[Renegade]

Who else do you propose regimes be run by besides the state?

Do you know what a state run economy means?....

And no, Egypt and Saudi Arabia, and moreover Iraq, fall under none of the two categories toy mention, though all of their governments are indeed state run, as opposed to being, say, run by pineapples.

Oh ya your right, Egypt/Saudi Arabia aren't at all governed by Islam and again, do you know what a state run economy means...?

You claim that Iraq could not win the wars against Kuwait and Iran? But had there not been imperialist interference? What then? Iraq would at the very least have taken Kuwait, and the Zionist Entity would have been utterly destroyed, as is just! You blame the weak for the failings of their attempts to throw off imperialim's yokes! If Iraq had won the wars with Iran and Kuwait Saddam could have continued on against Egypt and Saudi Arabia, uniting the Arab world. The people of many Arab nations had great respect for him and he may have been the Bolivar of the middle east. I do not maintain such delusions, believe me, but that was what the imperialists fear, and that is why no middle east nation can take too much power.

1) I was incorrect in jumbling Kuwait, with countries Iraq would of lost too, they would of been able to maintain Kuwait.
2) No they wouldn't of taken out Iran if it wasn't for Imperialistic intervention. We've already been through this, Iraq was getting help from America and other countries as the war was slipping out of their hands. If anything, Iraq only maintained itself BECAUSE of world wide help to prevent Iran from owning it.
3)Oh ya... cause Israel would of been dominated by Iraq after they took Kuwait... lol. Iraq couldn't do fuck all against Israel and the fact that you even make such a claim just disregards any common sense about the militaries of each at the time and their capabilities to make offensive attacks on one another.
4) No, most arabs would not of wanted to be taken over by Saddam and if he did try to ease his way into Saudia Arabia, other Arab countries and non arab would of come to prevent it, ie. Iran.
5) Tis true that America doesn't want a major Mid East country to take over the region though this is both a selfish desire of the Western countries, but also not necessarily a bad thing considering a mid eastern "empire" would mean a country just taking over countries that are quite different and shouldn't be one in the first place.

Then deny that the South Vietnamese government belonged to the imperialists. I defy you to do so.

I don't really know what ur talking about... assuming S. Vietnam was a "puppet" to imperialism, it was still being invaded by another imperialist... eitherway S Vietnam didn't want to be under North. The only thing that the Vietnam war showed was, that S Vietnamese simply didn't want to fight the war AS bad as America thought it would.

As for the Party of Allah,

My point was that Hezbollah is itself a party and group based on the same ideas that America does to others. It is trying to force ITS values upon other countries just like an "imperialist" country would. And sure they build schools/hospitals, but so did Nazi Germany. Big whoop.

I'm all for minority rights, but all in good time, and NOT while a terible force of impeialist and zionists faces down the entire world with their terrorism and threats.

Zionists have no effect on Iran/Iraq/Saudia Arabia/Egypt/Jordan/etc etc.... the fact that you buy into that bullshit shows your lack of knowledge of the intent of Israel, the strength of Israel, their purpose, other countries sovereignty etc etc.

[ion eon]

Allah is not even a real God. Some drunk guy that called himself Mohammed made up this book called the Koran and put in a bunch of ficticious crap and called the real God Allah and slammed Jesus and told Muslims to kill any non-Muslims and that....pisses the hell out of me

[Renegade]

Cuba for instance granted all minorities decent rights even while facing an imperialist threat, but I know you despise them anyways because they defy your agenda of world domination on the part of the US.

Not really.. I've never even said once that Cuba should be American control or that Castro was necessarily worse than any other leader they may have. You keep saying that I say that but i never have. All I've MERELY said was Cuba under Castro ISNT a good country to live in, and that Castro doesn't deserve to be called his excellency. Just because you think me questioning your godlike praise of him is treason doesn't mean I actually think Cuba should in anyway be invaded/effected/intervened by America..

[Slade]

Allah is not even a real God.  Some drunk guy that called himself Mohammed made up this book called the Koran and put in a bunch of ficticious crap and called the real God Allah and slammed Jesus and told Muslims to kill any non-Muslims and that....pisses the hell out of me

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow. That is the single most offensive statement I've heard all day, and I got to read what Hannibal wrote. Your ignorance is so appaling that I am postively astounded.

Firstly, what gives you any right as a human to say who is and who isn't a real god? The Koran is just as valid as any other text dubbed religious, and while I haven't read it, I've talked to people who have, and it's not a terrorism and intolerance handbook.

Secondly, how would you feel if I said Jesus was just some schmuck who knew some magic tricks to dupe a stupid populous and is responsible for religious oppression and has contributed to the development of an institution that seeks to reduce progress in the realms of human rights and science to a crawl where it doesn't retard it? I'm sure you'd be more than a little upset with me. Now translate how you'd feel if I insulted your messiah and imagine that same feeling in someone to whom you've just said that Muhammed was a drunkard to.

Thirdly: Maybe you're all worshiping the same thing, and he's called something different due to language differences?

Fnordy, people... At least make an attempt to put forth something valid and slightly informed before you go typing away.

Edit: JM, you're being naive if you think that you can wait out for a culture to stop its barbaric practices. Women and minorities still would have no right to vote if it weren't for people standing up to authority and saying "We're not taking your bullshit anymore." Power is never given willingly. The Arabic world will continue to be backward until someone takes active steps to change it.

This post has been edited by Slade: 01 November 2005 - 07:45 PM

[Otal Nimrodi]

Okay, I hate to be repeat what Slade said, but...

Allah is not even a real God.  Some drunk guy that called himself Mohammed made up this book called the Koran and put in a bunch of ficticious crap and called the real God Allah and slammed Jesus and told Muslims to kill any non-Muslims and that....pisses the hell out of me

Let's take this apart bit by bit, shall we?

Allah is not even a real god

Okay, how do you know? Did you walk up to Allah and say "Are you a real god?" and He said no? Are you a theological theorist? You know, you never did say what type of theorist...

Some drunk guy that called himself Mohammed made up this book called the Koran and put in a bunch of ficticious crap

Okay, have you ever read the Koran, have you ever even seen the Koran, I'm no expert, but from what I have heard, it's a new new testament.

and called the real God Allah

Yeah, how dare he SPEAK HIS OWN LANGUAGE?!

What would Einstein say?

Ion Eon is a fluffy kitten

Well, can't argue with that.

and slammed Jesus

What the hell is this even supposed to mean?

And it's Jesus going for the Crucifix bomb and... Oh my god, Muhammed slammed Jesus! Muhammed slammed Jesus! This is a real slobbernocker!

Well, I assure you none was more surprised than I by RAW last night.

  and told Muslims to kill any non-Muslims

Not at all like what Moses did... Than again, maybe you think he slammed Jesus too.

and that....pisses the hell out of me

And what he said pisses the hell out of me.

Edit: Hey, no flaming, please. Two wrongs just make God kill kittens. And then only the kitten haters win. Attack the argument, not the person making it.
-Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator

This post has been edited by Slade: 01 November 2005 - 08:59 PM

[Jordan]

Why can't he say allah is a fake god?

By being a christian that is what you're saying. By being a muslim, you're saying "jesus is fake an allah is real".

Muslims- Think other people are infidels and evil

Christians- THink all people are prone to evil and if you're not a follower then you're lost.

Both of the above agree that if you don't subscribe, you'll burn in hell

Atheists- Think the above are mental.

In the end none of us actually like one another. And this tolerance thing is just poo spat out by far left wing atheists and people with no say, kinda like "I support the troops" but "I support and respect whatever god you love, man". They don't like the idea of people believing in something so much that they see everything else as a lie. What you don't understand is that they are happy like this, they don't want to bow to your wishes and 'respect' another religion. It's like you people respecting the bush party if you're from the left. You don't like him, he is a jerk, end of story. This is how religious folks see other Gods.

So don't say he can't say allah is a motherfucker. He can, he did, and he's happy.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 02 November 2005 - 02:36 AM

[Slade]

Precisely because he finds joy in intolerance is why I can say that he shouldn't. I mean, he can, but it just makes anyone with any sort of common sense or knowledge of actual religious teachings rather offended.

I don't like people being so caught up in their religious safety blanket that they willingly wear horse blinders and decide that everything that they think is 100% true and undisputable.

And there's a big difference between disagreeing with someone and insulting someone else's beliefs.

Ex:
Disagreeing with someone: "I find your blatent bigotry morally repulsive to me because humanity should not actively look for reasons to hate its members."

Insulting someone's beliefs: "You're a complete asshole and a disgrace to those who follow any faith, and to progress and humanity in general."

Do you see my point? But if you're happy to hate people who think differently (or worse, because of it), then I feel quite sorry for you.

For the record: I respect true conservatives even though I disagree with them, at least until they start acting in opposition to my value system and become greedy power hungry politicians. (I don't like liberals who do that either.) I dislike Bush and his administration because it is openly fascist. And I dislike any form of religion that practices intolerance and hate too.

And your "Well, Muslims do it too!" argument is total bullshit until you back it up with passages promoting intolerance toward other paths to enlightenment, and even then, you still lose because two wrongs don't make a right.

This post has been edited by Slade: 02 November 2005 - 03:14 AM

[J m HofMarN]

The fact that Mid East has moved MORE to the right in the past 50 years is something to show that its really not becoming more progressive as time has gone by.

Irrelevent. The mideast cannot decide in what direction their governments go because many of them are US backed dictatorships.

Do you know what a state run economy means?....

It's still out of context and more over redundant. You were talking about governments and instead only mentioned a religion and 1 economic system, which is socialism, or state run economy. Any kind of government from dictatorship to democracy to fascism can be islamic or socialist and pointing out that the governments are based upon Islamic law is once again redundant. I suppose you would have them based on Christian law?

As for the Iran question remember that it was the US who built up Iran while the Shah was in power and bolstered his rule. Without US backing of Iran and building up of its military before the revolution it is possible Iraq would have won.

You're correct on the point that the Zionist Entity could pretty much tear apart the Islamic world. This is because of imperialist backing. If the ZE had no backing from the US, it simply would not have ever existed for more than a day or two.

Saddam is a better choice than the governments of Egypt or Saudi Arabia because he was an Arab and not beholden to imperialism. Egypt and Saudi Arabia are both dictatorships where torture is common place and islamic extremism is rampant, and women have few rights. Iraq was indeed a dictatorship where torture was common, but it was an Arab dictatorship, and a secular one at that.

Your fifth point I give to you, however you must agree that that is what it would take to cleanse the area of imperialist involvement. The thing holding back progress is not religion or the Arab race, it is imperialism. This poison must be expunged somehow.

eitherway S Vietnam didn't want to be under North.

There originally was no North and South Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh, that great liberator, freed ALL of Vietnam from the imperialist French. However Ho was a communist. The US CREATED South Vietnam by whining and threatening. The South Vietnamese wanted to be united with their brothers, that is why the right side won the Vietnam war.

And yes, Hizballah may be funded and aided by another Arab country, but at least they are Arabs and not Zionists or Imperialists. Who would you rather be ruled by, your brothers or people from overseas who support your great enemy (The Zionist Entity)

Zionists have no effect on Iran/Iraq/Saudia Arabia/Egypt/Jordan/etc etc.... the fact that you buy into that bullshit shows your lack of knowledge of the intent of Israel, the strength of Israel, their purpose, other countries sovereignty etc etc.

The intent of the Zionists is to steal as much as they can from Arabs, or "Infidels" as they surely call them. And all the countries you named may not be in direct overt danger from the Zionists, but they are clearly in danger from the imperialists. Look at what happened in Iraq, where a few treacherous cowards sold out the country and spread false information to justify an invasion of their own homeland by a foreign power.

Just because you think me questioning your godlike praise of him is treason doesn't mean I actually think Cuba should in anyway be invaded/effected/intervened by America..

So then you are against the blockade, the invasion, the assassination attempts, the blowing up of the Cuban olympic fencing team, and other crimes organized by the imperislists? Then we are in agreement on that, and I'll certainly let it rest. I'm going to make this post to you and address the ignorance being spewed in a second and seperate post, since no matter how much I disagree with you your posts are at least based on something other than nonsense and bigotry and dont deserve to be mentioned in the same post as the aforementioned.

[J m HofMarN]

Allah is not even a real God. Some drunk guy that called himself Mohammed made up this book called the Koran and put in a bunch of ficticious crap and called the real God Allah and slammed Jesus and told Muslims to kill any non-Muslims and that....pisses the hell out of me

Allah is simply the Christian God with a different name.
Mohammed did not drink, it is considered Halal.
Mohammed was visited by the angels Michael and Gabriel, who dictated the Quran to him.
The Quran in no way "slams" nor suplexes nor delivers a haymaker to Jesus. If you would put down the pork rinds and turn off Fox 5 and go to a place called a library you could find a copy of the Holy Quran. In this copy of the Holy Quran you could find the following passage:

Behold! the angels said: "O Mary, Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him; his name will be the Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.
(al-Qur'an 3:45)

The Muslims hold Jesus, Noah, Isaiah, Abraham, and various others as prophets. If you took the time to look into the religion you choose to condemn you would know this and not so consistently have the "hell pissed out of you" whatever that means.

By being a christian that is what you're saying. By being a muslim, you're saying "jesus is fake an allah is real".

Please see above. Christians are infact the ones who claim that Mohammed and Allah are fake, not the other way around.

Muslims- Think other people are infidels and evil

Quote some Islamic scripture that bears that out Jordan. I can quote Christian scripture that says the same thing though. Do you recall when I was making a list of the things your buddy "Loonie" Leviticus said were worthy of death? Not observing the Christian Sabbath was one of them and there were more of the same sort.

And this tolerance thing is just poo spat out by far left wing atheists and people with no say

Oh of course, because the Christian religion is already so deliciously tolerant of other cultures, other religions, and other ways of looking at their own religion. Why, the person who came up with this tolerance nonsense aught to be burned at the stake along with those damned protestants and Hugenauts and Calvinists.

They don't like the idea of people believing in something so much that they see everything else as a lie.

So tolerance is born of atheism ay? And you consider this to be an argument FOR religion? Dude, consider what you're writing before you write it. If atheism is the mother of tolerance than I say Viva La Ateismo!

Comparing the difference between Mohammed and Jesus to the difference between, say, His Excellency and George Bush is absolute nonsense. There is a very base similarity (which is what you're grasping at, no doubt) the similiarity being that both have similar professions.

However you can actually point out severe and obvious differences between Bush's imperialist terrorism and His Excellency's socialist democracy. Jesus and Mohammed are prophets in the same religion and basically say the same thing. So a more apt comparison would be for a democrat to say "I love John Kerry, but I don't believe in the existence of Al Gore."

[Otal Nimrodi]

Edit: Hey, no flaming, please. Two wrongs just make God kill kittens. And then only the kitten haters win. Attack the argument, not the person making it.
-Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator

alright, sorry, was very very angry.

[ion eon]

I apologize for the rudeness I just don't like people comparing allah to God. They are not the same person. I respect their right o worship whoever they want but do NOT call my God and theirs the same.

[Slade]

Technically, neither are people, they are utterly incomprehensible ubiquitous deities. So unless the principles that people are supposed to follow that are in the parables and rhetoric and dogma (not the dogma itself) are sharply different, I don't know how you can make a certainty that you're not worshiping the same God who's message has been syphoned through different people at different times. Either way, it's not an excuse to not get along.

JM: Firstly, the Arabs and the Israelis are both equally guilty at hating one another, and you're being unfairly biased in that regard.

Second, removing imperialism won't solve the fact that the culture is still in the middle ages. Like I said, it's going to take active forces attempting to change the beliefs of the people in order to have any impact at all. Sadly, imperialism doesn't do a damned bit of good in that regard. It's not just some oppressive veil of influence hiding a modern state. (Modern in the sense of human rights, I mean, not in the government sense.)

[civilian_number_two]

I agree with Ion Eon. Allah is not a real God. Also, Jesus did not perform the miracles he's credited with, especially the one with Lazarus or raising himself back from the dead.

It's all bullshit.

[J m HofMarN]

But if Disney's taught me anything it's that all Allah needs is a jive talkin' crow or possibly a cricket and he'll be a real god.

Ion Eon: God and Allah ARE the same idea, just worshipped in different languages. Different cultures have different names and practices. However if you look at the scripture and compare it Christianity and Islam are the two most compatible religions in the world today. Judaism has the same god as well, but they don't accept either Jesus or Muhammed as prophets. And if the gods are different, how do you explain Michael and Gabriel (who as I'm sure you know from your vast academic studies are among the 7 angels who stand before The Throne and are among the 4 angels who make an appearance in the bible) coming to visit him? Think about it. Your problem with Islam is not that its message or content are incompatible, it's that you are poorly read and the people who follow Islam are a different color than you.

Slade: Death To Israel!

On a sub note, I didnt say that imperialism was solely responsible for the lack of progress, but if imperialism were removed then the countries could go on fighting amongst themselves and trying out their own new ideas. Perhaps a protestant sect of Islam could form and slowly but surely whittle down the clerics power in Islamic regimes. The basic thing is we cant very well criticize them as long as their destinies are not their own.

[ion eon]

hey lay off me all right. I don't like to compare my God with theirs. And the reason why they are similar is because they took some Christian scripture and used it in their own Koran.

This post has been edited by ion eon: 02 November 2005 - 04:26 PM