Sorry this took a while, I had to go get some lunch (mmm, mcdonalds)
Jm - What I read about that passage didn't really directly address the issues that you were talking about. It is an interesting quote, though. If you want it I can post it for you...I'll keep looking for something that addresses that specific verse.
civilian_number_two - You are an interesting person, and I enjoyed replying to your arguements.
"Jesus never said that he had fulfilled anything."
Matthew 5:17 " Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prhphets. I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill."
"Jesus was Jewish and he kept kosher his whole life. One or two times he slipped, and forgot to wash his hands, like Jordan said."
I can only assume that you are talking about Matthew 15, when it was Jesus' followers that didn't wash THEIR hands. Is that right?
"Jesus delivers this speech after coming back from the dead. Seriously; people don't come back from the dead, outside of Hollywood. That's the part of the story I can't imagine people still believe."
It's hard, I know...but I bellieve that God is omnipotent, that he could do anything.
"Anyway, Jesus was Jewish. He hung out with Jews. This one time he talked to a woman outside his faith, and he admitted that once the children of God had been fed, it would be ok for the dogs to get the scraps that fell from the table. That's how he felt about Gentiles, that God was for the Jews, but that once they were taken care of maybe everyone else could have a bit."
In the Bible it talks about how God loved the
world , so he sent Jesus to die.
"He never preached to them, despite that one interaction with a particularly brash water-gatherer who cornered him while his posse wasn't around."
Actually, the woman at the well was a Samaritan, a half-jew and half-gentile that would never presume to address Jesus, because of the relations between Samaritans and Jews, and because she was a woman. Jesus began the conversation by addressing her.
"This idea that Christianity was NOT Jewish is as crazy as your short-term memory loss about Christians persecuting Jews."
What do you know about my memory???
I was merely stating that I needed specific examples of said persecution to address them in an intelligent manner. I cannot debate something if I don't know what the heck you are talking about. Christianity has it's basis in Judaism, of course, but it was not intended to be exclusively for the Jews.
"Are you serious? Do you think Christianity was invented in the 80s, in North America,"
No, and if you want to go into it, I can lay before you an outline of church history.
"and that all you need is a "personal relationship with the Lord?"
Yes.
"Christianity has a 20-century history of wars and persecution, most of that time as the party in power."
Again, I need to know the examples that you are speaking of in order to make an educated argument.
"(1)but he made the religion into a Roman and Gentile one. (2)Numerous attempted stonings and accusations of heresy from orthodox Jews and even other (3)Christians made Paul a bit of a (4)separatist by nature. Probably this came from having begunhis career in public life as a persecutor and murderer of Christians."
Okay, I split this section up, so that I can address these all individually:
1. He didn't MAKE the religion anything. God did.
2. True.
3. When was he stoned by Christians?
4. Paul seperated from the church not because of his beliefs differing, or because of his history of near-death experiences, but because he was called to go and travel to other areas and teach them.
"Paul took elements of Mithraism and made them Christianity, discarding Judaism almost entirely. This did not come out of a special revelation, but out of a council meeting, where Paul was called on to defend his Gentile friends and to explain why they still made blood sacrifices and kept their foreskin. This was a meeting not where "Judaizers" tried to hijack the Church, but one where pagans hijacked a Jewish sect and stripped it of its Jewish background. It was agreed that in exchange for their foreskin they'd give up on sacrifices, and the whole doctrine of the sacrifice by proxy came about (you can find stuff in the Gospels, but a lot of that was written later, remember, and anyway it doesn't lead to the conclusion everyone hears unless they've also ready Paul)."
This whole section is a bit confusing to me... I'm not exactly sure where you got this information, it sounds like whoever you have been talking to has mashed a bunch of different scripture passages into one.
"Mithraism and made them Christianity"
How so?
"why they still made blood sacrifices and kept their foreskin. This was a meeting not where "Judaizers" tried to hijack the Church, but one where pagans hijacked a Jewish sect and stripped it of its Jewish background. It was agreed that in exchange for their foreskin they'd give up on sacrifices, and the whole doctrine of the sacrifice by proxy came about "
Actually, the early church had to deal with several sects, both with false teachers and Judaizers. What passage are you taking this from?
"The Romans liked all this because it wasn't Judaism, which they weren't fond of. (1)The Hellenists liked it later because (2)John worked gnosticism into it, which is some wild stuff, man. (3)The church that became Catholicism decided which books would be the ones you are reading now when you say you have a personal relationship with Jesus. Catholics. (4)I dare say most Christians in this forum have no connection to that odd bunch of crackpots, but you still read their Bible? (5)These guys banned numerous writings early on, some of which were miraculously discovered in a cave in 1945. These banned books painted different pictures of Jesus than the one you have, in some ways making him more wise, and in others more human. (6)Why not read the books the Catholics cut out, or look into the histories of the ones they kept? (7)Why accept as the protected word of God the collected books of only one group of Christians, and a group on whom so many Christians have turned their backs?"
1. Hellenists were merely Greek speaking Jews. The only reason for the distinction in the early church was that Jews and Hellenists spoke different languages.
2. How so?
3. Actually, early Catholicism and modern Catholicism are very different. And there was a point, called the Reformation, that the Christian church broke of from a Catholicism that they felt no longer taught God's word. If you want to go into church history, just let me know, because we can.
4. I can speak for myself, I do not read a Catholic Bible.
5. Many writings that were found were judged to be non-canonical when compared with other writings in the Bible. There was a set of guidelines that were followed. If you want to go into the formation of the collection of books that make up the Bible, we can.
6. There are books, called Apocriphal literature that may be included in Catholic Bibles, that are not included in other denominations Bibles. If you want to go into the differences between denominations, we can.
7. Going back to point #3, and 6, and 5. If you want to talk about these areas, we can.
"PS: (1)If they haven't formed a relationship with Jesus, they go to hell? To bad for centuries of peoples outside Europe and the Middle East! (2)Too bad for the Mayans! (3)Too bad for Moses, even! Too bad indeed!"
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Moses was covered by the Old Covenant, that is, the old "agreement" that God made with the Jews, which is what had them making sacrifices, and having temples and the like. If you want to talk about Old Testament History, we can.
"(A)nd the famous great commission, where he told his boys to preach to all of the peoples of the world, that never happened. Not only are the Gospels questionable to begin with, butthat bit isn't even in the oldest copies of the Gospels."
What are your sources for this information? If you don't present a full arguement, this has the possibility of deteriorating into a "yes it is" "no it isn't" match.
In summary
(and a teeny bit of explanation):
All of these are interesting arguements, and obviously you have put a lot of research and thought into it. But in order to make the best arguement that I can, I need to know your sources. Each of the areas that you have brought up, I have done research on, and if you wanted, I could present you with an article complete with sources, but I don't know if this is the appropriate place, or if Chefelf really wants to devote that much space to it. But if you really want the information, I can provide you with a list of authors that deal with these subjects, or I can provide a compilation that you can access. Just let me know.
Edit: Also, let me know if anything could use some clarification.
This post has been edited by Dorothy: 11 August 2005 - 03:04 PM
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