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Anakins New Powers Did He learn it?

#16 User is offline   Revan-47 Icon

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 12:06 PM

my opposition to these are as follows:

1)He was truly convinced that the jedi order became corrupt. Palpy was his best friend, of course he would believe him.

2)Yes he turned palpy in, expecting he'd be allowed to come with mace and talk things out. THey explained his emotions in the scene where he was staring at padme from across corruscant. this scene is where he painfully decided that he was willing to do anything to save padme, and that includes letting palpating live. this was hard for him, because he went against his order. but thats why he was crying in deep emotional ways.

3)Dooku was his enemy. Dooku killed many jedi. Dooku cut off his arm.
Palpatine was his best friend.ITs just like how you would kill the guy that killed your daughter right away, but if your son killed somebody, you would want to give him a fair trial.

4)That is why mace and the council decided not to let him become a master. this is why mace wouldnt let him come along to kill palpatine. it is also why he turns to the darkside. Palpatine brainwashed him. children think that they can handle their own lives, but you dont see parents letting them take over the parent role.

5)all anakin saw was his own side. and his own side was the jedi are corrupt, palpy is going to help me save my wife. obi-wan has been holding me back and it seems like he doesnt support me. i have to kill him in order to save padme. friends let women come between then all the time.

6)once again the brainwashed part. also we have seen that when he gets mad over someone close to him dying, he tends to kill whole groups of people.
"Life is too important to be taken seriously."
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#17 User is offline   Zatoichi Icon

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 03:39 PM

Yeah, but he never even seems to be friends with Obi-wan, or any of the Jedi for that matter. I mean, they saved him from a life of slavery for crying out loud! They don't seem to be too emotional towards each other, ever (except for Qui-gon, because Liam Neeson kicks ass). They all seemed like a bunch of stuck up, snobby, emotionless, know-it-alls. It could be said that Anakin wanted no more to do with Obi-wan other than being his apprentice. It might've started out like this:

Anakin: (To some random person that bumped into him) You wanna go Motherf'er! I'm a Jedi apprentice and would soooo wreck you.
Obi-wan: Anakin that is no way to behave towards other people.
Anakin: Screw you Obi-wan you're always holding me back!
Obi-wan: You wanna say that to me again you little snot-nosed punk. I told Qui-gon you were useless, but nooo. He is the one a legend speaks of. Why does the Force hate me so much? After I'm done with him if anyone asks, Yoda trained me, and it was his decision.

years later

Anakin: (to Padme) Obi-wan's always holding me back.

Anyways, many people make good validating points about the PT, but at the end of the day it was badly done.
Apparently writing about JM here is his secret weakness. Muwahaha!!!! Now I have leverage over him and am another step closer towards my goal of world domination.

"And the Evil that was vanquished shall rise anew. Wrapped in the guise of man shall he walk amongst the innocent and Terror shall consume they that dwell upon the Earth. The skies will rain fire. The seas shall become as blood. The righteous shall fall before the wicked! And all creation shall tremble before the burning standards of Hell!" - Mephisto

Kurgan X showed me this web comic done with Legos. It pokes fun at all six Star Wars films and I found it to be extremely entertaining.
<a href="http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html" target="_blank">http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html</a>
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#18 User is offline   DarthTherion Icon

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 03:51 PM

Revan did a nice job replying to Azrael's points -- it all returns to the issue of perspective. Anakin thinks he is being very consistent; he is blind to the character flaws and inconsistencies of behavior that are obvious to the audience. The story is designed like that intentionally.

QUOTE (Azrael23 @ Oct 13 2005, 12:50 PM)
I agree with some of the points Darth Therion made, but the story should have been made with more simplicity that showed a more gradual change.  I viewed the prequels starting off with Anakin as a young adult who not only knew how to fix ships and was a top notch pilot, but also a smuggler who wanted out.  Then Anakin becomes a combat harden Jedi that is more brutal in his war methods and is expelled from the order because of that,  after palpatine starts to instruct him in the DS, Anakin notices that his control in the force increases and he becomes more powerful and wants more, and thus is gradually corrupted.


Lucas didn't want to tell the story of a "combat hardened Jedi" who becomes "brutal in his war methods." I personally think there's not much room for development with a plot like that. Lucas chose the route in which he shows Anakin falling because of good intentions...the best of intentions, actually: love, the desire to save a loved one. Isn't that a much more compelling idea than a man who simply wants more and more power?

Keep in mind that ROTJ gives us a strong sense of Vader as a pawn, an unwilling vassal, a good but misled man who regretted a terrible choice he had made.
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#19 User is offline   Azrael23 Icon

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 03:52 PM

QUOTE (Revan-47 @ Oct 13 2005, 01:06 PM)
my opposition to these are as follows:

1)He was truly convinced that the jedi order became corrupt. Palpy was his best friend, of course he would believe him.

2)Yes he turned palpy in, expecting he'd be allowed to come with mace and talk things out. THey explained his emotions in the scene where he was staring at padme from across corruscant. this scene is where he painfully decided that he was willing to do anything to save padme, and that includes letting palpating live. this was hard for him, because he went against his order. but thats why he was crying in deep emotional ways.

3)Dooku was his enemy. Dooku killed many jedi. Dooku cut off his arm.
  Palpatine was his best friend.ITs just like how you would kill the guy that killed your daughter right away, but if your son killed somebody, you would want to give him a fair trial.

4)That is why mace and the council decided not to let him become a master. this is why mace wouldnt let him come along to kill palpatine. it is also why he turns to the darkside. Palpatine brainwashed him. children think that they can handle their own lives, but you dont see parents letting them take over the parent role.

5)all anakin saw was his own side. and his own side was the jedi are corrupt, palpy is going to help me save my wife. obi-wan has been holding me back and it seems like he doesnt support me. i have to kill him in order to save padme. friends let women come between then all the time.

6)once again the brainwashed part. also we have seen that when he gets mad over someone close to him dying, he tends to kill whole groups of people.
[B]




My opposition to the following:

1. How exactly did he come to the conclusion that the Jedi were corrupt? Rather than go by actual proof, or he just took Palpatines word by face value because they were friends. What about Obi-Wan who actually trained him for over 10 years? After that I would expect Anakin to open moreso to him than Palpatine.
Rather than massacre the whole order and think every single jedi is a traitor I'm sure there was a way to filter out the Jedi true intentions.

2. So one minute he wants to kill Palpatine who has been basically decieving him this entire time and who has masterminded everything, even the war, then he turns him in to the council, afterwards he helps Palpatine kill Mace then pledges himself to Palpatine, yeah sure that can all work properly if this all doesn't take within 20 minutes.

3. That doesn't matter. Anakin still murders Dooku without a fair trial. When Mace is about to kill Sidious who is the cause of everything Anakin now wants to do things the Jedi way, even though killing Sidious would make the most sense. Sidious was clearly Anakins enemy just as much as Dooku, the difference is that Sidious came under the guise as a friend.

4. Not becoming a Master is no reason to turn to the DS. This would all be fine if Anakin was a child, which he is not, although he acts like one. After being a Monk for over 10 years you would think he would have more control and be more mature, yet that of course was his downfall, still things could have played out better.

5. A True friend would never let a woman or anything come between them. Sure in AOTC Anakin thought Obi-Wan was holding him back and at that moment I thought that Anakin was begining to fall into darkness, but that was not the case. When Anakin and Kenobi part ways in ROTS he is thanking him and the two appear to be great friends, the next time they see each other, Anakin wants him dead, for no reason at all.

6. That much I agree on. Anakin was so brainwashed that he couldn't see anything or anyone else past his own wants and desires. You have to be an idiot to be that brainwashed especially in such a small spand of time. That is what diminishes Vader of the PT from the one in the OT (for me). Rather than a hero that was good and noble with some personal baggage that was corrupted by power he didn't know he had, instead we get an unstable kid that is arrogant, whines and kills when things don't go his way. Some people now view Darth Vader as a mad kid in a scary suit that just needed more attention and a hug.
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#20 User is offline   Azrael23 Icon

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 04:07 PM

QUOTE (DarthTherion @ Oct 13 2005, 04:51 PM)
Lucas didn't want to tell the story of a "combat hardened Jedi" who becomes "brutal in his war methods." I personally think there's not much room for development with a plot like that. Lucas chose the route in which he shows Anakin falling because of good intentions...the best of intentions, actually: love, the desire to save a loved one. Isn't that a much more compelling idea than a man who simply wants more and more power?

Keep in mind that ROTJ gives us a strong sense of Vader as a pawn, an unwilling vassal, a good but misled man who regretted a terrible choice he had made.


I can tell you must really like the prequels then.

Actually a plot like that could work if you make the character more interesting and likable, and yes the good aspect of the character would be there, it would have love and desire in more of a subtle way.

and since Lucas didn't make Anakin likable then that was another reason the PT didn't work. Love and desire could work if the writting and directing was good, but since it was forced feed to the viewers and didn't look convincing I would preferred how I originally envisioned things to be.

ROTJ gives you the sense that Vader was a pawn, yet and still Vader had an edge.
You think of him as being corrupted by power he sought, only to see a life he helped create be threatened and then he makes a choice to sacrifice himself for it.
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#21 User is offline   Zatoichi Icon

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 04:47 PM

I think most of us enjoyed the idea that there was a story about what lead up to Ep. 4 that we all truly think that it should have been done much better.
Apparently writing about JM here is his secret weakness. Muwahaha!!!! Now I have leverage over him and am another step closer towards my goal of world domination.

"And the Evil that was vanquished shall rise anew. Wrapped in the guise of man shall he walk amongst the innocent and Terror shall consume they that dwell upon the Earth. The skies will rain fire. The seas shall become as blood. The righteous shall fall before the wicked! And all creation shall tremble before the burning standards of Hell!" - Mephisto

Kurgan X showed me this web comic done with Legos. It pokes fun at all six Star Wars films and I found it to be extremely entertaining.
<a href="http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html" target="_blank">http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html</a>
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#22 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 13 October 2005 - 07:52 PM

no.

i would have settled for a passable story...

instead i got the adventures of captain flip-flop!
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#23 User is offline   Azrael23 Icon

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Post icon  Posted 13 October 2005 - 09:08 PM

QUOTE (barend @ Oct 13 2005, 08:52 PM)
no.

i would have settled for a passable story...

instead i got the adventures of captain flip-flop!


laugh.gif
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#24 User is offline   DarthTherion Icon

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 01:25 AM

My current opinion on the PT is that it is not nearly as good at the OT but not nearly as bad as most people on this forum consider it. I very much like the direction the storyline takes; the execution is a little shaky. I need to watch the PT again soon -- as soon as ROTS is out on dvd, I'll watch them all in a day or two and let you know what I think then.

I don't really have the time or the will to respond to each of Azrael's points about Anakin individually -- but I will say this: it sometimes seems like we're talking about different films here.

One example: You say it's a contradiction that Anakin kills Dooku without a trial but then insists that Palpatine be given one. But what is it that Anakin says after murdering Dooku? "I shouldn't have done that." He acknowledges that he did the wrong thing by killing without a fair trial. Wouldn't it be logical for him to try to resolve things differently when a similar situation comes up? Isn't that consistent?

The irony here is that Anakin's motivation is *actually* his own personal gain, not an abstract concept of justice (he is acting out of self interest when he kills Dooku *and* when he saves Palpatine -- this is also consistent). He can't see that clearly because he's a character involved in the situation. We're the audience; we're meant to see the fuller picture and evaluate the character based on the deeper motivations of his actions.

Bah, this is getting us nowhere. No one's listening anyway. Goodnight.
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#25 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 01:48 AM

the only real contradiction worth mentioning is that everything obiwan said in ANH is a complete and utter lie!!!!

it was one thing to protect luke from the truth about his father...

but seriously...


dude...


yechhh...
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#26 User is offline   Azrael23 Icon

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 01:52 AM

QUOTE (DarthTherion @ Oct 14 2005, 02:25 AM)
My current opinion on the PT is that it is not nearly as good at the OT but not nearly as bad as most people on this forum consider it. I very much like the direction the storyline takes; the execution is a little shaky. I need to watch the PT again soon -- as soon as ROTS is out on dvd, I'll watch them all in a day or two and let you know what I think then.

I don't really have the time or the will to respond to each of Azrael's points about Anakin individually -- but I will say this: it sometimes seems like we're talking about different films here.

One example: You say it's a contradiction that Anakin kills Dooku without a trial but then insists that Palpatine be given one. But what is it that Anakin says after murdering Dooku? "I shouldn't have done that." He acknowledges that he did the wrong thing by killing without a fair trial. Wouldn't it be logical for him to try to resolve things differently when a similar situation comes up? Isn't that consistent?

The irony here is that Anakin's motivation is *actually* his own personal gain, not an abstract concept of justice (he is acting out of self interest when he kills Dooku *and* when he saves Palpatine -- this is also consistent). He can't see that clearly because he's a character involved in the situation. We're the audience; we're meant to see the fuller picture and evaluate the character based on the deeper motivations of his actions.

Bah, this is getting us nowhere.  No one's listening anyway. Goodnight.



Well you are not under obligation to answer my questions or points, this is merely my personal opinion. I will not debate with you concerning my personal opinion because frankly I don't have the will also, but I will say this it appears you are looking at this far more deeper than GL intended and if asked why he executed the PT the way he did I doubt he would give a far more detail view of it just as you did. The things the OT laid out was paid little attention too. The main focus of the prequels should have been (1) Show the rise and fall of Anakin (2) Chronicle the Clone wars (3) And the Jedi Purge. Even though each was shown neither was done any justice. This is getting nowhere because both of us has different views concerning the approach of these movies, that is all I will say.
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#27 User is offline   Casual Fan Icon

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 02:14 AM

If we take AOTC and ROTS seriously they are pretty horrible.

If the prequels were to be consistent with what we were told in the OT, especially Star Wars, Anakin's turn to the dark side should have been simple. He should have turned due to a good d--- reason. Not that he was told a lie, not that he felt slighted be the Jedi, he should have turned because that was the only way to prevent something more even more horrible from occuring. Period. Remember he was a "good man" and "good friend" and a "cunning warrior". Do you kill an innocent girl to keep everyone in Brazil from dying of disease? That is why Anakin turns to the dark side. Not to save his wife (which he doesn't even do). To save the universe. Anakin and Palpatine combining is the only thing that keeps the universe from being eaten, or falling under the control of somone even more psychotic than Palps, or some such fate.

And Obi Wan and Yoda understand this. But rather than make the choice, they choose to run away. The other Jedi try to interfere and get cut down. And we root for Vader while he does this, because he has to do what he has to do. Otherwise the universe succumbs to a worse fate. Or does he?

Now we have a rich, complex series of movies. Instead, Lucas gives us maybe the most insipid romance to make it to the big screen ever, then his hero sides with essemtially Hitler to preserve it. This is a travesty and I'm not sure how people literate enough to post to a bulletin board can come in and defend it.
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#28 User is offline   DarthTherion Icon

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 03:01 AM

Well, I may have said "goodnight," but I'm back anyway. happy.gif

Look, what I'm addressing for the time being (what I feel is supposed to fall under the topic of this thread) is the internal consistency of Anakin's character in ROTS. If we start branching off into how the trilogies relate or into a my-idea-is-better-than-Lucas' contest, there's no way we can actually have a discussion.

Azrael is quite right in saying that I tend to over-analyze...but in this instance, I'm doing my best to keep things as simple as possible. I'm referencing other parts of the same movie to explain consistency of character and motivation. That's kinda the only way to do that.

Won't you guys concede anything? I can concede that the acting sucks hardcore in the PT. I can concede that there are serious problems with the presentation of certain key figures (and to an extent the Jedi Order itself). Can't you concede that there were some aspects of ROTS that were handled pretty well given the plotline that the film is following?

Oh well. I need to get involved in other areas of these forums. Just wait till you see me argue religions. happy.gif
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#29 User is offline   Azrael23 Icon

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 03:05 AM

QUOTE (DarthTherion @ Oct 14 2005, 02:25 AM)
One example: You say it's a contradiction that Anakin kills Dooku without a trial but then insists that Palpatine be given one. But what is it that Anakin says after murdering Dooku? "I shouldn't have done that." He acknowledges that he did the wrong thing by killing without a fair trial. Wouldn't it be logical for him to try to resolve things differently when a similar situation comes up? Isn't that consistent?


Thats another problem I had with ROTS, when you hear Anakin say this you would never even think he would be killing children by the movies end. If GL followed a simple format of being consistent, by the 3rd movie installment Anakin should have been pure evil and then we could actually expect this sort of thing, yet that is not the case. Even the character of Padme isn't consistent, because throughout the entire PT she is potrayed as a strong woman with drive, determination and a capable leader, yet her reason for death in ROTS is ?? because of a broken heart rolleyes.gif despite the fact that she is giving birth to 2 kids that will no doubt need her in these dark times, you would think she would have a fighting spirit, so this situation is not in harmony with her already established character. I could go on and on but you get the point.
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#30 User is offline   Azrael23 Icon

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Posted 14 October 2005 - 03:13 AM

QUOTE (DarthTherion @ Oct 14 2005, 04:01 AM)
Can't you concede that there were some aspects of ROTS that were handled pretty well given the plotline that the film is following?

Oh well. I need to get involved in other areas of these forums. Just wait till you see me argue religions. happy.gif


Yes I can concede smile.gif I'm not a total SW prequel basher, I do like the movies to a degree, but I still will acknowledge that they could have been alot better. Some things were handled okay other things are glossed over big time.

I knew you would surface again Darth Therion biggrin.gif and religion is one of my favorite subjects to argue about as well.
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