[Private Zod]

I enjoyed this film alot, but there was one thing that annoyed me. I always envisioned the climatic battle between Obi Wan and Anakin similar to what actually transpired. However, I always thought it would end with ObiWan slashing Anaking, and Anakin falling into lava with ObiWan certain that he died. Anakin, being as powerful in the force as he was, somehow pulls himself out and is then rescued by the Emperor.

ObiWan leaving Anakin them maimed, but not dead, in the actual film was rather weak. If you think about it, had ObiWan done the right thing and finish him off, he probably could have saved the galaxy 20 years of suffering. And it is not like ObiWan never knew Anakin survived. A few months after he gets on tatooine he has to hear of the Emperor's new right hand man, vader, who is kicking ass and taking names across the galaxy.

ObiWan had enough guilt on his mind the next 20 years in the desert without also knowing that Vader was still alive and he had the chance to finish him off right in front of him. If he fell into the lava, at least he could reasonably assume he was done only to realize later that he actually survived the fall. "What teh hell else could I do? I cut off his limbs and he fell into molten lava! How the hell would I know he'd live through that?!"

This post has been edited by Private Zod: 04 July 2005 - 08:48 AM

[julie123]

ObiWan had enough guilt on his mind the next 20 years in the desert without also knowing that Vader was still alive and he had the chance to finish him off right in front of him.  If he fell into the lava, at least he could reasonably assume he was done only to realize later that he actually survived the fall.  "What teh hell else could I do?  I cut off his limbs and he fell into molten lava!  How the hell would I know he'd live through that?!"

[

Why the hell should Obi-Wan feel guilt for 20 days let alone 20 years? He didn't want to train Anakin but was black mailed into it by his dying master. He tried to show the hormonally challenged one all he knew about the Jedi Order but was faced by a cocky punk who thought he knew it all and refused to be trained. In ROTS he is the only Jedi who constantly sticks up for Anakin and how is he thanked - why he gets to fight a duel over a lava pitt because Yoda decided he was needed elsewhere!!! Obi-Wan told Yoda he couldn't kill Anakin before the lava fight and it proved true, if you are going to blame anyone for Vader's existence it should be Yoda.

I hated that line in ROTJ about how Vader's fall was Ben's fault and I hate it even more now. For f****s sake, let the Chosen One take some responsibility for his own fall to the darkside and stop off loading it on to Obi-Wan. It's long over due.

[Private Zod]

You are missing my point with the post. ObiWan should not be blamed for Anakin's fall, however, my issue was with the actual way things transpired in the film. Had Anakin "fall into the lava" like we all though would happen, most people would logically assume he would be incinerated. That would leave no doubt in obiWan's mind.

Of course ObiWan has guilt over the fall, he even said so during the duel "I have failed you ANakin!" he said repeatedly towards the end of the fight. Should he? Of course not, but that is besides the point.

I forgot to post this initially, but one of teh original storyboards I saw had Anakin and Obi dueling over a bridge and ObiWan takes out Anakin below the knees and falls into a lavapit. Cool stuff, probably was not done because it would not give ObiWan his monologue at the end. However, had they done this ObiWan would have felt confident in knowing Anakin was finished.

Instead, while Anakin was limbless and burnt, he was still alive when ObiWan left. Wouldn't you think he regretted not finishing him off once he heard vader was resurrected and storming through teh galaxy? This is my point.

[julie123]

Quote

You are missing my point with the post. ObiWan should not be blamed for Anakin's fall, however, my issue was with the actual way things transpired in the film. Had Anakin "fall into the lava" like we all though would happen, most people would logically assume he would be incinerated. That would leave no doubt in obiWan's mind.

Of course ObiWan has guilt over the fall, he even said so during the duel "I have failed you ANakin!" he said repeatedly towards the end of the fight. Should he? Of course not, but that is besides the point. [/QUOTE]

Okay I am not going to get into the but you are also missing my point thing here because it would appear we are saying the same thing. However, my post was also about how pissed off I am that everything about Vader in the OT is Ben's fault.

Obi-Wan gets to say that he failed Anakin in ROTS because Lucas wanted to square up the question of Ben's fault and blame because prior to this crappy line, Obi-Wan has done nothing but be a good friend and supporter of Anakin when NONE of the other Jedi have believed in him.

Just WHEN does Anakin/Vader get to accept or even take any blame for his own downfall? I am willing to lay a bet it will be when Lucas stops blaming those 20 Century Fox executives for his film being out of order - never

[Darth Player]

I think its safe to say that Obi Wan was both physically and mentally zapped after the duel, and won because of Anakin/Vader's arrogance in jumping. Sure, it would have made more sense if he took Vader with him, Padme would have lived, and they could turn him to confront and destroy Palpatine, but certain events were set in stone to preclude that. Obi Wan didn't want to kill Anakin, as he told Yoda, and seeing the damage Anakin/Vader sustained, its tough to fault him for thinking he wasn't finished off for good or close to it.

I think the angle in which the scene is filmed didn't help matters for one thing, and yes, its a major logical hole that Obi Wan didn't settle things once and for all with Anakin/Vader. Ther's little point in splitting the twins up and protecting Luke. If Obi Wan couldn't finish off Anakin/Vader when he missed three limbs and was burned, what makes him think he could hold him off when he's recouperated?

It begs the question as to whether there's something in the Master/Padwan relationship that makes it tough to eliminate an apprentice, or more likely, Anakin's status as "the Chosen One" has something to do with the hesitation. More likely its because Obi Wan wanted to be a Jedi in the classic sense, a preserver of peace and order in the galaxy, a mediator, and he just isn't a killer like Anakin chose to be.

In any event, the poor writing and lack of foresight leads to many frustrations for someone with some semblence of intelligence.

[Private Zod]

I agree with both posts.

My one question is this:

Would have it been better if Anakin fell into the lava and was logically thought to be dead, or the way it happened where there would have been less certainty that he died from his injuries? All the points you both made were dead on, my whole arguement was that Lucas should have had Anakin submerged in lava instead of catching on fire.

[Kelethor]

This is the best way to have done it.

Lets picture the other way... Anakin falls in some chasm of lava, Obi-Wan suspects he is dead. Obi-Wan shrugs and walks off.

The way Lucas did it was much better, a very emotinal scene, as Anakin burst into flames and is crying out for help, Obi-Wan cant even look and leaves Anakin to die.

[Darth Player]

Falling into the lava would have been too implausable, since when Vader got out, it would be reallyhard to believe since lava combusts things notsomuch as burns them. Can't fault Obi Wan from walking away, he thought the deed was done, even if he realized that Vader was alive he couldn't have imagined the metamorphasis into Vader. Maybe he sensed that what happened happened and there was little he could do now to turn the tide to take out the Empire. He had to leave and get set up in post-Republic life, in exile no less. In creating Vader the way he is, the Emperor created the fusion of droid/human.

[julie123]

Falling into the lava would have been too implausable, since when Vader got out, it would be reallyhard to believe since lava combusts things notsomuch as burns them. Can't fault Obi Wan from walking away, he thought the deed was done, even if he realized that Vader was alive he couldn't have imagined the metamorphasis into Vader. Maybe he sensed that what happened happened and there was little he could do now to turn the tide to take out the Empire. He had to leave and get set up in post-Republic life, in exile no less. In creating Vader the way he is, the Emperor created the fusion of droid/human.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I though General Grevious was the fusion of droid/human. You could even argue that C3PO is because he seems to have an awful lot of human emotions.

[Darth Player]

I though General Grevious was the fusion of droid/human.  You could even argue that C3PO is because he seems to have an awful lot of human emotions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you want to split hairs, then Vader ends the development of that dynamic. Grievous has his limitations and he's dead at the end of ROTS, and C-3PO isn't a fighter the Emperor can count on. Palpatine has the ability to dispatch a fallen Jedi/Sith anywhere and everywhere he needs him to go, like a machine. Grievous may have been trained in the Jedi arts, but he ultimately went down in no time flat, maybe he was the test bed for a lot of stuff used on Vader, helps explain why the room was set up ready to make Vader into the form we know from the OT, almost like the Emperor envisioned the whle thing from the start.

[Hari Seldon]

I agree with both posts. 

My one question is this:

Would have it been better if Anakin fell into the lava and was logically thought to be dead, or the way it happened where there would have been less certainty that he died from his injuries?  All the points you both made were dead on, my whole arguement was that Lucas should have had Anakin submerged in lava instead of catching on fire.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In all truth, I would be more than glad to see that whiny youngling-killer prick fall and be submerged in an ocean of lava.

But then it would seem really far-fetched for the Emperor to manage to rescue him... even with the daaark force healing powers, or whatever, on his side.

Being so, I was glad to see him burn a little. Kshhh. Medium rare.

This post has been edited by Hari Seldon: 05 July 2005 - 12:07 PM

[Casual Fan]

Folks, I'm going to defend Lucas on this one. Obi-Wan is a Jedi. Jedi don't kill their apprentices (or their masters, for that matter). Only Sith kill their apprentices.

If Obi Wan finishes off Vader, guess who Palpatine's new apprentice will eventually be, once the Emperor tracks him down? Taking Anakin with him is not an option either because the Emperor's shuttle is arriving.

The problem with this scene is nothing in the scene itself, its that Anakin/ Vader and Obi Wan just had spent the last few minuts surfing on the lava, preceded by Anakin's speech about "unlimited powah!" and the whole Palapatine - Yoda duel, etc. In other words, there is so much silliness and inconsistency in the prequels that you start to see silliness and inconsistency everywhere. Obi Wan's actions in walking awaly would have "worked" if they had come at the end of a movie where we had gotten a good sense of who the Jedi were, and who the Sith were, and how we could expect them to behave, and also what drove Obi Wan's friendship with Anakin and why the latter was so important to the Jedi.

[Lord Aquaman]

Wouldn't the noxious fumes of the volcano have killed both of them after about 45 minutes or so into the duel?

[Hari Seldon]

Wouldn't the noxious fumes of the volcano have killed both of them after about 45 minutes or so into the duel?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, they both had their "Jedi Nostrils - tm" right in place when the fight starts. Obviously, that's something they do offscreen.