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Storm's Analysis of Chef's Reasons Reasons 25-40

#1 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 11:28 PM

Howdy folks. I've decided to come back and finish up these counter arguments. I wanted to apologize for the lameness of my counters to reasons 21-25. I'm going to have to agree with Chef on reasons 22 and 23.

I saw the movie again on the weekend, and every scene between Anakin and Padme just seems forced and awkward. I think Natalie Portman is mostly in part to blame. She just doesn't seem to care about what she is saying. There is no heart from her.

As for reason 23 (Big Pregnant Belly), Anakin probably should have reacted a little bit sooner. I noticed there is a lot of conversation before Padme finally brings up the news of the pregnancy.

Anyhow, on with the analysis.

26. Anakin's Hissy Fit
I think Anakin's reply of "What?" would have been sufficient. "This is outrageous" and "It's unfair" was a reminder of the immature teenage Anakin in AOTC. For the majority of the movie, I was able to believe Anakin had matured from the whiny teen we previously saw. Those two lines just didn't seem to fit his character in ROTS.

I think the only reason the council tolerates his attitude is because "they need him, more than Anakin knows". Ultimately, Anakin could have prevented the Jedi from being slaughtered.

Even his blatant disregard for the Jedi dress code of silly brown robes does not tip them off to anything being amiss.
The one blue Jedi chick, Aayla, is able to dress pretty skimpy and the council does not seem to have a problem with it.

27. The Jedi Are Idiots
The Jedi Council doesn't have much of a choice. It's not like they can ask Kit Fisto to accompany Palpatine to the movie theatre. They know something is strange about Palpatine, and since Anakin is the only Jedi that Palpatine trusts they have to take the risk. There is simply no other option for them.

28. Wookiee Relations
"Go, I will. Good relations with the Wookiees, I have."
I don't think the intent of the line was really to get some kind of reaction from the viewer. It seemed to me that since Yoda had good relations with the Wookies, it would be logical for him to go to Kashyyk. I don't know what else to say. It is such a non significant line.

29. The Jedi Code
I didn't know what the Jedi Code is, but I had assumed that part of it involved not spying on close friends for the benefit of the Jedi Council. Evidentally I was incorrect.

30. The Prophecy
I took it as a nod of agreement from Mace to Yoda. I would have to disagree about Mace being the second wisest Jedi of all time. To me, he seems like someone who just "plays everything by the book" and isn't really open to any creative thinking. Personally, I found Qui-Gon Ginn to be the wisest of all the Jedi, even wiser than Yoda (in the PT anyways). It makes sense that the ESB Yoda is the wisest simply because he had 20 years to think about all of the mistakes the Jedi made.

31. The Stupid Dumb Jedi Idiots
Okay, you can look at this from two different perspectives.

A. Balance to the Force involves having an equal amount of Jedi to Sith. Obviously the Jedi's would be idiots if they wanted this balance to occur. But it is quite clear that they don't understand what "balance" means.

B. I'm not sure who suggested this idea from this forum, but I really liked the following idea. In the PT, the force powers of the Jedi are weakening. Clearly there is an imbalance, since the Sith are much more powerful. It takes two Jedi to kill Darth Maul in TPM. Three Jedi are incapable of defeating Count Dooku in AOTC. Bringing balance to the force would restore more power to the light side of the Force. I think this is what the Jedi are striving for.

32. Palpatine's Dipshit Water Opera
On my first viewing, I thought it was some kind of sporting event. In fact, it reminded me exactly of Blitzball from Final Fantasy X.

33. The Tragedy of Darth Plagueis
It's a heart-warming Sith legend that brings back the popular question: why the hell do the Sith take apprentices?
If a person is truly that committed to being a Sith, then I think they would be willing to do anything to prevent the Sith from becoming extinct. This includes a master potentially being killed by their apprentice.

34. Midi-Chlorians
Although the choice of the word "Midi-Chlorians" didn't bother me that much, I do agree that saying "Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise that he could use the Force... to create... life." would have been a lot better. The concept of Midi-Chlorians is stupid though. I don't think you should be able to quantify something as mystical as the force. What I would like to know is if a Jedi can have their Midi-Chlorian count increase during training.

35. Unnatural
I'm going to steal another person's idea (Please make a post if you want credit) and say that the ability to create life or prevent death is unnatural. Yoda states that death is a natural part of life.

The ability to use force push or pull would probably seem pretty natural amongst the Jedi.

36. The Virgin Birth (or Anakin, I am your father.)
I made a post a long time ago which makes it quite clear that Plagueis has to be the "father" of Anakin. It makes no sense for Palpatine to have created Anakin. This is the sequence of events which I see.

A. Darth Plagueis takes on Darth Sidious as an apprentice, and teaches him everything he knows with the exception of how to create life or cheat death. Palpatine states later on in ROTS that "only one has learned how to cheat death", thus he didn't learn everything from Plagueis.

B. Darth Plagueis fears that Sidious will soon become strong enough to kill him, and decides to "create" Anakin in hope that he will become his future apprentice. The birth occurs on Tatooine, a place where Plagueis hopes Sidious will not observe Anakin to grow.

C. Anakin is born.

D. Sidious learns Plagueis created Anakin, and kills him. His reason for killing him is either that he felt he was powerful enough to do so or angry by the fact that Plagueis intended on eventually having a new apprentice.

E. Sidious becomes a Senator on Naboo, Anakin grows up on Tatooine. Sidious temporarily forgets about the creation of Anakin.

F. The events of Episode I occur, and Palpatine learns that some boy from Tatooine who was "conceived by the Force" and that this boy is to be trained as a Jedi.

G. Palpatine realizes who Anakin is and decides to take advantage of this situation. He befriends Anakin immediately after he arrives on Coruscant to train as a Jedi, and consistently watches over him and provides guidance. While the Jedi are continuously suspicious and distrusting of Anakin's abilities and future, Palpatine is always Anakin's number one supporter. In fact, Palpatine has been manipulating Anakin from the beginning, in hope that in a crucial moment Anakin will choose to support him rather than anyone else.

H. Palpatine wins! The Jedi are nearly brought to extinction and the Galatic Empire is established.

It wouldn't have made any sense for Palpatine to have created Anakin and then have abandoned him. Anakin easily could have been killed on Tatooine growing up as a slave. If Palpatine had created Anakin, I think he would have trained him in the ways of the Sith from birth. That way there would have been no possible way Anakin could have turned to good.

37. Wookiee Tarzan Yell
I always liked the Tarzan Yell as a child and I still do like it. The battle on Endor used to make me very sad when the Ewoks where losing, and the Tarzan yell from Chewbacca was in a way the turning point of the battle. It seems like something a Wookie would do.

38. Anakin and Obi-Wan Part
It was a good scene, and it had to be done. Was it too little too late? Possibly. However, it was better than nothing being done to show the friendship between the two. Otherwise the final duel would possess as much emotion as Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan dueling Darth Maul.

39. The Clones
You're supposed to remember the troops are clones of Jango Fett. This makes it a lot easier to accept that four clone troopers are capable of taking down one Jedi. I'm sure that four Jango Fett's could take on a single Jedi, especially since Jango was able to survive fighting Obi-Wan.

40. Padme's Laissez-Faire Attitude
I commend Padme for her calmness in the face of death. She even goes as far as to promise Anakin that she won't die in the face of death. Excellent. Padme is a woman of her word so there should really be nothing to worry about. She wouldn't lie to Anakin. Would she?
I think I mentioned this before, but if Padme had just accepted she was going to die it probably wouldn't have helped the situation. At least if she pretends it doesn't bother her than it will make Anakin feel a little better (although not much, since he eventually goes crazy anyways).
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#2 User is offline   showmethemoney Icon

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Posted 01 July 2005 - 12:53 AM

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Even his blatant disregard for the Jedi dress code of silly brown robes does not tip them off to anything being amiss.
The one blue Jedi chick, Aayla, is able to dress pretty skimpy and the council does not seem to have a problem with it.


How is this possible? She know that dressed like that we all gonna love her! And she can`t love nobody, she is a Jedi!

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27. The Jedi Are Idiots
The Jedi Council doesn't have much of a choice. It's not like they can ask Kit Fisto to accompany Palpatine to the movie theatre. They know something is strange about Palpatine, and since Anakin is the only Jedi that Palpatine trusts they have to take the risk. There is simply no other option for them.


There are infinite more intelligent options. You can investigate Palpy's hollogram's destinys in the last times, a more profund research about Sifo Dias and the origin of the clone army, etc. etc.

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28. Wookiee Relations
"Go, I will. Good relations with the Wookiees, I have."
I don't think the intent of the line was really to get some kind of reaction from the viewer. It seemed to me that since Yoda had good relations with the Wookies, it would be logical for him to go to Kashyyk. I don't know what else to say. It is such a non significant line.


Exactly. Another non significant line. I hate that!

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30. The Prophecy
I took it as a nod of agreement from Mace to Yoda. I would have to disagree about Mace being the second wisest Jedi of all time. To me, he seems like someone who just "plays everything by the book" and isn't really open to any creative thinking. Personally, I found Qui-Gon Ginn to be the wisest of all the Jedi, even wiser than Yoda (in the PT anyways). It makes sense that the ESB Yoda is the wisest simply because he had 20 years to think about all of the mistakes the Jedi made.


Lucas made Mace Windu look as the second wisest, He did!
And yoda needed another 20 years to be wiser? He is 800 years!


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31. The Stupid Dumb Jedi Idiots
Okay, you can look at this from two different perspectives.

B. I'm not sure who suggested this idea from this forum, but I really liked the following idea. In the PT, the force powers of the Jedi are weakening. Clearly there is an imbalance, since the Sith are much more powerful. It takes two Jedi to kill Darth Maul in TPM. Three Jedi are incapable of defeating Count Dooku in AOTC. Bringing balance to the force would restore more power to the light side of the Force. I think this is what the Jedi are striving for.


The Forum is a great place to suggest all the ideas lucas was not cappable to develop in the films. Episode III an half: The Forum strike back!

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33. The Tragedy of Darth Plagueis
It's a heart-warming Sith legend that brings back the popular question: why the hell do the Sith take apprentices?
If a person is truly that committed to being a Sith, then I think they would be willing to do anything to prevent the Sith from becoming extinct. This includes a master potentially being killed by their apprentice.


It's anybody is truly commited to be in a group or sect that kill their masters it deserve to die bocouse it's an stupid!

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34. Midi-Chlorians
Although the choice of the word "Midi-Chlorians" didn't bother me that much, I do agree that saying "Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise that he could use the Force... to create... life." would have been a lot better. The concept of Midi-Chlorians is stupid though. I don't think you should be able to quantify something as mystical as the force. What I would like to know is if a Jedi can have their Midi-Chlorian count increase during training.


Maybe that idiot midichlorians idea could have been saved some way, not by lucas, obviously...

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35. Unnatural
I'm going to steal another person's idea (Please make a post if you want credit) and say that the ability to create life or prevent death is unnatural. Yoda states that death is a natural part of life
.

Thank god yoda said that! then why is he still alive after 800 years? It's so unnatural!

Quote

The ability to use force push or pull would probably seem pretty natural amongst the Jedi.


And kill children is pretty natural betwen serial killers, so? Anakin was just letting nature go?

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36. The Virgin Birth (or Anakin, I am your father.)
I made a post a long time ago which makes it quite clear that Plagueis has to be the "father" of Anakin. It makes no sense for Palpatine to have created Anakin. This is the sequence of events which I see.

A. Darth Plagueis takes on Darth Sidious as an apprentice, and teaches him everything he knows with the exception of how to create life or cheat death. Palpatine states later on in ROTS that "only one has learned how to cheat death", thus he didn't learn everything from Plagueis.

B. Darth Plagueis fears that Sidious will soon become strong enough to kill him, and decides to "create" Anakin in hope that he will become his future apprentice. The birth occurs on Tatooine, a place where Plagueis hopes Sidious will not observe Anakin to grow.

C. Anakin is born.

D. Sidious learns Plagueis created Anakin, and kills him. His reason for killing him is either that he felt he was powerful enough to do so or angry by the fact that Plagueis intended on eventually having a new apprentice.

E. Sidious becomes a Senator on Naboo, Anakin grows up on Tatooine. Sidious temporarily forgets about the creation of Anakin.

F. The events of Episode I occur, and Palpatine learns that some boy from Tatooine who was "conceived by the Force" and that this boy is to be trained as a Jedi.

G. Palpatine realizes who Anakin is and decides to take advantage of this situation. He befriends Anakin immediately after he arrives on Coruscant to train as a Jedi, and consistently watches over him and provides guidance. While the Jedi are continuously suspicious and distrusting of Anakin's abilities and future, Palpatine is always Anakin's number one supporter. In fact, Palpatine has been manipulating Anakin from the beginning, in hope that in a crucial moment Anakin will choose to support him rather than anyone else.

H. Palpatine wins! The Jedi are nearly brought to extinction and the Galatic Empire is established.

It wouldn't have made any sense for Palpatine to have created Anakin and then have abandoned him. Anakin easily could have been killed on Tatooine growing up as a slave. If Palpatine had created Anakin, I think he would have trained him in the ways of the Sith from birth. That way there would have been no possible way Anakin could have turned to good.


Don't give lucas ideas for a new prequel! Episode 0: Born of the Siths!

38. Anakin and Obi-Wan Part
It was a good scene, and it had to be done. Was it too little too late? Possibly. However, it was better than nothing being done to show the friendship between the two. Otherwise the final duel would possess as much emotion as Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan dueling Darth Maul.

I prefer nothing. And i mean nothing: NO PREQUELS

39. The Clones
You're supposed to remember the troops are clones of Jango Fett. This makes it a lot easier to accept that four clone troopers are capable of taking down one Jedi. I'm sure that four Jango Fett's could take on a single Jedi, especially since Jango was able to survive fighting Obi-Wan.

How many Jangos do you need to take down an Ewok then?

40. Padme's Laissez-Faire Attitude
I commend Padme for her calmness in the face of death. She even goes as far as to promise Anakin that she won't die in the face of death. Excellent. Padme is a woman of her word so there should really be nothing to worry about. She wouldn't lie to Anakin. Would she?
I think I mentioned this before, but if Padme had just accepted she was going to die it probably wouldn't have helped the situation. At least if she pretends it doesn't bother her than it will make Anakin feel a little better (although not much, since he eventually goes crazy anyways).


But please, put a scene with Padme along chocked by the revelation! We need to see she is a human being!

This post has been edited by showmethemoney: 01 July 2005 - 12:59 AM

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#3 User is offline   WalkingCarpet Icon

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Posted 01 July 2005 - 04:13 AM

QUOTE
The Jedi Council doesn't have much of a choice. It's not like they can ask Kit Fisto to accompany Palpatine to the movie theatre.



I'd love to see the changes they'd need to make to the Vader helmet if it'd had been Fisto!
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#4 User is offline   Harvey Globetrotter Icon

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Posted 02 July 2005 - 10:58 PM

"The one blue Jedi chick, Aayla, is able to dress pretty skimpy and the council does not seem to have a problem with it."

I know I wouldn't! thumbsup.gif
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#5 User is offline   showmethemoney Icon

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Posted 02 July 2005 - 11:05 PM

QUOTE (Harvey Globetrotter @ Jul 3 2005, 12:58 AM)
"The one blue Jedi chick, Aayla, is able to dress pretty skimpy and the council does not seem to have a problem with it."

I know I wouldn't!  thumbsup.gif


Oh, man! If only all nuns could dress like that... devil.gif
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#6 User is offline   julie123 Icon

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Posted 06 July 2005 - 08:33 AM

Quote

26. Anakin's Hissy Fit
I think Anakin's reply of "What?" would have been sufficient. "This is outrageous" and "It's unfair" was a reminder of the immature teenage Anakin in AOTC. For the majority of the movie, I was able to believe Anakin had matured from the whiny teen we previously saw. Those two lines just didn't seem to fit his character in ROTS.

I think the only reason the council tolerates his attitude is because "they need him, more than Anakin knows". Ultimately, Anakin could have prevented the Jedi from being slaughtered.



No they fit his character very well; Anakin stamps his foot like a little boy whenever he is thwarted. Look at his reaction when Obi-Wan showed up at Mustafar, that was very mature. The Council put up with him because he is the Chosen One and not because of any cheap throw away line from Palpatine. Jeez, it is bloody obvious that Palpatine is building up the ego of this twerp because he wants him to turn to the dark side and so therefore should not be treated as if he now speaks the word of God

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Even his blatant disregard for the Jedi dress code of silly brown robes does not tip them off to anything being amiss.
The one blue Jedi chick, Aayla, is able to dress pretty skimpy and the council does not seem to have a problem with it.


Anakin is wearing his pre-Sith Suit because he obviously wanted to make it easier for a Sith Master to spot him to be his next apprentice: If a Jedi is wearing black clothing and is constantly arrogant, reckless, and prone to anger, thatís your apprentice. Go after him


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28. Wookiee Relations
"Go, I will. Good relations with the Wookiees, I have."
I don't think the intent of the line was really to get some kind of reaction from the viewer. It seemed to me that since Yoda had good relations with the Wookies, it would be logical for him to go to Kashyyk. I don't know what else to say. It is such a non significant line.



No, it was not an insignificant line. WHY does Yoda have such good relations with the Wookies when Chewie in A New Hope, obviously does not have much respect for or even like the Jedi?

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29. The Jedi Code
I didn't know what the Jedi Code is, but I had assumed that part of it involved not spying on close friends for the benefit of the Jedi Council. Evidentally I was incorrect.


We know from ATOC that the Jedi are not allowed to have attachments, so Anakin's spying on his dearest friend is NOT against the Code, his friendship is. However, I cannot take seriously someone who thinks spying on close friends is against a code, that he himself fails to uphold. Remember this is the guy who killed unarmed women and children in ATOC, has married when it is not allowed, and is by turns petulant, arrogant, impulsive and unstable. The words practice what you preach come to mind.

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31. The Stupid Dumb Jedi Idiots
A. Balance to the Force involves having an equal amount of Jedi to Sith. Obviously the Jedi's would be idiots if they wanted this balance to occur. But it is quite clear that they don't understand what "balance" means.


The only reason the Jedi do not understand what balance means is because it was not in the script. Are we really expected to believe that in Menace the Jedi would not have wanted to train the Chosen One, if they KNEW that the Chosen One's very existence indicated that the Sith MUST HAVE returned? Much like his films, Lucas made the prophecy up as he went along

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33. The Tragedy of Darth Plagueis
It's a heart-warming Sith legend that brings back the popular question: why the hell do the Sith take apprentices?
If a person is truly that committed to being a Sith, then I think they would be willing to do anything to prevent the Sith from becoming extinct. This includes a master potentially being killed by their apprentice.


Anakinís commitment was to his own self-interest - keeping Padme alive and NOT keeping the Sith from becoming extinct.

Why would a Sith Master who had found the answer to creating eternal life, WANT to take on an apprentice? Seems like a redundant position to me.

And I have posted this before, but why would Anakin believe such a stupid untruth Ė he wants to keep his wife from dying, - who knows the secret to making this happen Ė step forward the dead guy. PPLLEEAASSEE!!!


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36. The Virgin Birth (or Anakin, I am your father.)
I made a post a long time ago which makes it quite clear that Plagueis has to be the "father" of Anakin. It makes no sense for Palpatine to have created Anakin. .


Yes, but this is YOUR post and as far as the rest of us know you arenít George Lucas. Plague does not have to be the father of Anakin just because you say so. The whole of the PT makes no sense so why you have a problem with Palpatine being Anakinís father is beyond me. However, Lucas has made it perfectly clear, check out the official star wars website, that neither Plague or Palps are Anakinís father, THE FORCE is. That is why the good and bad side of the force can use Anakin.

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37. Wookiee Tarzan Yell
I always liked the Tarzan Yell as a child and I still do like it. The battle on Endor used to make me very sad when the Ewoks where losing, and the Tarzan yell from Chewbacca was in a way the turning point of the battle. It seems like something a Wookie would do.


No, itís something Tarzan would do which is why itís called a Tarzan yell. I had a problem with this yell because yet again, Lucas was betraying fantasy boundaries.

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39. The Clones
You're supposed to remember the troops are clones of Jango Fett. This makes it a lot easier to accept that four clone troopers are capable of taking down one Jedi. I'm sure that four Jango Fett's could take on a single Jedi, especially since Jango was able to survive fighting Obi-Wan.


You appear to forget that we have lived with the storm troopers, Fett's 'children' for over 20 years. The storm troopers couldnít hit anything from even 20 paces away and were weak minded enough for Ben to pull that Jedi Mind Trick thing on them, so why should the Jedi fear Fett? And your 4-1 ratio explanation is just stupid.

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40. Padme's Laissez-Faire Attitude
I commend Padme for her calmness in the face of death. She even goes as far as to promise Anakin that she won't die in the face of death. Excellent. Padme is a woman of her word so there should really be nothing to worry about. She wouldn't lie to Anakin. Would she?
I think I mentioned this before, but if Padme had just accepted she was going to die it probably wouldn't have helped the situation. At least if she pretends it doesn't bother her than it will make Anakin feel a little better (although not much, since he eventually goes crazy anyways).
[/QUOTE]

Padmeís reaction to Anakinís foretelling of her death echoes that there, there youíve had a hard day gesture when Anakin told her he had killed those women and children Tuskenís in ATOC. She was probably getting off on the fact that she was going to die and Anakin would then be forced to kill billions of people in an effort to get over his guilt.
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#7 User is offline   Magee Icon

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Posted 06 July 2005 - 11:43 AM

"28. Wookiee Relations
"Go, I will. Good relations with the Wookiees, I have."
I don't think the intent of the line was really to get some kind of reaction from the viewer. It seemed to me that since Yoda had good relations with the Wookies, it would be logical for him to go to Kashyyk. I don't know what else to say. It is such a non significant line."

- Storm

I cannot believe that your explanation for why this seen is anything but ridiculous is that the lines are not significant. As though filling a film with insignificant lines is the hallmark of good screenwriting. In fact reading through all of your counter arguments makes me ask myself on what criteria you are judging the validity of this film. It seems as though you only find problems with what is outright contradictory or absurd, while simply being pointless, stupid or bad, is a decent counterargument to criticism. It is not. Star Wars should be better than simply not being contradictory or absurd.
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Posted 06 July 2005 - 10:11 PM

Now where arethe counter-reasons 41 to 50?
Sorry, you won't be seeing a smartass sig here. Try with the next poster.
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Posted 07 July 2005 - 02:16 AM

QUOTE (Magee @ Jul 6 2005, 12:43 PM)
I cannot believe that your explanation for why this seen is anything but ridiculous is that the lines are not significant.  As though filling a film with insignificant lines is the hallmark of good screenwriting.


I'm pretty sure what Storm meant was that the line was simply a piece of exposition, informing the audience where Yoda was headed. As such, it is not meant to provoke a reaction in any way -- and, as such, is of relatively minor importance (compared to, say, a line like, "I am your father"). Therefore, to be criticizing and calling attention to a line that is pure exposition seems rather silly.

Even more silly than the line itself!
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Posted 11 July 2005 - 01:57 PM

That all the lines in these movies are exposition is what is ridiculous. That Yoda's exposition makes a reference to a larger subplot that is never bothered to be explained is absurd.
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Posted 11 July 2005 - 10:44 PM

QUOTE (DarthTherion @ Jul 7 2005, 02:16 AM)
I'm pretty sure what Storm meant was that the line was simply a piece of exposition, informing the audience where Yoda was headed. As such, it is not meant to provoke a reaction in any way -- and, as such, is of relatively minor importance (compared to, say, a line like, "I am your father"). Therefore, to be criticizing and calling attention to a line that is pure exposition seems rather silly.

Even more silly than the line itself!

Exactly.
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