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Calling out the bashers

#1 User is offline   Cosmic Underwear Icon

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 02:25 PM

You can hate the PT for bad acting and bad dialogue but there is a story there. If you don't see the six episodes as one big movie, you'll never see the story that ties the two trilogies together. Now there is the obvious story of good Jedi vs. bad Sith and Anakin made the wrong choice, however, there is another story beneath the surface, but you have get over what you see as an egregious failure on behalf of Lucas. You have to let go of your hate, just like Luke tells his father.

Now I'm not some guy that gushes all over the PT. In fact, I'm old school Star Wars and I didn't really know what to think of E1 and E2 when I saw them. In fact, I didn't even bother to sit down and study them until the OT came out on DVD. Then I sat down and studied all five movies. Then after reading the Stover E3 novelization I realized what Lucas was saying. Now of course Anakin had to fall to the darkside because he was Darth Vader in the OT, but it's not because of anything he did. It's because of what the Jedi and people of the Republic did. The Jedi are corrupt and they corrupted him but the story actually goes even deeper than that.

Lucas has always used visuals to tell the story. See no one tells you that Darth Vader's ship in E4 is a long range fighter that is capable of deep space travel. You're just supposed to see it in how his ship looks different from the other TIEs. Notice Vader's ship has a larger body and has four engines instead of just two, and that's how he is able to survive the long journey.

Lucas tells the audience that the Jedi are corrupt in E3 with visuals. Notice in E1 and E2 that the floor of the Jedi Council chamber is spotless but in E3 it's filthy. So what's the deal here? Do you think the Jedi fired the cleaning crew or is Lucas using symbolism? If they fired the cleaning crew, then how come the rest of the Jedi Temple is spotless?

Anakin was given to the people to bring balance to the Force and he was going to do it the easy way or the hard way. The people were going to be taught a lesson about being indifferent to the suffering of others, and that lesson was called the Empire, because Anakin was a vessel created by something greater than the mortals of Star Wars. The episodes don't come out and say what is guiding these mortal characters to their destinies but hints are dropped here and there that these characters are being guided by something greater than themsleves. Is it the Force? Is it gods? I don't know, but it's something, and it helped guide Anakin to the darkside so the Jedi and people would be taught a lesson about being indifferent to the suffering of others like children born into bondage.

This is the piece of dialogue that was planted in E6 over twenty years ago to show that the Force is balanced.

"I have felt him my master."
"Strange that I have not."

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#2 User is offline   Revan-47 Icon

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 03:16 PM

I agree!

While i would not go as deep as you, ive always accepted the prequels as part of the star wars story, and have enjoyed them for that. Bless you newbie, for saying what few are thinking on this site, and wouldnt dare say amongst basher central.
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#3 User is offline   Otal Nimrodi Icon

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 03:24 PM

^^ Bless. But I never liked Star Wars much in the first place, so that's why I tend to bash so much.
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Posted 28 September 2005 - 03:24 PM

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#5 User is offline   Otal Nimrodi Icon

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 03:26 PM

What's the smiley about?
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Posted 28 September 2005 - 03:30 PM

Bah, I just typed out a hugely detailed reply to this, the most I've written about SW in ages.

Then accidently cleared it all and can't get it back.

Can't be bothered to type it all again, so I'll just say good luck to you and all who sail in your gusher-friendly schooner.
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#7 User is offline   Otal Nimrodi Icon

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 03:47 PM

Yarr, that be deserving of a pirate.gif.

This post has been edited by Otal Nimrodi: 28 September 2005 - 03:47 PM

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#8 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 06:56 PM

what pearls of storytelling was lucas trying to visually relay to us with:

-1950s retro earth style diner.
-ET
-worms dispatched by the flying droid sent by the polymorphic girl hired by the bounty hunter comishened to make clones by the jedi who dissappeared who lived in the house that jack built?
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Posted 28 September 2005 - 07:28 PM

QUOTE (Cosmic Underwear @ Sep 28 2005, 02:25 PM)
You have to let go of your hate, just like Luke tells his father. 

DP(Me):Its not so much hate as it is with disappointment, especially since Lucas and all spent every day of the making of each PT movie with a "this is gonna be the greatest!" and it wasn't three times in a row.

It's because of what the Jedi and people of the Republic did.  The Jedi are corrupt and they corrupted him but the story actually goes even deeper than that. 

DP:And dad drinks because I did bad in school and mom gets beatings from him because she can't get the cleaning and the cooking done perfectly. And since human beings are in effect flawed and everything they make is flawed by extension, then its Ok to rape, murder, and loot.

Lucas has always used visuals to tell the story.  See no one tells you that Darth Vader's ship in E4 is a long range fighter that is capable of deep space travel.  You're just supposed to see it in how his ship looks different from the other TIEs.  Notice Vader's ship has a larger body and has four engines instead of just two, and that's how he is able to survive the long journey.

DP: ??? Vader's ship was made different so you could tell it apart easily in the Battle of Yavin, thank the storyboard artist and modelmakers. Same reason that in Westerns the villian usually wore black with a black horse to ride around on.

Lucas tells the audience that the Jedi are corrupt in E3 with visuals.  Notice in E1 and E2 that the floor of the Jedi Council chamber is spotless but in E3 it's filthy.  So what's the deal here?  Do you think the Jedi fired the cleaning crew or is Lucas using symbolism?  If they fired the cleaning crew, then how come the rest of the Jedi Temple is spotless? 

DP: A dirty floor? Maybe it was filthy because palpatine pulled the cleaning droids away so they could be in the secret tower to rebuild Vader and add his body armor. Plus, Anakin going on a killing spree in the Jedi Temple did leave a number of scuff marks.....

Anakin was given to the people to bring balance to the Force and he was going to do it the easy way or the hard way.  The people were going to be taught a lesson about being indifferent to the suffering of others, and that lesson was called the Empire, because Anakin was a vessel created by something greater than the mortals of Star Wars.  The episodes don't come out and say what is guiding these mortal characters to their destinies but hints are dropped here and there that these characters are being guided by something greater than themsleves.  Is it the Force?  Is it gods?  I don't know, but it's something, and it helped guide Anakin to the darkside so the Jedi and people would be taught a lesson about being indifferent to the suffering of others like children born into bondage.


DP: If the Jedi mediated conflicts and preserved peace and justice in the galaxy for millennia, it doesn't fit really. Obi Wan'sspeech in TPM about the Gungans and the Naboo forming a symbionic relationship of mutual dependence shows that even a Padiwan learner knows about such subelties, and Qui Gon's insistence on taking Jar Jar along despite Obi Wan's admonition of jar Jar being "another useless lifeform" also reinforces the notion that the Jedi are respectful to life.
This is the piece of dialogue that was planted in E6 over twenty years ago to show that the Force is balanced.


"I have felt him my master."
"Strange that I have not."

DP: Nor would he has palpatine by that time is content with the unlimiyed power he's attained so he's drunk on it. Vader was getting some satisfaction in stomping out the Empire before crossing paths with Luke made him remember being a potential father, who he was, what he lost, and the hope he could carve out a new life with Luke and his present state as Vader and implement his dream of peace throughout the galaxy, the naive dream he had before taking a really big bad turn.

Overall you made a series of good points and you're certainly entitled to your views. I just don't believe that there's the masterful material there in the PT to enjoy a decent, well presented story. The whole thing is a mess that falls short of having the grand things you described as being there. If you enjoy the films, power to you though.

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#10 User is offline   Otal Nimrodi Icon

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 07:33 PM

Edit: Said something stupid.

This post has been edited by Otal Nimrodi: 28 September 2005 - 07:33 PM

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Posted 28 September 2005 - 10:10 PM

The floor was dirty because of "imper-you've-ments" in the software.

I'm glad so many people feel enthusiasm and satisfaction in regards to the PT.
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#12 User is offline   Cosmic Underwear Icon

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Posted 29 September 2005 - 02:05 PM

[QUOTE]DP:Its not so much hate as it is with disappointment, especially since Lucas and all spent every day of the making of each PT movie with a "this is gonna be the greatest!" and it wasn't three times in a row.

Cosmic Underwear: What many fans aren't understanding is that Lucas never made the PT to one up the OT. The truth is that the only thing better in the PT are the lightsaber battles. Here is a quote that Lucas made in 1982 and for those you who don't know that' one year before E6 was released:
Source: STARLOG Magazine #48, July 1982

"The first Trilogy will not be as much of an action adventure kind of thing. Maybe we'll make it have some humor, but right now it's much more humorless than this one...a little more Machiavellian - it's all plotting - more of a mystery."



DP:And dad drinks because I did bad in school and mom gets beatings from him because she can't get the cleaning and the cooking done perfectly. And since human beings are in effect flawed and everything they make is flawed by extension, then its Ok to rape, murder, and loot.

CU: Well actually that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is Anakin's turn was the will of what ever is guiding these charaters. See the people are corrupt and they have to be taught a lesson by the higher power of the Star Wars universe. See the Jedi were already indifferent to suffering along with the people of the Republic that's why Anakin was born into bondage in the first place. The Jedi should of never made a pact with the devil first before Anakin did. See when you look at those images of clone babies and clone children, you're supposed to say to yourself, "That's screwed up." But most fans just want to see cool explosions and that's algood, however, you're supposed to make the connection that cloning sentient beings to be what essentially amounts to a slave army is wrong and the Jedi should of known that it was wrong to go down this path.
This is from Salvatore's E2 novel:
The callousness of it all struck Obi-Wan profoundly. Units. Final product. These were living beings they were talking about. Living, breathing, and thinking. To create clones for such a singular purpose, under such control, even stealing half their childhood for effeciency, assualted his sense of right and wrong, and the fact that a Jedi Master had begun all of this was almost too much to digest.

DP: ??? Vader's ship was made different so you could tell it apart easily in the Battle of Yavin, thank the storyboard artist and modelmakers. Same reason that in Westerns the villian usually wore black with a black horse to ride around on.

CM: They could of just made it a different color with different wings to show what ship is Vader's, but they also added two more engines and made the body larger. So this is to show that Vader's ship has long range capabilities because it was established by Obi-Wan dialogue earlier in the movie that the regular TIE's are short range fighters.

DP: A dirty floor? Maybe it was filthy because palpatine pulled the cleaning droids away so they could be in the secret tower to rebuild Vader and add his body armor. Plus, Anakin going on a killing spree in the Jedi Temple did leave a number of scuff marks.....

CU: The dirty floor is symbolic of corruption, and the floor was dirty thirty minutes into the movie, about an hour later Anakin goes on the killing spree.

DP: If the Jedi mediated conflicts and preserved peace and justice in the galaxy for millennia, it doesn't fit really. Obi Wan'sspeech in TPM about the Gungans and the Naboo forming a symbionic relationship of mutual dependence shows that even a Padiwan learner knows about such subelties, and Qui Gon's insistence on taking Jar Jar along despite Obi Wan's admonition of jar Jar being "another useless lifeform" also reinforces the notion that the Jedi are respectful to life.

CU: The Jedi don't know that they have become corrupt, just like Palpatine doesn't know he's corrupt. Now are the Jedi as corrupt as Palpatine. Well Palpatine telling Anakin to kill those younglings is pretty corrupt, but what about the clones? Wasn't half their life stolen from them? The Jedi didn't seem to mind that. The Jedi didn't seem to mind leading them into battles where many of them would die. Battles that the clones had nothing to do with. Why are Jedi taking children from their parents? Why are Jedi training children to be warriors? Isn't the choice of becoming a warrior to be left up to the individual? Luke wasn't taken and made a warrior. No, he made a conscious choice to become one, and in the end he makes all the right moves. So it kind of throws out the theory of taking a Force sensitive child from their parents is in the best interest of everyone.

"I have felt him my master."
"Strange that I have not."


DP: Nor would he has palpatine by that time is content with the unlimiyed power he's attained so he's drunk on it. Vader was getting some satisfaction in stomping out the Empire before crossing paths with Luke made him remember being a potential father, who he was, what he lost, and the hope he could carve out a new life with Luke and his present state as Vader and implement his dream of peace throughout the galaxy, the naive dream he had before taking a really big bad turn.

No, you're going too deep with this simple dialogue. This dialogue is very simple to interpret. Palpatine cannot sense Luke for same reason that the Jedi couldn't sense Palptine. The Force was in darkness in EI and it only grows darker in E2 and E3 Anakin was created to bring balance to the Force, it's a prophecy handed down to the Jedi. So does it not stand to reason that if the Force was balanced 9 years before Anakin, then there would be no Anakin, because he was created for one reason. To bring balance. So if the Force is balanced then Anakin would of never been created. So with this in mind, the Force must be unbalanced before Qui-Gon finds Anakin. So what exactly does balance mean? I don't really know but I think it has to do with the philosophy that there will always be evil but the strong have to protect the weak from the evil. Enter the Rebel Alliance who fight the evil, not with huge armies and vast resources but really only with faith in what they're fighting for. Freedom for all, like the freedom of children born into bondage.
"The Force?"
"It's an energy field created by all living things."

The Jedi cannot sense Palptine because the Force is in darkness or unbalanced, and the Jedi do not draw their power from the dark.
Palpatine cannot sense Luke because the Force is in the light or balanced, and the Sith do not draw their power from the light.

Now I know this reply was long but there is no easy way to explain all this but this is from Stover's E3 novel and it shows how Obi-Wan hasn't felt the full power of the light since he was a child:
Somehow, mysteriously, the cloud that has darkened the Force for near to a decade and a half has lightened around him now, and he finds within himself the limpid clarity he recalls from his schooldays at the Jedi Temple, when the Force was pure, and clean, and perfect. It is as though the darkness has withdrawn, to return to him the full power of the light, if only for the moment: he does not know why, but he is incapable of even wondering. In the Force, he is beyound questions.

Notice that it appears that something is manipulating the Force itself, something that Obi-Wan cannot explain.
Now I know none of what Obi-Wan is feeling is talked about in the movie but notice how powerful Obi-Wan is. When Anakin and Obi-Wan crash land on The Invisible Hand, notice how Obi-Wan flies out of the cockpit while Anakin just kind of jumps out.

"I have felt him my master."
"Strange that I have not."


Palpatine is losing his ability to use the Force because he draws his power from the darkness but the Force is no longer in the dark because the people have stopped being afraid, they now care for one another (i.e. Han and Lando), and they fight for each other.

Another Lucas quote:
Source: Vanity Fair Febuary 2005
"The intereting thing about Star Wars--and I didn't ever really push this very, because it's not really that important--but there's a lot going on ther that most people haven't come to grips with yet. But when they do, they will find it's a much more intricately made clock than most people would imagine."

The one thing that people don't really see when they watch Star Wars is that what the characters are saying isn't really how it is. What I mean is that you have to look back at how the story played out and make your own conclusion on which character was right and which one was wrong. See when most people watch E5 they think that Luke made the wrong choice by going to Cloud City because Yoda and Obi-Wan tell him he's making the wrong choice, but Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong. Luke made the choice he was supposed to make, he made the choice that the higher power wanted him to make. By going to Cloud City, Luke does save his friends. Well R2 does anyway, but more importantly Luke saves Captain Piett.

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This post has been edited by Cosmic Underwear: 29 September 2005 - 02:08 PM

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#13 User is offline   Zatoichi Icon

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Posted 29 September 2005 - 03:42 PM

Just a teeny little thing. Yoda and Obi-wan told Luke not to go, but they gave him advice anyway. Since they were already hiding the truth from him, among other things, I think that they were sort of challenging him without they themselves really knowing it. Also, I have always thought that Luke did the right thing. These were other leaders among the Rebellion, especially Leia (Who in the EU gathered some of the greatest support from others). Had they fallen into the Empire's hands permanently, Lando might not have decided to join the Alliance. So of course he made the right decision, it helped many other things fall into place. I know that we're almost on the same page here.

Everything about the PT is great and all, but it was badly done. Certain details detracted from the overall movies. Heck, if any other Jedi besides Yoda showed some realization to what was happening it would have been much more believable. They could have showed a sceen with Qui-gon or Obi-wan arguing with Yoda and Mace about the things in the galaxy that the Jedi turned a blind eye to. The fact that nobody even argued about such things took away from the believability. It made it seem as though just about almost every character in the films was sucky and uncaring. Contradicting the OT only made it worse.

Oh, and by the way I think that Palpatine knew that he was corrupt. He was formulating all of these plans to bring ruin to the galaxy and rule it, not by accident.
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Posted 29 September 2005 - 03:54 PM

This is all well and good. I am glad that some people can enjoy these movies. I watched THE PHANTOM MENACE and it was so horribly dull and its plot so poorly contrived I decided not to watch the other two. Nothing I've heard about them, from basher and gushers alike, has convinced me that I made the wrong decision. It's interesting that Lucas seems to want us to believe that the PT is more thoughtful, more subtle, and less action-driven, because TPM was all action, and dumb action at that. I didn't find any of it engaging in the least, and I did watch it twice.

At one point there is some nice choral work, but all it did was remind me of how great is Carmina Burana and hence the soundtracks to the CONAN movies. It didn't make me think the dumb swordfight was any good. Yes I know a lot of people thought it was great, but really it wasn't. Those people who want to see Liam Neeson in a great swordfight that is tied to character and plot should rent or buy the widescreen version of ROB ROY.
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Posted 12 October 2005 - 01:50 AM

This is a really great topic. It actually anticipates something that I wanted to start a thread about (but never had time to formulate my thoughts into a cohesive essay): the role of fate in the PT.

CU has made some excellent points. I really enjoyed the quotations from Lucas to illustrate what I have long suspected -- that the PT was made not to surpass or even equal the OT, but to provide the intricate background against which one can read the classic movies.

One thing I noticed about the PT is the progression of the "tone" of narrative. Episode I feels like a kid's movie *far* more than any other episode of the saga. This is rather appropriate, seeing as its subject is an innocent child. In A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, Joyce employs a similar technique when describing his hero's formative years, composing the first chapter in a childlike voice and then maturing each successive chapter. One might argue that the narrative of the PT "matures" in accordance with the age and mental state of the hero.

As an aside, TPM -- which may be in a very rare category in regards to this point-- is one of the few movies in which the bad guy wins and this is not made explicit. I honestly cannot think of another movie with that kind of ending...can anyone?

The other point that I want to bring up is the fact that the moral relativism in the PT, which many bashers despise as a departure from the OT, actually fleshes out a concept that was implicit in the original movies: that there is no absolute good or evil in action; it is the mental state of the individuals participating in this action that renders its effects positive or negative. Concrete example: Anakin saving Palpatine from Mace vs. saving Luke from Palpatine. In both cases there is a rescue -- but in one, Anakin is acting from self-interest and in the other he is motivated by a more selfless state of mind. One can actually read the parallel journeys of Luke and Anakin in this context, and it is quite rewarding.

Lastly, I love the connection of the Emperor's inability to sense Luke with the apparent ignorance of the Jedi. A *very* clever interpretation, though I'm not sure how much I agree with it. What's great is that there is a clear parallel between the dominant force users and their blindness to their immanent doom.

My interpretation of "balance" has always had more to do with Taoism and the idea of energy returning to the point of least resistance. When either side pushes too hard, the whole system acts to bring it back into line. In a real sense, this "balancing" is quite amoral, and I think this is what Lucas is refering to when he speaks of things that people have yet to "come to grips with." The idea of the Force as amoral is something we might be inclined to resist...almost as much as we resist the idea of the spiritual being entwined with organisms in our cells. And yet both of these concepts are natural conclusions if we accept the Force as a Pantheistic energy field.

Anyway, those are my ramblings on the subject. Sorry I am not more coherent, but it is late, and I am excited after having just stumbled onto this wonderful topic. Great job, CU! I will see if I can find the time to type up an essay of my own and post it in the days to come.
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