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Anakins New Powers Did He learn it?

#1 User is offline   Azrael23 Icon

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 01:19 AM

I'm a newbie so pardon me if this subject has been dealt with, but its something I have been pondering since viewing ROTS.

What exactly was Anakins new power that he was going to use to keep Padme from dying? Or was this just a plot device to give Anakin a reason for turning to the darkside?

Did Palpatine ever get around to teaching Anakin this new power? Had he learned this power I suspect he could have used it to keep himself alive in ROTJ. If this power involved manipulating the midiclorians which is what helps someone tap into the force how could it work on Padme since she is not a force adept? Anyone got any info concerning this?
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#2 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 01:40 AM

Hey Azrael23, and Welcome to the forums.

No, you're right. He was duped.
And he wouldn't be the last.
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#3 User is offline   Azrael23 Icon

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 12:49 PM

Thanks Despondent! Okay I figured as much. I'm very surprise he didn't commit suicide over everything he did by a lie he believed.





QUOTE (Despondent @ Oct 9 2005, 02:40 AM)
Hey Azrael23, and Welcome to the forums.

No, you're right. He was duped.
And he wouldn't be the last.

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#4 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 01:42 PM

The worst part of it is that Palpatine promises all this, then when Anakin finally joins him Palpatine then says, "Only together can we figure out how to do this and save Padme."

Anakin does not have the normal reaction which should be, "What the frig! I just killed Mace Windu, I thought you knew how to do this already!"
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#5 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 02:10 PM

That was my first reaction to this scene too. I just refuse to believe that anyone, anyone could be so stupid.
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#6 User is offline   EwokHunter Icon

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 02:29 PM

I think It was only to make the plot of how Anakin goes to the Darkside.
Crappy Story
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#7 User is offline   LiocModnar Icon

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 03:47 PM

I've got to agree with ChefElf. That scene made no sense to me whatsoever. Even if we assume Anakin was ohsoinlove with Padmé that he'd do anything to save her, his infamous rage should have allowed him to kill Palpatine easily enough. Alas, that would have been a flaming continuity error.
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#8 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 07:47 PM

QUOTE (Chefelf @ Oct 9 2005, 01:42 PM)
The worst part of it is that Palpatine promises all this, then when Anakin finally joins him Palpatine then says, "Only together can we figure out how to do this and save Padme."

Anakin does not have the normal reaction which should be, "What the frig!  I just killed Mace Windu, I thought you knew how to do this already!"


yeah, that really irked me too...

after that, the dialogue should have continued like this:

anikan: "the deal was, that once i took your side and killed mace, you'd teach me how do the necromancer thing!"
Palpatine: "I am altering the deal, prey that i do not alter it further."
Anikan: "This deal keeps getting worse by the minute!"

at least then there'd be some lead in and consistancy and character development...
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#9 User is offline   DarthTherion Icon

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 12:10 AM

Anakin's turn is clearly the weak point of Episode III. However, that being said, I think it's only fair to consider his decision in light of his state of mind, not the audience's.

"Desperate" sums up his character pretty well at this point -- he's desperate to believe that there is any hope for saving his beloved. Palpatine, you will recall, is a trusted friend; it seems natural that Anakin would believe him under dire circumstances. By the end of the film, Anakin's anger is directed at himself, not at Palpatine.

Yeah, I know, Palpatine is the most transparent villain ever. It's called dramatic irony. The audience can see things that the characters can't.
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#10 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 12:56 AM

i think the real problem is really anikans switching schedule.

friday
3:00pm bad guy embracing evil.
3:15pm regret, remorse, sobbing.
3:30pm bad guy embracing evil.
3:45pm regret, remorse, sobbing.
4:00pm afternoon tea with padme.
4:15pm bad guy embracing evil.
4:30pm regret, remorse, sobbing.
etc.

seriously...

he kills mace, then sobs 'what have i done' (sounded more like 'wab hab na mun').
chokes padme, with the "if you ain wiv me yir again me' speech.
then becomes VAder ans is all like 'where's padme' in his best sexual-harasment-panda tone...

it's fucking painful to watch!
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#11 User is offline   DarthTherion Icon

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 02:05 AM

QUOTE (barend @ Oct 12 2005, 01:56 AM)
he kills mace, then sobs 'what have i done' (sounded more like 'wab hab na mun').
chokes padme, with the "if you ain wiv me yir again me' speech.
then becomes VAder ans is all like 'where's padme' in his best sexual-harasment-panda tone...

it's fucking painful to watch!


But isn't that the point? Anakin is essentially a "good man." He doesn't intend for these horrible things to happen, but they're natural consequences of the selfish choices he makes in moments of passion-driven weakness.

"I'm not angry. I'm just passionate...like all us Greeks."
--Homer Simpson
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#12 User is offline   Azrael23 Icon

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 11:53 AM

QUOTE (barend @ Oct 12 2005, 01:56 AM)
i think the real problem is really anikans switching schedule.

friday
3:00pm bad guy embracing evil.
3:15pm regret, remorse, sobbing.
3:30pm bad guy embracing evil.
3:45pm regret, remorse, sobbing.
4:00pm afternoon tea with padme.
4:15pm bad guy embracing evil.
4:30pm regret, remorse, sobbing.
etc.

seriously...

he kills mace, then sobs 'what have i done' (sounded more like 'wab hab na mun').
chokes padme, with the "if you ain wiv me yir again me' speech.
then becomes VAder ans is all like 'where's padme' in his best sexual-harasment-panda tone...

it's fucking painful to watch!


I agree!

But his whole transition to the darkside really makes no sense or is rather weak. Lucas did a terrible job with Anakins whole character, its like he has unstable alliances with everyone he is suppose to be loyal too. Its rather easy for Anakin to start off good and noble, but gradually be corrupted into a wrong path, but that was not the case in the PT. Not only is he very easy to manipulate, he is not loyal to ANYONE, not to Padme, not to the Jedi Order or even his new Emperor and Master. He has mood swings throughout the trilogy and there is never no real indication that he was truly good.

The darkside is suppose to be a path, a journey, Anakins was not seduced as the OT laid out, he was pretty much tricked into it, not only that but it took about 2-3 scenes for Anakin to be converted, that is a drastic change in a character in such a short span of time.

If Anakin can be tricked and manipulated that easy then why on earth would he even qualify as a Sith Lord.

This post has been edited by Azrael23: 12 October 2005 - 11:54 AM

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#13 User is offline   DarthTherion Icon

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 08:06 PM

QUOTE (Azrael23 @ Oct 12 2005, 12:53 PM)
Not only is he very easy to manipulate, he is not loyal to ANYONE, not to Padme, not to the Jedi Order or even his new Emperor and Master. He has mood swings throughout the trilogy and there is never no real indication that he was truly good.


I think this goes back to the question of dramatic irony -- the *audience* is aware of his perfidy, but is Anakin? He thinks he is being quite loyal:

He believes he is loyal to Padme, since all of his murderous actions are done for her. He is blind to his selfish motivation, his possessive love that explodes into a violent rage when he thinks she has betrayed him.

He believes he is loyal to the Republic, defending it against the Jedi Order that had attempted to subvert it, undermine its democracy, and assassinate its elected leader. Again, he is blind to his own selfish lust for power and order.

In a twisted way, Anakin even believes he is acting in accordance with the *true* spirit of the Jedi Order -- he justifies his marriage by expanding the meaning of "compassion," he refuses to spy on his mentor Palpatine, he fights to defend the Republic against the a coup organized by the Jedi Order, which he considers to have fallen away from its true spirit.

From his point of view, he's very consistent and very loyal -- and yet, you're right in saying that it doesn't come off that way. It's not supposed to. We're supposed to see the situation more objectively than Anakin can. This is where the tragedy comes in and where the role of Anakin as a "good man" can be seen...his intentions are all good. He wants to save the life of the woman he loves, preserve democracy, stand for noble principles, and eliminate threats to the galaxy.

QUOTE (Azrael23 @ Oct 12 2005, 12:53 PM)
The darkside is suppose to be a path, a journey, Anakins was not seduced as the OT laid out, he was pretty much tricked into it, not only that but it took about 2-3 scenes for Anakin to be converted, that is a drastic change in a character in such a short span of time.

If Anakin can be tricked and manipulated that easy then why on earth would he even qualify as a Sith Lord.


Anakin's conversion has its beginnings in TPM, actually. It starts with the apparently innocent line, "I don't want things to change." Consider that line in light of the events of ROTS. Furthermore, compare this to Yoda's wisdom: "Train yourself to let go of that which you fear to lose."

Anakin's fall has its root in his inability to let go of anything. He is stubborn in his efforts to preserve the world around him and in his attempts to do the right thing. TPM lays the groundwork for this attitude and AOTC furthers it by stressing his mental attachment to the two females in his life as he frantically tries to maintain the status quo. Thrown into the mix is his guilt, fear, doubt, and pride, which have also been developing gradually.

Is Anakin manipulated? Indeed he is. Palpatine exploits the boy's character flaws in ROTS. Does this mean that he doesn't qualify as a Sith Lord? Far from it. One of the better aspects of ROTJ, most people will admit, is the way in which Vader is quickly made into a sympathetic character -- one gets the sense that he is an unwilling vassal of Palpatine, someone who is unhappy in his subservient role yet compelled to serve because of the shackles of the dark side of the force. One gets the sense that Vader's decision to turn to the dark side was made without a full understanding of the consequences. That was a cool thing ROTJ did -- it made you feel sorry for this big, bad villain because you realize that he's just a pawn, a dupe, a flunky.

Now we have the backstory that explains why he is so.
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#14 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 08:36 PM

anikan is all over the shop, but everyone trusts him.

he's flamboyantly evil, and denies nothing... but everyone loves annie all the same...

his path down the dark side was all over the place!

to lure him in, it should have been slow an almost unnoticable.

to some brat with a temper who agonises over everybad call then complains that no one respects him.
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#15 User is offline   Azrael23 Icon

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 11:50 AM

QUOTE (barend @ Oct 12 2005, 09:36 PM)
anikan is all over the shop, but everyone trusts him.

he's flamboyantly evil, and denies nothing... but everyone loves annie all the same...

his path down the dark side was all over the place!

to lure him in, it should have been slow an almost unnoticable.

to some brat with a temper who agonises over everybad call then complains that no one respects him.




Exactly. Everything Lucas tried to convey to the audience about Anakin pretty much blew up in his face. In TPM he tried to give Anakins character innocence to make you feel sorry for him. IN AOTC Lucas tried to make us believe that Anakin and Padme are really in love and in ROTS make us believe that Anakins reason for turning to the darkside was because of a noble reason....All of these things failed.

I agree with some of the points Darth Therion made, but the story should have been made with more simplicity that showed a more gradual change. I viewed the prequels starting off with Anakin as a young adult who not only knew how to fix ships and was a top notch pilot, but also a smuggler who wanted out. Then Anakin becomes a combat harden Jedi that is more brutal in his war methods and is expelled from the order because of that, after palpatine starts to instruct him in the DS, Anakin notices that his control in the force increases and he becomes more powerful and wants more, and thus is gradually corrupted.

Instead he whines about everything! Like I stated before his transition make no sense for these obvious reasons. (1)He really has no reason to hate the Jedi Order enough to make him want to exterminate them all. (2) One minute he goes from turning Palpatine in to the authorities to becoming his apprentice. (3)He talks about wanting to give Palpatine a fair trial, yet prior to that he beheaded a defenseless Dooku with no trial in mind.(4) Wants to be a Jedi Master, yet he himself can be so easily manipulated and swayed. (5) Goes from thanking Obi-Wan for teaching him, the next time they see each other Anakin is hell bent on killing him. (6) Has a problems killing Sith lords, but will not hesitate killing his fellow Jedi and Jedi children.

All of these problem is from one movie! Had he actually had a real reason behind all of this and this spanded from Episode 1-3 then okay, but that is a drastic change for one character in one movie.

This post has been edited by Azrael23: 13 October 2005 - 11:54 AM

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