[Patrick Bateman]

My basic issue with Christianity is that any discussion inevitably comes back to " ........ well ...... uh ... you just have to believe".
Bullshit, I don't just have to believe shit. I'm not eight years old, give me some proof motherfucker.

Take Genesis for example. God created the universe. Christians believe this and use as proof the fact that butterfly's are so pretty that only a sentient being could have created them. Well ......... if that's true then let's extend that logic. If the God who created them is proven due to the fact that only a creator could create, then who created God?????? He is more powerful and wonderful than the Universe so surely there must have been created by something else.

" Oh no .... he .... he just always there. He just was."

Nice one christians, I have photo's of the Loch Ness Monster you may be interested in purchasing

[Dorothy]

Actually, Patrick, not every conversation "inevitably" returns to that. I believe in God because I have a relationship with Him. I do not expect you to "blindly follow" what I say, you CANNOT because you don't have that relationship with God. If You knew Bill Gates, and I didn't (don't) then everything that you tell me about his character or capabilities would be from your experience, and I couldn't know him like you do. Let me recommend a book for you. It is called The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. Lee, an atheist who saw a change in his wife's life that she attributed to her recent "conversion to Christianity," set out to disprove her beliefs. He is a very educated man, and I think that you will identify with some of his arguements against Christianity. If you are really interested in what Christians believe, that book would be a good place to start.

This post has been edited by Dorothy: 25 July 2005 - 06:42 PM

[Jordan]

Lee Strobel is a good author. I read "the case for faith". He's a journalist or something.

Another good guy to read is Norman Geisler. I have this giant book called "the enyclopedia of chirsitan apolegietics". It covers everything!

[civilian_number_two]

At least you've seen photos of Gates, Dottie. It's not a perfect analogy.

[Revan-47]

The case for christ and the case for a creator are excelent books.

[Dorothy]

Thanks for the critique Number 2. Most analogies fail at some point. And thanks for the catchy nickname....I never had one growing up... But even with the faulty analogy, the point still stands that Patrick can't see the proof, but I can, because of my relationship with God. I can tell him about the proof, but it won't be until (if) he chooses to have a relationship that he will really understand. But he is right, a lot of Christians can't express what they believe in a compelling manner. It is really hard for Christians to seperate what they feel about God from what they know about God, which keeps them from stating the case clearly.

Those are really good books, for someone who is really curious about what Christians believe. You could also try reading some of Ravi Zacharias' books.

[JW Wells]

I don't condone atheism because it's just as narrow as most organized religions, but you don't see atheists blowing up churches and people that they don't like.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay, normally I stay out of these discussions, but here I couldn't resist.

[Otal Nimrodi]

But from what I could tell from that minimalistic article, those people were doing it on social grounds, as opposed to religious.

[Patrick Bateman]

But wait a second ... if only you can see the proof doesn't that disqualify it from being proof?????? I mean if I turned up to court and said I'd solved the OJ case and said, "by the way only I am allowed to see the proof" I'd be thrown out ... yet you base your ENTIRE ideology on such PROOF??

Uh oh

[Otal Nimrodi]

You talking to me, or Wells, or someone else? Did I just say something stupid?

[Slade]

In regards to the bombing, those are political-ideological grounds. Blowing up a church because you're a communist government is a little different, but just as retarded.

[Revan-47]

Mountain Dew zaps churches that dont have him in their coke machines.

[Slade]

And God zaps people who bring Mountain Dew into intelligent discussion, as well as theological institutions that welcome commercialism with open arms.

[Dorothy]

Otal, don't worry your pretty little head, he was talking to me.

Patrick, do you mind if I call you Patrick? Patrick, I base my belief in the existence of God on the fact that I have a relationship with him. My experience is what I have first. Second, I have everything around me that points me again to the fact that he exists and cares for me and humanity. I must apologize here for a poor choice of words. My point was, that you cannot see the evidence because you are convinced not to, so anything that I tell you from my own experience or anything I show you will not be enough. I don't want to FORCE you to believe what I do, or to try to trick you, but I hope that someday you can find the peace that I have found.

Really, you seem to have a burning desire to debunk Christianity, and I urge you to look into Lee Strobel's books so that you can get a better picture of Christianity as a whole.

Oh, and Slade, God doesn't zap people.....people zap people. (This should be the new slogan for the Acme Tazer company )

[Patrick Bateman]

You're right about people zapping people ...

I admire anyone who gives themselves over to something or someone else, it takes a shitload of courage and trust, so don't think I'm trying to run you down ... I just for the life of me cannot find any reason to see what you see. Now, that doesn't mean that I am in the right in any way, I could be way off, but from a curiosity point of view it is interesting that we can all go around with such divergent views of the world we all share. I walk around looking at evolution and nothingness etc and pass by Dot perhaps who sees God and love etc.
It would be nice to find some common ground, and I suppose being lovely people perhaps that can be our common ground, but it is trippy that we all wander day to day in seemingly disparate universes, criss crossing each other at traffic lights.