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DOH! Why didn't I see this before! What the real problem is with the ROTS

#1 User is offline   Reindeer Icon

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Posted 25 August 2005 - 07:16 PM

Ever been in a situation where something seems wrong, but you just can't put your finger on it? ESPECIALLY when you can identify to at least a degree the part that is wrong?

I've been thinking about why there is such a mismatch between the OT and the PT.

At first, I thought it was simply the evolution of a basic sci-fi story into a superhuman space opera. What I mean by this is whatever one might say about the OT, especially ANH and ESB, they were still basically science-fiction action stories. With the exception of Vader's force choke, there was no real overt supernatual abilities in the first film, and while they did become more prevalent in ESB, they were kind of a logical extention of what had been established in ANH. Starting with ROTJ, the characters started to exhibit some superhuman abilities, but overall, nothing that was that far out of line with what had already been established. Compare this to the PT, where the characters are suddenly able to do rediculous feats, such as fall hundreds of feet without a scratch.

But no, that wasn't it... not entirely anyway.

Neither are the plot holes, the wooden acting, or the evolution towards CGI graphis... those flaws are just too easy to point out, and don't really address the real problems witht he films.

It finally occured to me where the real problem lies... the PT is really an attempt at a gothic horror/romance story wrapped in a futuristic setting.

Anakin represents the classic Byronic hero, which is prevalent in all gothic novels. What is that one might ask? Here is a partial entry out of Wikipedia, and as one reads it, they should see that this fits the role of Anakin perfectly.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Byronic_hero

A theme that pervades much of Byron's work is that of the Byronic hero, an idealised but flawed character whose attributes include:

being a rebel
having a distaste for social institutions
being an exile
expressing a lack of respect for rank and privilege
having great talent
hiding an unsavoury past
being highly passionate
ultimately, being self-destructive


Luke Skywalker on the other hand represents something closer to the classic Greek hero, specifically Perseus.

What are some other elements of the gothic horror tradition?

Death and decay... in this case, the fall of the republic.
Encroachment of a new dark age.
A haunted setting. In this case, Palpatine's chambers and the senate. While tecnically not haunted, it does become the locus of evil for the films.
Cruelty and persecution

The epitome of the gothic romance was in the final scenes where Vader is rebuilt, and very closely mirrors the Frankenstein myth.

On the other hand, it is no mystery that Lucas borrowed heavily from Akira Kurosawa for the OT. It is of my opinion that it is the mixing of these very different genres is the reason for the mismatch between the trilogies, and doubtless why many fans of the OT are so disappointed with the PT.
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#2 User is offline   Rick McCallum Icon

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 02:42 AM

I am not sure I got everything but I think you're quite right... the prequels are so twisted... I have never been a gothic fan but your explanaition seems logic... I kinda see the similarities (is that english) between Anakin and Bruce Wayne now!
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#3 User is offline   Casual Fan Icon

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 02:50 AM

This may have been what Lucas was trying to do, but the problem really is that the execution was very, very poor. More time spent on making sparks fly out of Boba Fett's backpack than on hammering out a coherent plot, listenable dialogue, getting good performances from the actors, etc.

The conceptual problem with the Gothic concept, if that is really what Lucas was trying to do, is that Darth Vader is no hero of no Gothic novel. He forgot that however he portrayed Anakin Skywalker, the portrayal must be consistent with what we see as Vader, or there had to be a "surprise" plot twist showing that Anakin wasn't Vader after all. If he really wanted to put Heathclift into "Star Wars", Obi Wan would have been a better candidate.
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#4 User is offline   Revan-47 Icon

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 06:57 PM

Has anybody seen the rocky horror picture show? that is a truly disturbing movie
"Life is too important to be taken seriously."
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#5 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 10:59 AM

just a quick (rather incoherent) thought here, but the gothic idea is very insightful, reindeer. but it (almost) seems to be a conscious effort on lucas' part. lucas compared ROTS to faust, a likely comaprison, but if you read manfred, by byron (and the root of the byronic hero) you cant help but compare it to faust, but then, take into account that byron was friends with mary shelley, you can see where the frankenstien motif fits in. er...well, they're all interconnected and gothic, i think thats cool!

This post has been edited by xenduck: 27 August 2005 - 10:59 AM

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#6 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 27 August 2005 - 12:50 PM

the more i think about it the more brilliant it seems. i dont mean to inssist lucas is brilliant, rather, his work, as a conglomeration of intellects, is brilliant. picture it, anakin is a byronic hero, his story is faustian, and vader is frankenstien. and dare i throw milton's lucifer into the mix?

reindeer, i realize you meant your remarks as a criticism, but i am enamored with the concpet of anakin as a byronic hero [as byron has always been my favorite poet and star wars has always been my favorite movie(s)]. just this week, in fact, i finished re-reading a 600 page anthology of byron's work; so i am kicking myself for not making the connection on my own. i would very much like to write an essay, following-up on this idea, for my thread 'AOTR'. i would, of course, give credit where credit is due.

This post has been edited by xenduck: 27 August 2005 - 12:53 PM

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#7 User is offline   Lord Aquaman Icon

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Posted 30 August 2005 - 07:22 PM

QUOTE (Rick McCallum @ Aug 26 2005, 12:42 AM)
I am not sure I got everything but I think you're quite right... the prequels are so twisted... I have never been a gothic fan but your explanaition seems logic... I kinda see the similarities (is that english) between Anakin and Bruce Wayne now!


I think Bruce Wayne could have taken Anakin down - not Darth Vader, but Anakin.

I'd have to go with Casual Fan that the big problem was poor execution - poor plotting, poor dialogue, poor direction of the performers, etc.

The Byronic hero thing is interesting though.

This post has been edited by Lord Aquaman: 30 August 2005 - 07:35 PM

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I'd like a qui-gon jinn please with an obi-wan to go.
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#8 User is offline   darth gimp Icon

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 05:29 PM

I like the Byronic hero thing. Very nice. I understand what you mean about this being a glaring difference from the OT, but I agree with others that it could have worked...the execution was just poor.
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#9 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 01 September 2005 - 03:36 PM

QUOTE (Lord Aquaman @ Aug 30 2005, 07:22 PM)
I think Bruce Wayne could have taken Anakin down - not Darth Vader, but Anakin.
...
The Byronic hero thing is interesting though.

Bruce Wayne could take down Anakin, yes, but Batman could seriously wreck Darth Vader. There's a guy who knows how to use his anger.

The problem with calling Anakin a Byronic hero is that you're playing the same game Lucas played when he created a simple story and then pretended it was more complex by claiming it was based on mythological sources. For a primer in what is hillarious about this sort of idea, please watch the Coens' O Brother, Where Art Thou?, which they boldly claim is based on Homer's The Odyssey. It is not, but the claim makes the thing hillariously self-important, and of course when here and there they throw out some image or pay lip-service to a name or an event, they get to laugh at those who will take it seriously (remember Fargo, based on a "true story?"

What the Coens did as a piss-take Lucas is doing for real, and with no backing. For all the insistence that these movies are "dark" or that they show the forces that compel heroes to corruption, I haven't seen nor heard of any real darkness, nor have I heard tell that anyone seized upon a simple path to power such as I am led to believe the "Dark Side" is meant to do. When, for instance, did Anakin give in to his hate, his fear or his anger? I thought the whole point of his obeying Palpatine was that he wanted to save someone's life? Even if ill-advised, doesn't that mean that his main weakness is love, and compassion? And isn't the notion of "forbidden love" just tacked on as a weak plot point, rather than as a real character element? ... Ah, it's pathetic. I can't think about this series right now. It's strung together with all the genuine care of a bad soap opera. Frankenstein it ain't.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 01 September 2005 - 03:36 PM

"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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