[CowboyCurtis]

1) Why does Vader leave his son to grow up alone with relatives on Tatooine?

He believed his son to be dead?

2) If Vader knows that Luke is on Tatooine and is leaving him there deliberately, why doesn't he know where Obi-Wan is, and why does he finally send stormtroopers to the planet in ANH (who also kill Luke's family)?

3) If Vader does not know Luke is on Tatooine, as implied by (2), then how does Luke, Owen, Beru, and Obi Wan get there in the first place, and why is Tatooine a good hiding place?

Right, it just can't be rectified. It could've... there could've been a way, but it can't be now. Much too late.

4) Suppose Vader has never heard of Tatooine in his life, and would have no idea that his son is there. Then why did Owen say, on Tatooine, that Anakin should "never have left here".


Right, which it is in my opinion that Vader should've been Vader... a name, a separate person, and Anakin another. It's the only way to have made it work.

5) Does Vader even know that he has a son? If not, how does he find out?

Der Force. No, seriously, it is a problem.

6) What exactly is Vader's relationship with Owen and Beru? Presumably at least one of them is related either to Vader or to Luke's mother.

7) Why does Vader not know that Leia is his daughter? This is especially apt since Vader tortures Leia in ANH! The best explanation is that he isn't his daughter (ie she is Luke's half-sister).

Which is why it's my opinion that Leia should've never been Luke's sister. Note that Yoda says "there is another," but that doesn't mean there was "another" Skywalker. It could've meant there is another who is a potential Jedi, which still could've been Leia, or just an entirely different character, or it could've been another Skywalker, but just not Leia. It could've just been like Lucas had originally loosely planned---Luke's mother took his sister to the far end of the galaxy to hide her from the evil Emperor. That makes a whole of sense and really could've been a great basis for another movie after ROTJ.


8) And who was Luke's and Leia's mother anyway? Why does she fall in love with a psycopath?

Again, in my opinion, it should've been the real Anakin Skywalker, the one that Obi-Wan mentioned before he was turned into a bald-faced liar. Anakin was a handsome and dashing hero (and a powerful Jedi as Yoda claimed) during the clone wars, he had two children, Vader was jealous and easily manipulated by the Emperor and killed his best friend. The Emperor saw the children as threats and ordered them to be destroyed. Obi-Wan was given one child (and not told about the other) while Lady Skywalker disappeared with the other. Maybe Vader had a child of his own; a son, and it was killed. Vader may somehow blame Obi-Wan for it.

Maybe Vader had one child, and Anakin had one child, and to protect her child, Lady Skywalker switched the children, giving the one she claims to be Luke to Obi-Wan to hide when it's actually the son of Vader. Meanwhile, Lady Skywalker hides on Alderaan with the real child, giving her to the Organa's, but staying close. Lady Skywalker dies when Leia is two or three.

9) How can Anakin be such a "good friend" and a all around good Jedi and turn to the darkside? Anakin has to be effective as a Jedi to be plausible as Vader later on (if only Lucas had realized this!). So why the turn to the Dark Side? Maybe Obi Wan really screwed things up, and maybe that is why hung around Luke long enough to lie to him. Maybe the "dark side" isn't necessarily evil the way its implied in the OT. Maybe Anakin was caught in an impossible situation of some sort.

Yeah. It's all not working anymore. Even the old movies.


This is really a tall order, and by answering these questions, Lucas is already halfway to an interesting set of movies. How he actually answers them is another matter. Essentially Anakin Skywalker is from Tatooine, becomes a fairly pathetic jedi, is tricked by Palpatine into going over to the Dark Side, and then is cut down literally by Obi-Wan, who then hides his son on Tatooine. I think this is pretty disappointing.

Agreed.


If I were to make dialogue changes to the ROTJ to make it fit to the previous two movies better, I'd do this:

NOTE: PUT THE PREQUELS COMPLETELY OUT OF YOUR MIND!!!!!

In the beginning, I'd have it stated that Vader is upset that the Emperor called off his search for Skywalker (after all, it would've been incredibly easy for Vader to wait for Luke at Tatooine because he KNOWS that Luke and crew would come to Han's rescue).

I'd change Yoda's dialogue. First, he'd feel a bit guilty about burdening Luke with the responsibility of training future Jedi. He would compliment Luke on learning so much in so little time. Next, Luke would not ask Yoda if Vader's really his father. In fact, I never thought Yoda should've been caught in the middle of that discussion. Yoda's just there to train Luke. This question should've saved for Obi-Wan. Yoda would also encourage Luke not rush to face the Emperor or Vader; not because it might draw him to the darkside, but because Luke is their last hope (at this point) they need him to live long enough to find and train other Jedi, and that by allowing time to pass, and to reflect on Yoda's training and instruction, Luke would only grow more powerful so he can eventually be stronger and more powerful to face the Emperor.

(As a note, I would re-edit ROTJ so that the scenes with Yoda come before Luke goes to Tatooine. That way, it would appear that Luke was more prepared for the rescue, and actually spent some time with Yoda).

Yoda then would explain that the Force has sustained Yoda only long enough to complete Luke's training, and he must pass on and merge with the Force (this is important for later on).

I'd change Obi-Wan's dialogue. No "certain point of view" crap. Here, Obi-Wan would tell Luke that he believed Luke was the son of Skywalker, especially considering that Luke was brought to him by Lady Skywalker (Obi-Wan would not know about the switch; and Yoda may have known), and Obi-Wan would say that the dark side can hide the truth... which makes sense. The good side of the Force should reveal and explore truth while Dark side should hide it, shouldn't it?

Then Luke wonders if he's the son of Vader, and then where is the real child of Skywalker. Obi-Wan could respond by saying that the child of Skywalker is safely annonymous, but like moths to a flame, Jedi are drawn to one another. Luke will eventually find him/her. I would also have Obi-Wan say that his time is up as well, and that he will merge with the Force.

Later, during the speeder chase, Luke suddenly realizes that Leia is the child of Skywalker. It suddenly becomes very important that he finds her.

When Luke asks Leia about her mother, we edit out out the whole brother sister thing, and Luke can still reveal to her that he is the son of Vader, and she still has the same reaction, but then he reveals to her that she is the child of Skywalker. She can still have the same reaction. It's too much for her to bear. Han can still comfort her, etc.

When Luke confronts Vader, the dialogue will still be easy to fix. It could go something like this:

"I know.... father."
"So you have finally accepted the truth."
"I have accepted the truth that you were once a Jedi Knight, a good man."
"That was a different time. A different life."
"It is your true self. You have only forgotten. I know there is good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. That's why you can't destroy me. That's why you won't take me to your Emperor now."

Easy to fix.
(And it still works with the line Luke says later, "I'm a Jedi... like my father before me.")

If we wanted to, we can change a little dialogue when the Emperor talks to Vader about Luke coming to him, but not really.

The next dialogue change would be when Luke's under the platform and Vader taunts him. Instead of saying that he knows Leia is his sister, he'll know that she is Skywalker, and then he could possibly turn her, and as before Luke freaks out.

At the end, there would be no ghosts. I would let people decide on their own if Vader went to "Jedi Heaven" or not.

This post has been edited by CowboyCurtis: 04 April 2006 - 11:14 PM

[Despondent]

Another fine post, Cowboy Curtis. I could hear Alec Guiness doing the voice over.
And you aced another of my pet peeves.

Usually I don't have the patience or courtesy to follow through on What if scenarios. It's ruined forever and that is that, far as I'm concerned. But that was well thought out and satisfying.

Now if you could alter the teddy bears, that would be Something.

--

This is really a tall order, and by answering these questions, Lucas is already halfway to an interesting set of movies. How he actually answers them is another matter. Essentially Anakin Skywalker is from Tatooine, becomes a fairly pathetic jedi, is tricked by Palpatine into going over to the Dark Side, and then is cut down literally by Obi-Wan, who then hides his son on Tatooine. I think this is pretty disappointing. -Casual Fan

[CowboyCurtis]

Another fine post, Cowboy Curtis. I could hear Alec Guiness doing the voice over.
And you aced another of my pet peeves.

Thanks, Despondent.

Usually I don't have the patience or courtesy to follow through on What if scenarios. It's ruined forever and that is that, far as I'm concerned. But that was well thought out and satisfying.

Yeah, I'm a big time what-iffer, but it doesn't pay to be that way. Star Wars is ruined forever, and not anything can be done about it. I'm glad you liked my ideas, though.

Now if you could alter the teddy bears, that would be Something.

Well, with CGI getting inevitably better and better, and some industrious Star Wars fan... they may just get replaced with wookies one day.

[Casual Fan]

I happen to be one for "what ifs", even if
Star Wars
was ruined. Its interesting to speculate why Lucas made the prequels like he did, and whether there were other ways to unravel the knots made by the Vader being Luke's father direction the OT took.

Agreed in ROTJ that it should have been made clear in the conversation between Luke and Yoda, that Luke had gone to Dagobah before trying to rescue Han. Some comment by Yoda that he sees that Luke rescued his friend, or something. Also, the force ghost thing is way overused in both ROTJ and ESB. I think the explanation of Vader's origins has to come from Yoda.

Vader can be the father of Luke (it would have been interesting if it turned out Vader was lying in ROTJ, but the momentum from ESB was clearly flowing the other way). However, the explanation the audience needed was why Obi Wan lied. We got a very weak explanation. I think it would have been better, in the OT context, that Obi Wan did not know that Vader was Anakin Skywalker, or at least the father of Luke, so in ANH he told Luke exactly what he believed to be true. So I disagree with Cowboy Curtis, its better if Yoda set Luke straight.

Why doesn't Obi Wan know? Anakin goes to face the Emperor (this is purely as explained in the OT), and gets turned to the Dark Side. The Emperor and Vader put out afterwards that Vader killed Anakin, implying that Vader was never a jedi and was always trained as a Sith. Vader first appears after Anakin is "killed". So as far as Obi Wan is concerned, Vader killed Anakin. He has already been given charge of Luke. Taking Luke to Tatooine is appropriate because he has no idea Vader doesn't have any connection to the place (why Vader doesn't look for Luke can wait until the prequels). So how does Yoda know? Through being Yoda. Everything doesn't have to be explained. Yoda doesn't want Luke to get near Vader or the Emperor, at least not for a good while, given what happened to his father.

Again, the only change in Lucas' vision is Yoda explaining that Obi Wan didn't know the full story. No need to get into the details, unless prequels are made. One of the more annoying parts of ROTJ doesn't happen. Then the prequels flow better because you can rely on Obi Wan's OT narrative more. The only really tough thing to deal with is why Vader and the Emperor don't come looking for Luke.

And Leia being Luke's sister never bothered me. In fact, it has a nice payoff when it leads Luke to almost kill his father!

Oh, and if redoing the prequels, the Emperor takes over first, killing most but not all of the jedi, then Yoda sends Anakin on a last-ditch mission to kill the Emperor (similar to what Yoda attempted in the actual prequels). Anakin fails, but the Emperor saves his life and convinces him to turn to the Dark Side, to bring an end to the civil war. Anakin becomes Vader, the alternative effectively being suicide, then kills nearly all of the remaining Jedi.

Its simple, Lucas can still do his Anakin as James Dean thing, still bring in the Gungans and dress his actresses in wacky outfits and the rest, but you actually have the makings of a coherent story and maintain continuity with the OT.

This post has been edited by Casual Fan: 06 April 2006 - 12:07 AM

[jariten]

the Emperor takes over first, killing most but not all of the jedi, then Yoda sends Anakin on a last-ditch mission to kill the Emperor (similar to what Yoda attempted in the actual prequels). Anakin fails, but the Emperor saves his life and convinces him to turn to the Dark Side, to bring an end to the civil war. Anakin becomes Vader, the alternative effectively being suicide, then kills nearly all of the remaining Jedi.

I don't see how this would work at all.