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From the Empire's perspective

#1 User is offline   winkdink Icon

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 10:18 PM

Now that the circle is complete and we have seen all six chapters of the SW Saga.... can I ask a philosophical question? Is the Empire the clear cut evil that Lucas would have you all to believe? My pointt of view is that they were about bringing order out of chaos. If you think about it you had smuggglers running rampant,slavery,drugs(death sticks),gambling,Sandpeople going about unchecked and the Hutts making their own rules. All of these things happened under the Republic with the Jedi being their enforcers. Basically you had a wild west anarchy with the Jedi being the Earp's and Doc Holiday(O.K. Corral was not about the law, it was a blood feud about money and control. Earp's just had Tin Stars). Just some food for thought

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Posted 02 July 2005 - 01:42 PM

QUOTE (winkdink @ Jun 30 2005, 10:18 PM)
Now that the circle is complete and we have seen all six chapters of the SW Saga.... can I ask a philosophical question? Is the Empire the clear cut evil that Lucas would have you all to believe? My pointt of view is that they were about bringing order out of chaos. If you think about it you had smuggglers running rampant,slavery,drugs(death sticks),gambling,Sandpeople going about unchecked and the Hutts making their own rules. All of these things happened under the Republic with the Jedi being their enforcers. Basically you had a wild west anarchy with the Jedi being the Earp's and Doc Holiday(O.K. Corral was not about the law, it was a blood feud about money and control. Earp's just had Tin Stars). Just some food for thought

                                                           winkdink   (closet Sith)



Yes, without a doubt the movies are still portraying them as evil. Not to mention selfish. I don't think Palpatine's sole motivation was revenge against the Jedi, he wanted power for himself ("once more the Sith will rule the galaxy!"). Apparently the Sith were oppressive rulers of the galaxy at one time ("The oppressive of the Sith will never return!" - Mace Windu).

Palpatine says he they will have "peace." Of course to get that peace he CREATED a civil war, which killed billions (the novel talks about entire planets burning at the command of General Grevious). He would go on to create an Empire that from its VERY EARLIEST BEGINNINGS was creating weapons of mass destruction and terror (the Death Star), which they used against civilians to kill even more countless billions.

Palpatine orders the mass murder of former employees and personal execution of former (secret) employees. This policy of killing your own men for dubious reasons is carried on in proud Imperial tradition by Vader in the classic trilogy with his snuffing out of Admirals when it suites him.

Palpatine even orders Anakin to murder children. Are all the Jedi worthy to die because of the actions of four Jedi leaders? Apparently so, even children who couldn't realistically defend themselves from one adult Jedi, much less a Stormtrooper army. No trials, just mass murder.

Palpatine is shown to be a liar in the film, a mass murderer, and a traitor. Was he insane? Probably. But that didn't let certain evil dictators off the hook in earth's history either. Their actions speak for themselves. So yes, I'd say it's obvious that the Empire is portrayed as clear cut evil in this film.

If murdering thousands or billions of people for dubious reasons and lying and manipulating to gain power while destroying freedom aren't evil, then no, the Empire is not evil, just opportunist. Hope that helps. wink.gif

If you want to get into Jonathan Last type rhetoric about the Empire "stomping on crime" please don't. Jabba the Hutt wanders around Mos Eisley with a tiny group of lightly armed guards (okay, he has Boba Fett now, but still). There "Imperial Presence" on Tatooine is laughable to nonexistent. Biggs (despite his being a Rebel sympathizer, note this is before he actually joins the Rebels) speculates that the Empire "wouldn't even fight to save the system." There is mass rejoicing on the planet of Palpatine's birth and the capital planet when the Death Star 2 and the Empire's top two leaders and flag ship are destroyed.

The Hutts didn't disappear or go into hiding in the classic trilogy. Slavery still exists there. The Empire has made zero impact, except that occasionaly you have some Stormtroopers waltzing in and mass murdering some mositure farmers and Jawas and trying to blame it on Sand people. The Sandpeople also wander around attacking people who enter their territory. Some "law and order."

Is gambling evil? Gambling goes on in the classic trilogy, but even if the Empire banned gambling outright, I don't think that tiny social good would have balanced out their other crimes. As far as drugs, again, we don't know. Maybe they did and everyone is breaking the law in the classic trilogy ("spice smuggling" for an example.. unless it's akin to bootlegging liquor in the US even though alcohol sale is legal). The Empire has capital punishment and torture as well as execution without trial as a matter of course (taking in guilt by association as an excuse for slaughter). Hardly promoting an ordered society are they? Their terror mongering is what started the Rebellion in the first place. If anything, the deaths from the Clone Wars AND the Galactic Civil War fall on their heads.

The Jedi aren't a law unto themselves, they are under the control of the Senate. They also have the influence of the Chancellor (note: Valorum dispatching them as ambassadors in TPM). They only time they try to sieze power is when it's clear that Palpatine is a Sith Lord controlling not only the executive branch but also the Senate and the Courts, greatly overstepping his bounds and destroying the very foundation of the Republic. There's even the evidence that he's behind the war, pointing him out as a traitor. For the Jedi's very survival they had to act. Could they have tried exposing the plan to the Senate? Perhaps. They miscalculated Palpatine's combat prowess and his sway over Anakin.

An if we want to drag in the expanded universe, have have proof of the Empires racism, sexism (with few exceptions) and enslavement of the Wookiees and Mon Calamari (which the Rebels treat as equals). We also have the Empire building even more super weapons, and generally acting like jerks. Sure, we later have the Rebels formed New Republic being corrupt and ineffective, but there you go.

Would you rather have an incompetent government that might let you die, or an evil government that will actively try to MAKE you die, and maybe torture you first?

My 2 cents. I'm Lucas has said it enough times, the Empire is meant to be evil, and the Dark Side is meant to be what NOT to do, in his "message." wink.gif

This post has been edited by KurganX: 02 July 2005 - 01:45 PM

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Posted 02 July 2005 - 04:44 PM

Really? Planets burning? I'd have loved to see that, other than that same lava planet shot of course.

Wouldn't that would be considered "global warming"?
Evil gets a point there.

Yet, think of the Emperor's Grand imperial vision of simply Destroying planets with a single "fire".

Surely that kind of Motivation could only be driven from a sense of good. And they were providing employment for all the clones. They were a Family, for Goodness' sake!

And Darth's name became a title. He was lording merciful justice across the galaxy. Just looking for a better partner, and in so, do a better job for the cause he believed in. With Righteous fervor.

What could possibly be wrong about that?
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