[Zatoichi]

Erm... Jordan, I think you missed my point. To quote myself:

As an example, during the Dark Ages, many worshipers were starving poor people, whilst members of the clergy lived richly and had their places of worship bedecked in gold and silver. Can anyone tell me what is right about that?

Every organization has its bad stuff and its good stuff. There are very few exceptions. What I am saying is that they did more harm than good throughout history. It was only an example anyways. By the way, if you haven't noticed I'm not an atheist, or anything else. I serve at an Episcaple Chuch in Saratoga. I do believe I am right in assuming that your post was directed at me because I am the only one who even mentioned the Dark Ages.

[barend]

Stop shitting on your past and making religous types out to be bloody monsters. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

like my ansesctors who were originally french and escaped to Holland because the catholics were killing everyone who would not convert.

well... they seemed like a nice bunch, but god bless 'em we just were'nt interested...

[Zatoichi]

Yeah, and this is about Catholics right here, not religous types.

Also, find for me a group of people who have never done anything wrong, especially since a lot of the time wrongness is another's opinion.

[barend]

well you can almost forgive most groups...

but christians by definition are subject to more scrutiny because they are defined by morality and therefore it is far greater a crime for them to do evil things as they have devoted their lives to good.

when a group defies it's own set of ethics you have a serious problem.

[Jordan]

Looking back, my comment really is out of place. I read a few lines from pervious posters and got confused. HOwever, most people do think that the early church was all evil men. They seem to cloud over all the good things catholics did.

Barend I'm talking about the VERY early church, I don't think holland was around in the 3rd century.

Most catholics back then (and even now) did not read the bible. Chances are they probably couldn't read latin or even their native tongue. Wealthy warlords,kings, and powerful popes used their ignorance to drive their persecution. Furthermore, these were bloody times PERIOD. Pagans did not religiously persecute people, but they were brutal, killing off towns and raping the captives.

People enjoy shitting on religous folks because like you said, they SHOULD be nice and all that. Yet nobody is suprised when Pagan hordes kill off entire villages, communist russia and china persecute everything, etc... People just love singling out the church and crying out how bad they are because it makes them feel good knowing that christians fuck up, because it secures in their minds that they're a bunch of stupid freaks and their religion is wrong because spanish people burned aztecs while praying to crosses and yada yada. I think it's an insecurity thing.

It is not the monks who brought about the Reneissance, either, I am sorry, but it is the most ridiculous statement I've heard recently. If anything, it was the desctuction of Byzantice Empire, because it forced some refugees from Byzantium to go West, and bring with them books preserved from Ancient Greece.

The moors brought much of the classical age to iberia (abascus lived there and he was the father of modern medicince (muslim)). After they fell, the christianity took over. Rather than destory all the works, they took them and built on them.

Futhermore it was the christian monks who built on the works. Every single educated scholar in Gaul, Brittania, and Germania were monks. Byzantine was also the seat of the early church and many of the people who lived there were chrisitan since christians got special attention and rights due to Constantine, a zealous christians ruler, even though he himself was an evil man lol. So that exodus you spoke of were largely christian. I say again the scholars of the early AC period were almost entirely religous people. Universities did not pop up until much later.

The Ottomans sacked the byzantium empire, which may have moved some sorts over to the west, but again I think it was largely christian, why else would crusaders go and kick the Ottoman's out? Sorry I don't know much about this period. Ok I just did a check and this sacking of the empire is a lot closer to the renaissance. But still you can't really deny that all the early work that went on prior to this did not help bolster the minds of the west. Those early scholars get no love.

I love history but I'm not a pro at it. I know alot about certain people and time frames but the renaissence, and late medeval europe is a bit of a blur, especially the east and south.


But now that I think about it, the renaissence did not just happen over night. There must have been an active sub culture for a while prior to Da Vinci and all those guys. And I know that mid medieval times started to see the rise of scholastic institues, mostly in monastaries. So the foundations were being set. They went from barbarians (who were very smart, just not as smart as the classical people) to educated folk over a long span.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 25 August 2005 - 02:25 AM

[Jordan]

Shit I used all my 'edit' button uses.

PS- nice to see you back MC.

[Zatoichi]

I was actually planning on taking Medieval History in the Spring. I know its a long way off, but...

This post has been edited by Zatoichi: 25 August 2005 - 05:04 AM

[Madam Corvax]

Jordan, thanks , but I do not consider myself as being gone, just took two weeks of vacation.

Anyway, I still cling to my point that Christianity did not necessarily advance the development of human history.

The rule of the roman emperor who proclaimed Christianity as the official religion saw also the closure of Plato's academy 392 AD.
Christians opposed Greek philosophy with all their might. Ever heard of Hypatia, a woman philosopher from Alexandria from neo-platnic school who was killed by monks? Check it out in Wikipedia. And there are dozens of examples when Christian hindered the development rather then progressed it. It is truly a wonder than any books from ancient Greece were preserved at all.

If you want to learn more about the early Chistians, here is link to an excellent page which I find really helpful:
http://www.geocities...earlyxtian.html

It basically says that early christians were uneducated and anti-intellectual people.

Do you know, that the index of banned books in Cathoilic Church was functioning till 1966 and it was not till late 19th century that they removed the Copernicus's work from it (in case you don't know, it was a guy from Poland who in early 16th century published a book called "De revolutionibus Orbis celesti" saying that the Earth revolves around the sun, not the other way round. ) There wasn't proably even one philosoper whose books at one point or the other did not appear on the Church Index. And don't say it's only Catholics, Martin Luter also proclaimed Copernicus a fool as well.

Basically, I can't see who rationality, science and development can ever be conciliated with the religion whose one teacher says :

"Restrain our own reasoning, and empty our mind of secular learning, in order to provide a mind swept clear for the reception of divine words"

See another page of Paul Tobin webpage:
http://www.geocities...sonfathers.html

Well, if this does not convince you, then I don't know what can.

[Mnesymone]

Though the scholarly monks were a fine example of good men, these are not the ones in question.
(Also, Constantine was not a zealous christian ruler - he was christian for less than a week since he was baptised on his deathbed - he simply wanted to stop a war between the old-school Mithraics and the newer Christians by altering Christianity to a point where it was acceptable to the Mithraists and then supporting it as the official religion.)
When people dump on the 'evil' church - they have a right to - the church claimed to be god's infallible agent on earth, spreading love and mercy - and did exactly the opposite. Crusades (which were not launched to repel Ottomans, as predated Ottoman arrival by centuries), the witch-hunts, the Spanish Inquisition and suchlike. Take for example Malleus Malaficarum or "Hammer of Withces" - one of the oldest printed books in Europe, which detailed the methods of identifying and executing witches, unholy seers and lycanthropes - as a result spread a flame throughout Europe of slaughter of innocents - take the Church-sponsored professional Witch-Finders, like Matthew Hopkins, Witch-Finder General of England, whose only regret in life as he said lying on his deathbed was that he had not killed more children. Take how, in 1494, the Pope of that time made the Treaty of Tordesillas, witch split the Earth between Spain and Portugal, and ushered in cultural destruction and depopulation on an extraordinary scale, beginning the Conquistadores period.
The Renassaince was not caused by the Church - it was fought by the Church - it came about by the study of science passing from monks and magicians to students of physical laws. Galileo, Brunelleschi, Da Vinci - the Renaissance came about by turning away from the church.
When Spain entered the Americas claiming it as their god-given right, their European diseases killed tens of millions of people, their European arrogance cast down cultures, enlightened and savage alike, that had stood longer than Christendom. When witches were burned at the stake, the scale of deaths was greater than any preceding war or plague.
And, of those things Christian which remain today, the greatest contribution to Christianity has come from pagans and prechristians. Christ himself was a Jew, the symbol of the Trinity comes from Ireland, amongst its old gods and legends, the Christmas Tree comes from the pagan Norse, the celebration of easter as exists today comes from moorish spain.
Finally - "many worshipers were starving poor people, whilst members of the clergy lived richly and had their places of worship bedecked in gold and silver" - how true, and it runs even deeper. 18 of the twelve disciples are buried in Spain alone, and money has been paid to the church for visits to these graves. There are enough pieces of true cross and pieces of the crown of thorns to form a brambled forest covering a city block, and money has been paid to the church to see and touch these. In the middle ages, the tithing system drained a tenth of the wealth of all men, lords and labourers. The Indulgence, a system which could apparently hasten the souls passage up Mount Purgatory, was bought and sold. The Church, its moneys and its murders, has broken every commandment and commited every sin in the eyes of its Lord.
There is nothing less Christian than the Church itself.

[barend]

Barend I'm talking about the VERY early church, I don't think holland was around in the 3rd century.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i know... i was just hassling the catholics.

and holland WAS around in the third century...

there may have been more romans and fewer prostitutes smoking pot in windmills, but it was there...

[Despondent]

Copernicus got shafted by Galileo. Just go to Santa Croce.

And Leonardo- at least people remember where he's from.


Choice windmills are few and far between. But worth chasing, all the while trying to do the right thing.

[Zatoichi]

Wow Mnesymone, someone has definately been doing their homework.

[Slade]

They don't call him "The Rememberer" for nothing!

Jordan: I call down oppression and murder regardless of the group involved - it has nothing to do with being insecure or requiring a scapegoat. Hell, there are even violent Buddhists. Crusades, Mongolian hordes, Soviet Russia, Nixon US, Tianamen Square, Iraq, Palestine/Israel, et cetera... All of them make my psyche wring its metephyiscal hair in frustration.

[Jordan]

Also, Constantine was not a zealous christian ruler - he was christian for less than a week since he was baptised on his deathbed - he simply wanted to stop a war between the old-school Mithraics and the newer Christians by altering Christianity to a point where it was acceptable to the Mithraists and then supporting it as the official religion.

Well he certainly did not walk the walk, but he did make the church the official religion of the empire, and through out his reign gave privledges to christians over non-christians.

Barend, the Roman empire still controlled and named it's provinces in the 3rd century.'holland' sounds sort of new and non-latin...lol. I know that the Romanempire collapsed in the later part of the 4th century. Some time after that Germania Inferior Gaul etc.. Started to get carved up into modern Europe.

I think Holland came into existence around 800 or 900 AD.

Christians opposed Greek philosophy with all their might.

Ya Christians still don't like greek philosophy. German philosophy is even more hated. Romans saw them as fee fee men. Christians see them as homosexual hippies. Early greeks that is~ A lot of those philosphers made references to their Gods and non-monogomous sex, therefore won the scorn of the church.

Christ himself was a Jew, the symbol of the Trinity comes from Ireland, amongst its old gods and legends

What?

I don't know much about the renaissance. I do know that many early church northern monks were scholars and did establish schools for prayer and education. I think the church was a reflection of it's time. All those terrible things they did were not uncommon practice. I think they were brutal times were death was very much a normal part of every ones life. Therefore with all the death floating around, killing people for transgressions (something rulers did often) was not seen as barbaric, but just. I do know that most later century people professed christianty. Heck I'm sure 90% of Europe did. It's not hard to profess a faith, every single president of the US has. Heck even I do but I suck at being a christians, I rarely even read the bible. So in the end it's easy to attack a faction were most people don't even follow it. It makes sense though "narrow is the path to salvation, wide is the path to destruction".

PS- martin luther was a good guy!

This post has been edited by Jordan: 26 August 2005 - 10:00 AM

[Zatoichi]

Heck even I do but I suck at being a christians, I rarely even read the bible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nah, I don't really think it is possible to suck at it. Either you truly believe and try to live your life well, or you don't. As for rarely reading the Bible don't worry so much, I have friends who hardly ever practice their religion or profess their faith and yet when asked they still claim to believe such and such. This holds true even for friends of mine who are of other faiths or none at all.