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Luke's Training in perspective with PT What is the official time of Luke's training in Degobah?

#16 User is offline   Gerhard Icon

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 09:44 PM

QUOTE (barend @ May 11 2006, 02:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
either way through practice or whatever he had gained much skill between ESB and ROTJ.
but then he had obiwans ghost following him around a bit. so there may have been the odd chime in... who knows, the important thing is, he wasn't just some chump that showed up and rocked the world the way jariten is implying.


ROTJ is when things began to fall apart, I mean I'm sure at the end of Empire there were still plans for more movies, thus implying that Luke training would be expanded, but all of the sudden Kurtz left, Lucas got divorced? (not sure if it was at that time or before Empire) I do know Lucas had an adopted baby in ROTJ so he changed his mind (again) and forced the ending probably to have more time for his kids.

One year is the official time between Empire and Jedi, why couldn't Luke spent that year in Degobah, no need to show anything, just put it there in the opening spine. It would have been more logic than Yoda saying in Empire is training is not finished and then in Jedi saying his training was finished without any training in between.

what about that? a OT lover finding faults in the OT, Jariten will like this one tongue.gif
Still, Jedi is a lot (and I do mean a lot) more enjoyable than any of the "other" modern movies. wink.gif

This post has been edited by Gerhard: 10 May 2006 - 09:48 PM

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#17 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 09:52 PM

at least he can't call us hyprocrits wink.gif
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#18 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 08:01 AM

QUOTE
either way through practice or whatever he had gained much skill between ESB and ROTJ.
but then he had obiwans ghost following him around a bit. so there may have been the odd chime in... who knows, the important thing is, he wasn't just some chump that showed up and rocked the world the way jariten is implying.


I have no problem with whatever happened between ESB and RotJ, just what happens in ESB.
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#19 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 09:16 PM

the lack of a cock rock montague.
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#20 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 05:10 AM

I have a problem with 1 year being the "official" time frame between EMPIRE and JEDI. When Chewie and Lando fly off at the end of EMPIRE, Luke says he'll rendezvous with them on Tatooine. Given the goofiness of the Solo rescue, I don't think it took a year to coordinate it. It has always appeared to me that the heroes went directlt to Jabba's.

Yes, the training in EMPIRE is a problem. It doesn't show any passage of time. It is a weakness in the storytelling and we complained about it at the time.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#21 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 08:20 AM

I have a problem with ROTJ and Luke's training. I really think it should've opened with Luke sitting in Dagobah completing his training and have all that talk, and then move onto Tatooine to save Han.

In ESB, regarding Luke's training, has it been discounted that the hyperdrive was broke and the ship had to go to Bespin on "sublight drives," thereby Han & crew spending significantly more time on the Falcon than three days? I don't see the argument where why this doesn't work....
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#22 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 13 May 2006 - 02:26 AM

QUOTE (CowboyCurtis @ May 12 2006, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In ESB, regarding Luke's training, has it been discounted that the hyperdrive was broke and the ship had to go to Bespin on "sublight drives," thereby Han & crew spending significantly more time on the Falcon than three days? I don't see the argument where why this doesn't work....

The hyperdrive worked at the end of EMPIRE. BUt even if it hadn't, it wasn't docked at Bespin anymore under Imperial surveillance. I dare say the Rebel mechanics would have been able to repair any remaining trouble while Luke was going through rehabilitation. I don't buy the "1 year" notion. If that's official, it's an afterthought to resolve the question of Luke's training.

Shoulda had a montage.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#23 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 13 May 2006 - 09:51 AM

QUOTE (barend @ May 9 2006, 08:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
is there any point where it says in the films that the scene in ROTJ is only the second visit to yoda?


Indirectly when he says to Artoo in ROTJ: "I've got a promise to keep... to an old friend." It can be assumed that Luke is referring to returning to Dagobah to complete his training. Unless Luke had been there between movies but had another promise that hadn't been seen, like owing Yoda $50 because of a bet he lost.

This whole training fiasco could have been solved with two easy fixes: 1.) Don't mention the Tantooine rendezvous in ESB, instead Luke should have mentioned his plans to return to Dagobah. 2.) Get rid of the "promise to keep" line in ROTJ and say something else stupid like, "We're going to visit an old friend."

Of course this still leaves the problem of the 1 YEAR thing that civ2 brought up. Clearly that plan had not taken an entire year to concoct. It seemed more like the planning of one slightly drunken evening.

What were they DOING in that year if they weren't training or planning?
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#24 User is offline   CowboyCurtis Icon

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Posted 13 May 2006 - 09:59 AM

The hyperdrive worked at the end of EMPIRE. BUt even if it hadn't, it wasn't docked at Bespin anymore under Imperial surveillance. I dare say the Rebel mechanics would have been able to repair any remaining trouble while Luke was going through rehabilitation. I don't buy the "1 year" notion. If that's official, it's an afterthought to resolve the question of Luke's training.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought we were talking about the training DURING ESB, not inbetween ESB and ROTJ.

Yeah, I'm not sure how one would square away this problem.

I think the way it should've worked is that Luke finishes up his training in the beginning of ROTJ, and THEN goes to save Han. But, of course, Luke saying, (paraphrasing) "I'll rendezvous with you on Tatooine" makes its sound like he would be there sooner. I could gusher-ize it and say that it was just a reconnaisance mission, they made up their plans to inflitrate the palace, and then Luke goes back to Yoda for training....

Yeah, a year is just to long of a period of time.

It seemed more like the planning of one slightly drunken evening.

LOL!! So true!

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 13 May 2006 - 10:25 AM

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#25 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 13 May 2006 - 01:24 PM

QUOTE (Chefelf @ May 13 2006, 09:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Indirectly when he says to Artoo in ROTJ: "I've got a promise to keep... to an old friend." It can be assumed that Luke is referring to returning to Dagobah to complete his training. Unless Luke had been there between movies but had another promise that hadn't been seen, like owing Yoda $50 because of a bet he lost.

This whole training fiasco could have been solved with two easy fixes: 1.) Don't mention the Tantooine rendezvous in ESB, instead Luke should have mentioned his plans to return to Dagobah. 2.) Get rid of the "promise to keep" line in ROTJ and say something else stupid like, "We're going to visit an old friend."

Of course this still leaves the problem of the 1 YEAR thing that civ2 brought up. Clearly that plan had not taken an entire year to concoct. It seemed more like the planning of one slightly drunken evening.

What were they DOING in that year if they weren't training or planning?

364 heavy drinking evenings? Great post, Chef! smile.gif
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#26 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 13 May 2006 - 11:32 PM

QUOTE
It seemed more like the planning of one slightly drunken evening.


Ha! Thats perfect biggrin.gif

I actually liked that scene less when I learned what the official time gap was. At first I thought they upped and left as soon as possible and it was all very "i'm making this up as I go" Indy Jones type stuff.
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#27 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 09:46 PM

QUOTE (Chefelf @ May 13 2006, 09:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Of course this still leaves the problem of the 1 YEAR thing that civ2 brought up. Clearly that plan had not taken an entire year to concoct. It seemed more like the planning of one slightly drunken evening.

What were they DOING in that year if they weren't training or planning?


ya, after a year of doing nothing. wink.gif

lando didn't become a guard that morning. did he?

Luke: "Here's the deal... I go in force choke, mind trick, shoot and sabre my way through everyone then thaw out han."
Lando: "he's my oldest friend... i should be the one to save him, i've known him longer than you. I'll go in as a guard and infiltrate."
Luke: "eh, alright sure."
-----two weeks later...----
Liea: ""screw this i'm his girlfriend!" i'm going in, i've been waiting for an excuse to wear this Irridonian gardening suit anyway."
chewbacca: "MMRRAAAHAHAH!!!"
Liea: "YEah sure, that makes sense... you can come along."
Luke: "wait, it's too risky... at least let me send the droids in first. That way you'll have a translater there when you try to pass yourself of as another species."
Liea: "What?"
Luke: Liea, look... saying 'yoto e yoto' over and over is not speaking another language... it was funny when you did at the Mos Eisley cantina last thursday... but this is serious."
----two weeks later...----
Luke: "fine.... all in favor of going with the original plan" (holds hand up while looking around the empty common room in the millenium falcon) Alright then!"

This post has been edited by barend: 14 May 2006 - 09:52 PM

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#28 User is offline   MyPantsAreOnFire Icon

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Posted 15 May 2006 - 07:23 PM

It's frustrating how much more sense it makes to have Luke and Yoda's scene at the begninng of ROTJ as opposed to dropped right in the middle, indeed setting it up so it looks like Luke had a few hours of training with Obi-Wan and maybe a few days with Yoda. That is indeed a HUGE OT flaw, though really only created by the scene and dialogue in ROTJ. If it had appeared Luke had been back there for a year or so, alright, now I'm ready to buy he IS a Jedi and can kick some ass if needed. Of course, Lucas had to put that scene in the middle since he needed to have Alec Guinness sit on a freakin' log and stop the movie dead while he explains Lucas out of the huge hole he's dug for his films. The seeds of the filmmaking failures of the PT are very obviously sown in ROTJ...and it stinks!
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#29 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 12:25 AM

QUOTE (MyPantsAreOnFire @ May 15 2006, 07:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Lucas had to put that scene in the middle since he needed to have Alec Guinness sit on a freakin' log and stop the movie dead while he explains Lucas out of the huge hole he's dug for his films. The seeds of the filmmaking failures of the PT are very obviously sown in ROTJ...and it stinks!
laugh.gif No problems here. It's not that ESB is best of six films, just of two.
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#30 User is offline   georgelucas4greedo Icon

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 01:08 PM

Well if you read Shadows of the Empire, you would know that Luke trains on his own at some kind of stupid circus (another dumb correlation between our world and SW a la TPM's "thats gotta hurt!"). The rebels were busy getting the DS2 plans so they had no time to plan Han's rescue, not to mention that they were so beaten up after ESB that the morale was so low.
It seems like everyone is over the nitpicking. Too bad.
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