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The Darth Plaguis problem not only the name is bad...

#1 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 04 July 2005 - 12:13 AM

Ok, Darth Bubonis. He apparently earned that name by keeping people alive and healthy. Or something.....

Why would a Sith lord want to keep anyone alive? The answer is for their own benefit of course. Palpatine and Vader are the only Sith lords we meet in official SW canon. The Sith in KOTOR are a little more fleshed out but basically fit to Palps and Vader's image.

Can anyone imagine Vader saying "No admiral Motti, you are too dear a friend to die, I will preserve your life." Well, maybe in the holiday special, but not likely.

And yet we're supposed to imagine that the fellow who taught Palpatine was a kindly old Sith who liked to keep his friends from dying? Bullshit! Who was the guy, Mister Magoo? Why would someone like that hang around Palpatine? Why would someone like that be a Sith Lord at all? That sounds more like a Jedi than anything. What Sith Lord in their right mind teaches their apprentice everything they know? The Sith NEVER do that. The apprentice is responsible for learning more than his master on his own. Once that's done he kills his master. If his master kills him than the master takes on another apprentice. This is not a law, it's not really common knowledge, it's simply how the Sith operate.

The Sith master is prideful, and believes that his apprentice would never be foolish enough to rise against him. He also wishes to use his apprentice as a tool. That's just the way of the Sith.

But nowhere does the idea of preserving life enter into Sith philosophy. If they wanted to make us hate Palpatine they should have had Plagueis as a Jedi master, or a fallen Jedi. That would make sense. Plaguis was, by definition, NOT a Sith.

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#2 User is offline   DarthTherion Icon

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Posted 04 July 2005 - 02:18 AM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jul 4 2005, 01:13 AM)
Why would a Sith lord want to keep anyone alive? The answer is for their own benefit of course.


You answered your own question.

Why does Vader want to keep Padme alive? For his own benefit -- though he doesn't consciously admit to that. Loving someone doesn't disqualify you from being a Sith...the *kind* of love is what's important.


"Can that be Love, that drinks another as a sponge drinks water?"
--William Blake
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Posted 04 July 2005 - 02:47 AM

I think Palpatine told Anakin that information with a little spin to make the Sith look like they weren't exactly evil. Anakin was still to be persuaded to be evil, and Palpatine was disguising the Sith as merely a different path, that there was no good and evil, only viewpoints. They had this big scene with Anakin and Obi-wan near the end that kind of pointed this out.

Besides, I don't think knowing these abilities gives us any insight on the good or evil a person possesses. It may even be that the ability to create life and keep someone from dying might be a natural progression for the Dark Side, given Yoda's comments on life and the Force. It also might be the equivalent of the Jedi learning to be one with the Force and yet still retain their individuality in the afterlife, whereas the Sith would avoid death and the afterlife, to remain forever disconnected from the Force.
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#4 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 04 July 2005 - 11:58 AM

hmmm interesting points, I hadn't thought of it that way, though I still have to disagree with his name.

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#5 User is offline   showmethemoney Icon

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Posted 04 July 2005 - 11:59 AM

QUOTE
I think Palpatine told Anakin that information with a little spin to make the Sith look like they weren't exactly evil.  Anakin was still to be persuaded to be evil, and Palpatine was disguising the Sith as merely a different path, that there was no good and evil, only viewpoints.  They had this big scene with Anakin and Obi-wan near the end that kind of pointed this out.


Palp- Anakin, siths are not thaat evil...
Anakin- But what about my friend, Qui-jon? a sith killed him...
Palp- ups! do you remember that?
Anakin- And Count Dooku cut my hand!
Palp- well... Ididn't say siths are saints...
Anakin- And there is a Sith lord looking to destroy the Republic...
Palp- Then listen carefully: Unliimited powaaahhh, eh?


QUOTE
Besides, I don't think knowing these abilities gives us any insight on the good or evil a person possesses.  It may even be that the ability to create life and keep someone from dying might be a natural progression for the Dark Side, given Yoda's comments on life and the Force.  It also might be the equivalent of the Jedi learning to be one with the Force and yet still retain their individuality in the afterlife, whereas the Sith would avoid death and the afterlife, to remain forever disconnected from the Force.


Ok, so Yoda says that death is a natural thing then the jedis just let everybody die?
I think that to keep people from dying is a great skill for a jedi as for a sith!
Nobody want to die or to loose a frien or a good ally! Or are the jedis some kind of suicidal sect? (the way they let the sith act, maybe they are)
That afterlife think is crap! What is the point to remain lake a phamtom? I know, so you don't miss the Ewok's musical shows in Endor...

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#6 User is offline   julie123 Icon

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Posted 04 July 2005 - 12:04 PM

[quote=J m HofMarN,Jul 4 2005, 05:13 AM]
Ok, Darth Bubonis. He apparently earned that name by keeping people alive and healthy. Or something.....

Why would a Sith lord want to keep anyone alive? The answer is for their own benefit of course. Palpatine and Vader are the only Sith lords we meet in official SW canon. The Sith in KOTOR are a little more fleshed out but basically fit to Palps and Vader's image.

Can anyone imagine Vader saying "No admiral Motti, you are too dear a friend to die, I will preserve your life." Well, maybe in the holiday special, but not likely.

And yet we're supposed to imagine that the fellow who taught Palpatine was a kindly old Sith who liked to keep his friends from dying? Bullshit! Who was the guy, Mister Magoo? Why would someone like that hang around Palpatine? Why would someone like that be a Sith Lord at all? That sounds more like a Jedi than anything. What Sith Lord in their right mind teaches their apprentice everything they know? The Sith NEVER do that. The apprentice is responsible for learning more than his master on his own. Once that's done he kills his master. If his master kills him than the master takes on another apprentice. This is not a law, it's not really common knowledge, it's simply how the Sith operate.

The Sith master is prideful, and believes that his apprentice would never be foolish enough to rise against him. He also wishes to use his apprentice as a tool. That's just the way of the Sith.

But nowhere does the idea of preserving life enter into Sith philosophy. If they wanted to make us hate Palpatine they should have had Plagueis as a Jedi master, or a fallen Jedi. That would make sense. Plaguis was, by definition, NOT a Sith.


Has anyone given any thought at all to the fact that Palpatine just might have been making it up re Darth Frankenstein, sorry Plageious? Palpatine is so obviously a stage villain it is untrue. What does a stage villain do to get what he wants - why he tells the person/love interest whatever, exactly what they want to hear. Anakin is terrified Padme will die in childbirth, and hey presto Palpatine knows someone who can stop death. Well what da you know???!!!

Consider that Lucas is not giving us a very short history in Sith folklore here re Mr Nasty Plague and is just actually setting up Anakin for a fall and there is no other agenda here but that. For why else would Anakin have believed that a person who had died in their sleep could show him how to cheat death?

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Posted 04 July 2005 - 01:51 PM

QUOTE (showmethemoney @ Jul 4 2005, 11:59 AM)
Palp- Anakin,  siths are not thaat evil...
Anakin- But what about my friend, Qui-jon? a sith killed him...
Palp- ups! do you remember that?
Anakin- And Count Dooku cut my hand! 
Palp- well... Ididn't say siths are saints...
Anakin- And there is a Sith lord looking to destroy the Republic...
Palp- Then listen carefully: Unliimited powaaahhh, eh?


You have to remember that the Jedi are against the Sith, so that doesn't necessarily mean that just because Sith are against the Jedi that the Sith are evil. Palpatine made the Jedi look evil to Anakin, so it all depends on the viewpoint, according to Palpatine's spin. There are numerous examples of this in the PT, such as the Seperatist movement and Count Dooku.
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Posted 04 July 2005 - 08:53 PM

the jedis are buddists who harness the power of taoism.

whereas the sith are naturalists who harness the power of taoism.

its just a philosophical difference.
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#9 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 04 July 2005 - 10:46 PM

I agree that Anakin believing the Sith aren't evil just because Palpatine tells him so.

The story, I think, is being looked at in two ways and they both reflect poorly on Lucas.

One is that Palpatine was truthful and Plagueis was a really nice guy, which means that Palpatines backstory dosnt make sense if he was trained by a kind old Sith lord.

The other is that Palpatine was lying, in which case Lucas is an asshole. You can have characters lie in a mystery film, or in a book, because we have time and we have the desire to figure out if they're lying. But in a film like ROTS we have very limited time for backstory since there's so much CGI so we have to soak up what we can get. Lucas has no business wasting time on half assed lies and half assed intrigue because he dosnt know how to pull it off and it just causes confusing situations, such as this one.

A good story teller would have used that scene to give us a clear window into Palpatine's past and his motivations. Lucas chose to have him spout a shoddy legend that might or might not be a lie anyhow.

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#10 User is offline   showmethemoney Icon

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Posted 04 July 2005 - 11:00 PM

Agree. Clear like crystal
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Posted 04 July 2005 - 11:12 PM

QUOTE
Can anyone imagine Vader saying "No admiral Motti, you are too dear a friend to die, I will preserve your life." Well, maybe in the holiday special, but not likely.


LOL!

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#12 User is offline   julie123 Icon

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 12:57 PM

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QUOTE (yourUsername @ Jul 4 2005, 06:51 PM)

You have to remember that the Jedi are against the Sith, so that doesn't necessarily mean that just because Sith are against the Jedi that the Sith are evil.  Palpatine made the Jedi look evil to Anakin, so it all depends on the viewpoint, according to Palpatine's spin.  There are numerous examples of this in the PT, such as the Seperatist movement and Count Dooku.



Hmm. Palpatine made the Sith look evil to Anakin because he TOLD him they were evil. He didn't have any kind of concrete examples to show him or anything. Call me picky but if I had trained with an organisation for 12-13 years I think I would be grounded enough to know if that organisation was evil or not and therefore be able to make my own mind up about the organisation in question and not need an outsider to tell me about them.

Also, your point is slightly redundant because we already KNOW the Sith are evil because they are the ones who have killed billions of people etc in the OT. The problem with prequels are that when questions of viewpoints are bought up, they are already redundant.
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#13 User is offline   yourUsername Icon

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 06:45 PM

QUOTE (julie123 @ Jul 5 2005, 12:57 PM)
Hmm.  Palpatine made the Sith look evil to Anakin because he TOLD him they were evil.  He didn't have any kind of concrete examples to show him or anything.  Call me picky but if I had trained with an organisation for 12-13 years I think I would be grounded enough to know if that organisation was evil or not and therefore be able to make my own mind up about the organisation in question and not need an outsider to tell me about them.

Also, your point is slightly redundant because we already KNOW the Sith are evil because they are the ones who have killed billions of people etc in the OT.  The problem with prequels are that when questions of viewpoints are bought up, they are already redundant.



Anakin WANTED to believe that the Sith weren't evil. That way he could learn to keep people alive and gain access to more people. Passion will blind people, let people believe in things that an outsider would be able to see objectively (supposedly).

It doesn't matter if the point is redundant to you or me, it isn't redundant to Anakin. I think Lucas wanted to show how the Sith manipulated things, that evil ambitions are disguised as good intentions, and portray the prevalent attitude that we tend to not believe in good or evil anymore, only excuses and viewpoints, which lets people slip into irresponsibility.

This post has been edited by yourUsername: 05 July 2005 - 06:46 PM

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#14 User is offline   showmethemoney Icon

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 10:20 PM

QUOTE (yourUsername @ Jul 5 2005, 08:45 PM)
Passion will blind people, let people believe in things that an outsider would be able to see objectively (supposedly).


I agree, Passion (defending that scene) blinds YOU... whistling.gif
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#15 User is offline   julie123 Icon

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Posted 06 July 2005 - 08:45 AM

QUOTE (yourUsername @ Jul 5 2005, 11:45 PM)
Anakin WANTED to believe that the Sith weren't evil.  That way he could learn to keep people alive and gain access to more people.  Passion will blind people, let people believe in things that an outsider would be able to see objectively (supposedly).

It doesn't matter if the point is redundant to you or me, it isn't redundant to Anakin.  I think Lucas wanted to show how the Sith manipulated things, that evil ambitions are disguised as good intentions, and portray the prevalent attitude that we tend to not believe in good or evil anymore, only excuses and viewpoints, which lets people slip into irresponsibility.



Someone lend Anakin (or showmethemoney) some glasses he's obviously short sighted.
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