[Revan-47]

i actually feel sorry for satan. id rather not be his best friend, but i feel sorry for him.

[jariten]

What can God do?

He builds, he creates, he envisions, he makes plans and he protects.

All his abilities are as limited, and as human, as yours and mine. Thats naturally the result of "Him" being invented by human minds.

If God did exist, why would he give a shit if we worshipped him or not? Does he have an ego? He probably cries too, right?

[Zatoichi]

But God created Satan. So that makes god the root of all evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Took me a bit, but here is my rebuttal.

Let's say for the sake of discussion that you created a sentient being. How about, for simplicity, a clone of yourself. By some turn of events it commits various evil acts such as murder, rape, torture, etc. Your clone was created of you and by you. It also happens to be a living, breathing, thinking, Being. Are you the cause of the evil that has taken place, or did your clone commit those acts out of its own volition? There exists a thing known as personal responsibility. You may have been part of the reason, but you are not the reason these crimes were committed. Here is another example: What if you are a scientist working with hazardous materials in a lab. You have taken all of the proper precautions, including putting a sign on the door that says Do Not Enter. Earlier that day you had talked to one of your colleges about your work. He comes to the door, reads the sign, and enters anyways, and an accident happens. Is it your fault that your collogue was being a stupid prat? Obviously he did not follow what should have been done, but the accident occured in an area that at the time was your responsibility to maintain.

To finish my statement, I say again that the Devil is the embodiment of evil, not the source of it. Just as God is not the source of good, but the embodiment of it. That is why good actions can have evil outcomes, and evil actions can have good outcomes. It also explains why good and evil are subjective and that different actions can various consequences depending upon the situation.

I hope you have read this entire post and understand the meaning of what I have put down.

[Wayne]

Before I say anything else, let me first say that its good to have a reasonabledebate with an intelligent christian. Not saying that they're rare, I just live in a rednecky area of South Carolina, so I don't see them very often.

So, I know you're not a biblical literalist. If god possesses none of the three O's, then he's just like a regular guy with a lot of power and time on his hands. Assuming I had the power, time, and knowledge of genetics to create a clone, and my clone went bad, then no, it wouldn't be my fault because I couldn't have foreseen the damage my clone would do. If the same was true for God, if god didn't have the foresight to know that Satan was evil, and if he didn't have the power to turn back time and erase the damage that Satan had done, then what makes him any better than us? Why should I worship God if the only thing that makes him better than me is that he is in control of earth? If any intelligent, compassionate, hard-working person was in god's shoes, they could probably do just as good a job as god is doing now.

[xenduck]

some one said, i dont know who, iver heard this quote attributed to newton, einstien, and ben franklin...but someone said,

"what interests me is if god had any choice in creating the universe."

the point is, what is god's motivation in all this. ive said earlier that i have no clue of how to answer that. its like when you say 'why, this?' 'because'. 'because why?' and so on. it just cant be answered at present, by anyone.
but ask yourself, why in america, and many other countries, is the idea of the pantheon of anthropomorphic dieties all but extinct?
becuase, as plato, aristotle, descarte and kant, among others, pointed out, there is no sense in a god that is not omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent. i, for one, am tired of hearing god refered to as existant, but limited. thats just christian apologetics-an excuse. ill tell you though, that god is 'limited' in that he has set for himself (pardon my masculine pronouns) rules of operating. god wont break his own rules; without rules there could be no creation. only the void mentioned before creation. symantically put, the only thing god cant do is nothing-therefore, there is nothing god cannot do.
so why did god decide on the rules that we know of? i havent a clue. all i know is that the rules have never been broken. if god creates lucifer, and lucifer makes himself evil, god is not responsible for that evil, even if he knew it would happen. if god interfered with the choices beings make, then there would be no choice at all; only clockwork oranges. why would god want beings that can make choices? i dont know. but im working on it...im out of time on my lunch break, but i have plenty more to say.

This post has been edited by xenduck: 16 September 2005 - 12:29 PM

[Wayne]

Maybe earth is just The Sims on a much larger scale. (Cue Twilight Zone music). But I find that random mutations, adaptations, big bangs and big crunches, are much more plausible than the idea of some cosmic judge in heaven.

[Slade]

No punctuation and paragraphing makes my brain hurt. ><

People are dreadful enough for the most part that the universe doesn't need an actual entity that's the embodiment of evil.

[Patrick Bateman]

I may be a little simplistic when it comes to these matters ... but what has always puzzled me is the idea that a creator exists without a creator to create the creator. If this is not the case, if the creator just existed without a creator then isn't that the backbone of the atheistic movement? Therefore isn't Genesis a disclaimer for the rest of the bible? Pretty cunning of God if you ask me.

[Jordan]

God is uncreated, he's always been. It think that's part of the package of being "God". Either the universe is uncreated or God is, take your pick. ONe of them has to be created the other one has to be infinite with no beginning. The idea is too much for us, but their you have it.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 17 September 2005 - 03:10 AM

[barend]

Let's say for the sake of discussion that you created a sentient being.  How about, for simplicity, a clone of yourself.  By some turn of events it commits various evil acts such as murder, rape, torture, etc.  Your clone was created of you and by you.  It also happens to be a living, breathing, thinking, Being.  Are you the cause of the evil that has taken place, or did your clone commit those acts out of its own volition?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

not really... i would have programmed it to be evil...

[Zatoichi]

humorous as that was, I'm going to say "You Suck" for trying to ruin my example. Not that it was one of the greatest examples of all time anyway.

This post has been edited by Zatoichi: 19 September 2005 - 07:35 PM

[Otal Nimrodi]

Yes, tell the nice massive poster how you feel.

[barend]

i wasn't trying to ruin your point...

i was just saying i'm evil.

but for even thinking i suck, my clone may ruin YOU!

[Wayne]

If you make a clone of yourself and have sex with it, is that incest or masturbation?

[Zatoichi]

Or just plain wrong, unless your a gi... *got killed by someone, presumably of the female persuasion*