why would Luke need to PLANT his lightsaber? Why couldn't he just walk in with it?

Maybe we need to start a different posting thread for figuring out what the actual plan to rescue Han could have been?

EDIT IN RESPONSE TO DILIGENT_D'S POST: I never knew what the plot in the comic books was, so it's interesting to find out that the plot did actually involve searching for Jabba the Hutt. It's just too bad they never make any reference to this search in the movie, or make any reference to the passage of time for that matter. Incidentally, do the comic books give us a better description of what the plan to rescue Han actually was?

johnnycancer

This post has been edited by johnnycancer: 21 August 2006 - 06:25 PM

[diligent_d]

Incidentally, do the comic books give us a better description of what the plan to rescue Han actually was?

Not so much - they were trying just to find him first. Also they were searching Boba Fett as well to try and dig out some information. A couple times they thought they found Han, only to be lead into traps and wild goose chases.

[StarWarsIsUs]

I wish I could get my hands on some of those Dark Horse (wassit?) comics from the earlier Star Wars days.

Anyone have the original comic set from in the late 70's?