[xenduck]

well i have to say this, magee, if you were talking about virtually any other movie than star wars i would probably agree with everything you said. about making solutions apparent and bad plot choices. but i just dont think that is the case here. i said earlier in this thread that lucas seems to heavily rely on the audeince's inferences; but that is not a mark of poor writing, only a kind of writing style, like what darththerion was talking about. i happen to like that not everything is apparent and that the viewer is allowed (encouraged) to bring his/her own imagination into the story.

and my point about intricate problems was not aimed at you personally, but at bashers. the thing is, you, for the most part, are not searching for problems, but neither am i searching for solutions. i see the movies a certain way, ive been describing how i saw them; same as you.

and sargon, while you make a valid point, what do you mean 'nongushers'? do you mean people who liked the movie but not particular portions? if so, then i am a nongusher, because there are portions i think could have been better (not that they were bad, but could have been better). i feel that anakin got what he deserved; a specific path leads to a secific end. but i sympathize with WHY he went down that path. judging only from the people i have spoken with personally, they too understand why anakin fell, but also understand why obi had to chop him up. they sympathize with both.

[sargon1955]

and sargon, while you make a valid point, what do you mean 'nongushers'?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I mean people who AREN'T such big Star Wars fans that they actually get offended if you tell them it's just a movie (I've experienced that reaction). I mean people who DON'T reflexively defend Lucas' choices because it's "his movie" (I can't count the number of times these people have told me that). I mean people who DON'T brandish toy light sabers as if it makes them a Jedi Knight. I mean people who don't post that they will LITERALLY buy shit if it has the name "Star Wars" on it (yes, I saw someone post that). I mean someone who isn't one of THESE people:

http://www.milkandco...com/links/2536/

This post has been edited by sargon1955: 05 August 2005 - 09:39 PM

[yourUsername]

Yeah, it's all "potential", ie just people TALKING about how "powerful" he is, or "could be"  (his midichlorian count, blah blah).  It isn't shown.

This was one of the observations I meant to convey with this thread. Also, after so many years between III and IV, how powerful has he become?

But you're right that he's an arrogant little shit.  If you asked 100 (nongushers) people how they felt when he got his legs cut off and burned, I think you'd find damn few who would say "ohhhh, I felt soooooo sorry for the Chosen One.

I actually felt bad when Anakin turned to the Dark Side because he was actually trying hard to become a decent Jedi in ROTS. I assumed he would still be whiny and angry, bitching about how there's a conspiracy against him because he's so great, which he still did but much more tempered. Turns out he had a reason for all those misgivings, though, as he was still mistrusted when he was doing the right thing; Mace acting like an ass to him after revealing who the Sith Lord was actually made me feel for him. I was surprised that Anakin's potential for good had been explored as it had.

[diligent_d]

Yeah I'm one of the few people who liked Anakin in ROTS. The rest of the movie sucked, but I did like him.

[sargon1955]

Turns out he had a reason for all those misgivings, though, as he was still mistrusted when he was doing the right thing; Mace acting like an ass to him after revealing who the Sith Lord was actually made me feel for him.

Makes no sense to me. Anakin winds up justifying and confirming every misgiving the Jedi had about him. This is the first time I've seen it implied that his turn to the dark side was caused in part by his treatment by the Jedi ("if I had only been loved more, I wouldn't have become Vader!"). He got what he deserved, based on his OWN actions, period.

[xenduck]

i never liked anakin much, im mean, hes alright i guess, but i never liked vader that much either. sidious is my favorite character, all the way around. so natrually i was thinking the whole time, "that silly annie, he cant match wits with sidious, palps could have him quaking like a duck, if he wanted." so anakin's easy manipulation didnt bother me, plus, if i think of anakin as being manipulated, being used- hen i do sympathize with him all the more.

[yourUsername]

Makes no sense to me.  Anakin winds up justifying and confirming every misgiving the Jedi had about him.  This is the first time I've seen it implied that his turn to the dark side was caused in part by his treatment by the Jedi ("if I had only been loved more, I wouldn't have become Vader!").  He got what he deserved, based on his OWN actions, period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thing is, the Jedi did have a part in turning Vader; that was why it was necessary for them to be eradicated as much as they had. Qui-Gon could have trained Anakin properly, and probably made him the Chosen One he was supposed to become. As it happened, he did fulfill that route, but in a much more convoluted way. The Jedi's disconnection with the Force played as much a role in what happened as did the Sith.

[Chefelf]

We don't really see any indication that Obi-Wan has failed as a teacher (other than him saying, "I have failed you."). It really just seems that Anakin's turn is his own stupid fault.

This is too bad because Obi-Wan's speech in ROTJ leads us to believe that he was to blame for Anakin's fall to the dark side. We now know that it is only Anakin's own stupidity that is to blame.

[sargon1955]

Thing is, the Jedi did have a part in turning Vader; that was why it was necessary for them to be eradicated as much as they had.  Qui-Gon could have trained Anakin properly, and probably made him the Chosen One he was supposed to become.  As it happened, he did fulfill that route, but in a much more convoluted way.  The Jedi's disconnection with the Force played as much a role in what happened as did the Sith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is absolutely nothing in the OT that says or even implies that the Jedi "had" to be eradicated. That was a story choice Lucas made for the PT (and a poor one at that). It fascinates me that gushers treat Lucas' choices as if they were handed to him on stone tablets. It's loathsome to me that he chose to make the Jedi a bunch of incompetent, clueless snobs who got what was coming to them, instead of noble "guardians of peace and justice" who were destroyed by treachery. NOTHING they did "forced" any of Anakin's choices. He blew it all on his own.

[Despondent]

First off, Sargon: thanks for the fabulous link.

Maybe Ben's ramblings of a crazy old coot in Jedi was just a way for Lucas to apologize through proxy. Once Absolved, he was guilt free with a completed saga

for him to poop on.

[xenduck]

well, like lucas said, titanic in space. i see anakin's fall as being similar to the sinking of the titanic; many small problems combined brought down the unsinkable. though obi-wan was highly competent, he was simply unprepared to train the "chosen one". i think qui-gon would have been ideal to do the job but obi, by being his apprentice, was also a good chioce, just not good enough.

[sargon1955]

well, like lucas said, titanic in space. i see anakin's fall as being similar to the sinking of the titanic; many small problems combined brought down the unsinkable. though obi-wan was highly competent, he was simply unprepared to train the "chosen one". i think qui-gon would have been ideal to do the job but obi, by being his apprentice, was also a good chioce, just not good enough.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Problem is, Lucas was referring to the "big" Anakin/Padme "romance" when he made that comparison. It says a lot how completely and ridiculously he failed when you have to put a completely different interpretation on it.

[xenduck]

sorry if i came across as misrepresenting lucas's statement. i was just trying be clever. you know, play one how he meant the movie 'titanic' and i mean the events which made the ship legendary. i was attempting to use his own metaphor in a new way, to describe a different concept. two sides of the same coin. if that seems ridiculous then i am to blame, not lucas.

[yourUsername]

The Jedi having to fall was part of the prophecy. Yoda even comments on the mis-reading of the prophecy, and the sharper audience caught on to the fact that the overwhelming presence of the Jedi was part of the "imbalance" being referred to. Yoda commenting on the "overconfidence" of the Jedi and their council, which Qui-Gon would not be a part of, were indications of the wrong direction the Jedi's were headed and the need to dislodge the Jedi from their lofty and out-of-tune positions. The Force handed them someone that would lead to their downfall because they were so out of touch.

Of course, Yoda did a lot of belly-aching with Luke in the OT, too. What was that about?

[sargon1955]

The Jedi having to fall was part of the prophecy.  Yoda even comments on the mis-reading of the prophecy, and the sharper audience caught on to the fact that the overwhelming presence of the Jedi was part of the "imbalance" being referred to.  Yoda commenting on the "overconfidence" of the Jedi and their council, which Qui-Gon would not be a part of, were indications of the wrong direction the Jedi's were headed and the need to dislodge the Jedi from their lofty and out-of-tune positions.  The Force handed them someone that would lead to their downfall because they were so out of touch.

Of course, Yoda did a lot of belly-aching with Luke in the OT, too.  What was that about?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There was no such prophecy in the OT, and there didn't need to be one in the PT. It was Lucas' attempt at introducing a mythic fantasy aspect. And why was it bad for there to be a hell of a lot more good guys than bad guys? Unless Lucas has the Sidius attitude that good and bad are "just a point of view"....