[sargon1955]

the jedi(sith) are the elite of the galaxy; yoda, obi, mace, palps, and annie are the elite of the jedi(sith).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And Obi cuts off his legs and leaves him a burnt half corpse. Meaning he wasn't SHOWN as the Most Powerful Grand Poobah Jedi, just an arrogant snot who thinks highly of himself. I've never see anyone write that they felt sorry at all for the twit when Obi beat him. And I'm so tired of the "annie" name. It makes him sound like a red headed orphan girl.

[xenduck]

how many ways can i say the same thing? anakin was exceptional among the jedi in that he had (supposedly) accomplished a high skill level in a relativly short amount of time (especially given his age and his late start). this advanced skill level put him on par with older, more experienced jedi, who themselves stood-out. the idea here is something like this: an 'average' jedi who lived to be 60 would reach level 30, if obi lived to 60 he would be level 60, if anakin lived to be 60 he would have reached a level like 100, or something off the scale. but since obi was nearly twice anakin's age, there skill levels had equaled out. for anakin to be on par with a master twice his age is what makes him exceptional.

picture this, a 13yr old could be a black belt in karate, but would you expect him to win against a 26yr old black belt? if the younger kid won, then he would be considred exceptional

and it is to be expected that lucas intended for no one to feel sympathy for crispy anakin, becuase that would make obi-wan look like a jerk.

[Charamei]

Only answering this bit...

...and it is to be expected that lucas intended for no one to feel sympathy for crispy anakin, becuase that would make obi-wan look like a jerk.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not a good excuse. A good writer, a really good writer, would give us two sympathetic characters.

That is, you would feel sorry for Anakin, but you would also understand why Obi-Wan had to do what he did, and sympathise with his position at the time.

It is possible. Lucas failed to do it. We feel for Obi-Wan, but not for Anakin. In fact, I have to say, I was rooting for the lava in that scene...

[DarthTherion]

Xenduck is, as usual, doing a fantastic job of making this a great discussion. Keep it up, buddy!

If you read Xenduck's posts carefully, Magee's "two questions" are very easily answered:

1) Palpatine desired Anakin's help because he saw that Anakin was on the road to becoming more powerful than any other Jedi -- and the fact that Anakin was so young and in love made it much easier to manipulate him. Palpatine obviously had no chance of converting one of the "old guard" Jedi.

["I see you becoming the most powerful of the Jedi"..."I will have soon have a new apprentice, younger and more powerful." Note also that it was Palpatine who suggested that Obi-wan and Anakin protect Padme in AOTC]

2) The Emperor was not about to let a powerful and easily-manipulated Force user slip through his fingers. I don't think Anakin was absolutely necessary to the Emperor's plan, but he was a big help, and Palpatine was doing everything he could to make sure that Anakin was on his side.

Anakin killed all of the Jedi in the temple -- this includes all the adults who were there. He led the stormtroopers in the slaughter and personally killed many of these Jedi. We know this because later in the movie, we see images of these fights in the security holograph from the temple.

Lucas chose to show a brief scene of Anakin preparing to slaughter the children to shock the audience, to symbolize the destruction of the next generation of Jedi, and to indicate the barbaric lengths to which the dark side will drive a man locked in its grip. [Julie's point about the "chosen one" idea removing Anakin's responsibility for his actions is a good one, and properly discussing it would require alot of space. Maybe I'll start another thread for that when I have time]

I, for one, actually did feel bad when Anakin was burned. He was an idealistic young man in love who saw his good intentions crumble away beneath him bit by bit. And that's in addition to being forced to live on, hideously disfigured.

[Despondent]

in addition to being forced to live on, hideously disfigured.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like the Saga itself.


I don't care anymore. Like an election- I may have to live with the results but I don't have to accept it.

[sargon1955]

an 'average' jedi who lived to be 60 would reach level 30, if obi lived to 60 he would be level 60, if anakin lived to be 60 he would have reached a level like 100, or something off the scale. but since obi was nearly twice anakin's age, there skill levels had equaled out. for anakin to be on par with a master twice his age is what makes him exceptional.

So skill level correlates with greater age? You (and Lucas) forget Vader’s line in the first film: “Your powers are weak, old man.” If being twice as old makes one twice as powerful, Obi wouldn’t have been described as “weak”. Vader would have been saying “shit, I’m more powerful, but you’re TWICE as powerful as when you cut my legs off! I’d better quit now!”. And if age makes one more powerful, why isn’t Dooku more powerful than Obi? He’s obviously a LOT “older, more experienced jedi”. But he loses to The Kid, who in turn LOSES to Obi. It doesn’t fit the neat hierarchy of powers you came up with.

picture this, a 13yr old could be a black belt in karate, but would you expect him to win against a 26yr old black belt? if the younger kid won, then he would be considred exceptional

Except that analogy doesn’t apply to this scenario. It’s a twenty something against a 30 something. That isn’t “exceptional”.

and it is to be expected that lucas intended for no one to feel sympathy for crispy anakin, becuase that would make obi-wan look like a jerk.

In other words, the “great tragedy” (oh, poor annie!) that was supposed to happen (Lucas said this movie was supposed to be “Titanic in space”) never materialized.

This post has been edited by sargon1955: 03 August 2005 - 05:24 PM

[Magee]

You know what Xenduck, you might be right, that Anakin's greatness is his rapid development. That would make sense. I still say that it sucks that we never see that development come to fruition considering the PT was supposed to be the story of Anakin as a Jedi. I still say it sucks that Lucas chose to make Anakin NOT the most powerful Jedi at the close of the PT, and left it to the time gap between III and IV, which is not on screen, to reach his potential.

Like alot of my criticisms of the PT, it is not that a person CANNOT explain the inconsistencies or the actions of the characters, it is that in order to do so you have to admit that Lucas made certain choices. And I feel that for the most part those choices are not impossible but unrealistic. You gushers keep explaining the problems with these movies by saying that Lucas' choices are possible. I will concede that in most places, I am not saying that Lucas is a raving lunatic. I am saying that he made very poor choices that hurt the realism of the human story. And as usual your explanations are totally irrelevant to my criticisms.

[xenduck]

So skill level correlates with greater age?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well, that wasnt exactly my point, but lets face it, the longer you spend developing a skill, the better you are at it. to put it simply as possible, the two greatest determinates of skill are talent and experience. obi had more experience (bought with age) and anakin had more talent (intrinsic). anakin could gain more experience, obi could not gain more talent. anakin was POTENTIALLY the most powerful jedi; he was "gifted." thats where ironic tragedy comes in, anakin's gifts made him arrogant, his arrogance ruined his gifts.

magee, i cannot be certain, but i feel confident that i have seen the prequals more than most people here. accumulatively ive seen all three dozens of times (literally a hundred times if you count the OT) so what seems obvious and forthcomming to me, may not be, but only a result of being totally familiar with the subject matter; i can hardly tell anymore. so i suggest you watch the movies one more time, keeping what i have said in mind, and if it doesnt "click" just forget about it.

and let me add it is often the case that as much effort goes into criticism as into explanation. if you think about the movie enough to come up with intricate problems, then whats wrong with thinking about it enough to find intricate solutions?

Charamei, you are right, it is certainly possible. my wording is poorly chosen. the question is, do people feel sympathy for anakin? darththerion did, and so did i-i said as much in my thread 'attack of the rhetoric',

"the 'dragon' is symbolic of anakin's difficult task. this is one more way in which anakin conforms to the heroic archetype. this knowledge helps me to understand, and sympathize with, his fall to the darkside."


i was talking about jung's archetypal hero myths-which being the "chosen one" is an important part of.

[WalkingCarpet]

So effectively what this is boiling down to is a contrast between the old and the Jung........

[Dorothy]

giggle

[xenduck]

So effectively what this is boiling down to is a contrast between the old and the Jung........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

at first i thought that was funny....then i read it again and realized that its REALLY funny!

[Magee]

I cant believe what I just read. Xenduck are you seriously saying that it is the audiences job to "find" solutions in a story? You dont think that it is the job of the storyteller to make those apparent?

But that wasnt even what I was saying. I was simply saying that Lucas made choices that were bad. And I am not "searching" for the problems. My main problem with the PT is that it just plain sucks. If Lucas hadnt written them and they werent connected to the OT which made millions of dollars no studio in the country would have put those movies out.

My detailed posts about the problems with the plot come because not in spite of me having watched the OT thousands of times.

[DarthTherion]

I am trying to resist making a joke about the Jung and the Restless....

It's an interesting question about authors making their storylines' plot points apparent to the audience. I am in the middle of reading Joyce's "Ulysses," which is rather far from what anyone would consider apparent. "Finnegan's Wake" is even less so.

There are some forms of art in which the audience is forced to participate as well, co-authoring (as it were) the story and actively participating in its construction by assembling the pieces laid out before it.

I often remark that the PT is supposed to represent an inversion of the OT, and this may be a prime example. Whereas the OT was extremely clear (and actually pretty simplistic), the PT has alot going on behind the scenes and beneath the surface, so much so that viewers need to piece things together to comprehend fully the significance of many scenes. There is a great deal of care and depth that goes into these movies, as is apparent to anyone reading Xenduck's thread on "Attack of the Rhetoric." And yet at the same time, the average person who has no knowledge of Star Wars whatsoever can watch one of these films and think it "cool." It can appeal to many different audiences at once, an accomplishment quite difficult to pull of.

Or maybe Lucas just sucks, and I'm making excuses for him. I don't think that's true, but even if it is, I'm cool with it. I'm enjoying myself.

Hmmm, I just had a terrible idea. A 700-page fan novelization of Attack of the Clones, done in the style of Joyce. Here's an excerpt:

"His hand brushed lightly against her skin. Flesh, human contact for which he had longed for since a boy -- divorced from the stern aloofness of the Jedi. Warm against his hand. Here the water caught his eye. And wet. Her eyes, so much like mothers. Great sweet mother, mare. Not like home, alack, the flash of double stars burning like the cruel eyes of a she-devil. A vampire to drink up his life-blood with the cold horror of rejection's tomb. A sarlaac pit of hell. And yet, no father. He gazed out to sea. Full fathom five. Ah, Obi-wan. A twinge of jealousy, a pang of joy. Holding me back again. Oedipus -- don't cross my path. She's looking at me. Goodness, all thought in disarray. She thinks of me as Ani. Still. Those awful memories of embarassment. Yippie, indeed. Say something! Words spewed from his lips like a simoom crossing into an oasis:

"--I don't like sand....
___________________________________________________________________

(I am aiming this joke at Xenduck. )

[sargon1955]

anakin was POTENTIALLY the most powerful jedi; he was "gifted." thats where ironic tragedy comes in, anakin's gifts made him arrogant, his arrogance ruined his gifts.

Yeah, it's all "potential", ie just people TALKING about how "powerful" he is, or "could be" (his midichlorian count, blah blah). It isn't shown. But you're right that he's an arrogant little shit. If you asked 100 (nongushers) people how they felt when he got his legs cut off and burned, I think you'd find damn few who would say "ohhhh, I felt soooooo sorry for the Chosen One. I choked up just like I did when Leo died in Titanic!" (Lucas said ROTS would be "Titanic in space").

[xenduck]

darththerion, excellent post! i think you answered magee's post far better than i could have. i recently read through 'a portriate of the artist as a young man' and i know exactly what you're talking about.

i love that last paragraph!!!