[Revan-47]

I finally have some tme to get into it. I believe we've had debates on God before, but this one is a curious little statement.

1. First of all its been five years since ive accepted christ and i have been a much happier person because of it.

Why exactly are you happier? Can you elaborate?

2. i feel sorry for anyone who doesnt believe in God.

You don't really have to. Honestly. Most people who want to believe in God, do so. If anybody, like me, does not believe that there is god, does so on their own accord. Nobody proselytises to atheism (contrary to some religious groups)

I assume that your happiness about embracing god and sorrow about people who don't believe in god has somethign to do with Pascal's wager. (i.e. if you believe in God you always win). Just tell me, how much are you sure that Christian God is THE true one? How do you know that you are doing the right thing? How about those who believe in Allah? I am sure they are pretty sure that their god is the only one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i suppose im happier because i feel safe that my life has a purpose, and i feel loved and i have no doubt that when i die i will be going to heaven and staying there for eternity. as for feeling sorry for people who arent christians, i suppose that was a poor choice of words. most of my family are athiests and they seem empty and unhappy all of the time.

[Revan-47]

Fair play, I partially retract my previous statement, and replace it thus.

The Bible does actually contain a good deal of stuff to live a good life by. Mostly in the New Testament, obviously. For example, the tale of the Good Samaritan teaches us that a.) we shouldn't judge people on their race, creed, or whatever b.) one should treat others as you'd want to be treated. Lets be honest, anyone can relate to those, and they're both quite sensible. Just a shame that so many who follow the book ignore the good bits, and keep ranting about homosexuality.

However, I don't see the events that occured in the Bible as being anymore likely to have happened than the events of ancient mythology, for example, the Seige of Troy. Sure, similar events may have occured (there may have been a siege at a city called Troy, there may have been a charismatic prophet called Jesus, who believed he was/was believed to be the Son of God), but to expect me to believe that God killed every single human but Noah's family in a huge flood is... well... kinda comical, really.

There, everyone smily happy yet?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

what really pisses me off about christians and homos is that they treat it different from other sins. they say that all sins are alike in gods eyes yet the kick homos out of the church. my cousin is gay and i guess that leads me to have a more personal opinion about it but even though i am a christian, the religion has its hipocrits that speak the word of god but ignore it. the only main truth of christianity is that we all do things wrong and should be forgiven no matter what the sin.

[floppydisk]

Well spoken, Revan.

You mean as long as you're sorry for what you did, though.

[Jordan]

gods eyes yet the kick homos out of the church.

No they don't. The church is open for all walks of life. Nobody is kicking homos out of churches, they're simply not accepting their lifestlye or pandering to them. They can attend church and prayer, but they can't preach or be an elder.

Some churches (the pansy ones) like to pander to all sorts of things. One of them is Gay marriage. So those churches are formed.

I don't recall the bible ever telling people to kick others out of church. If you see evil practice going on, you voice your say and if nobody pays attention you leave, you don't kick them out.

we all do things wrong and should be forgiven no matter what the sin.

That's true, but at the same time Christians are suppose to stand in defense of faith. So when people try call black white, you have to stand up. Nobody is condemning gay people, just drawing a line that it is wrong. Heck, gratuitious sex is wrong by the churches standard, and is seen as evil, but it still goes on. Nobody is getting kicked out of nowhere.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 27 June 2005 - 03:56 PM

[Otal Nimrodi]

Many people tell me how happy they are that they have converted to a religion. I am perfectly fine as I am. And I believe that Revan and Jordan may have been discussing different sects of christianity.

But that's just my opinion, I might be wrong.

[Revan-47]

gods eyes yet the kick homos out of the church.

No they don't.  The church is open for all walks of life.  Nobody is kicking homos out of churches, they're simply not accepting their lifestlye or pandering to them.  They can attend church and prayer, but they can't preach or be an elder. 

Some churches (the pansy ones) like to pander to all sorts of things.  One of them is Gay marriage.  So those churches are formed.

I don't recall the bible ever telling people to kick others out of church.  If you see evil practice going on, you voice your say and if nobody pays attention you leave, you don't kick them out.

we all do things wrong and should be forgiven no matter what the sin.

That's true, but at the same time Christians are suppose to stand in defense of faith.  So when people try call black white, you have to stand up.  Nobody is condemning gay people, just drawing a line that it is wrong.  Heck, gratuitious sex is wrong by the churches standard, and is seen as evil, but it still goes on.  Nobody is getting kicked out of nowhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i never said that the bible encouraged people to kick homos out of the church. and even though most churches allow homos into church(with the exception of quakers) homos dont get the kind of friendship and fellowship that a christian needs. its because of these hipocritical christians that that happens. in fact my family arent christians because of horrible snotty people that go to church and say they are christians and set a view of what christians are really like.that is what i beleive turns people away from religion. homosexuality,while weird and unnatural is a sin like all other sins.

[SimeSublime]

I'm curious as to why people always assume natural is better. Arsenic is natural, but that doesn't mean I'd eat it.

Just because homosexuality isn't natural, doesn't mean it's wrong. Is it wrong to fly in an airplane - after all, if God wanted us to fly he would have given us wings.

[Madam Corvax]

i suppose im happier because i feel safe that my life has a purpose, and i feel loved and i have no doubt that when i die i will be going to heaven and staying there for eternity. as for feeling sorry for people who arent christians, i suppose that was a poor choice of words. most of my family are athiests and they seem empty and unhappy all of the time.

How do you know that when you will die you will be going to heaven? How can you be so sure? As I said, millions of Muslim people think exactly the same. Also - I am not sure which branch of Christianity you are, but there are many of them. and they differn when it comes to the doctrine and practices. What is isn in one church, is perfectly acceptable in another.

Also - why do you think my life if empty? I assume you do good deeds in your life because you want to get to heaven. I do good deeds in my life, because I my own conscience tells me so, and I don't have any eternal happiness in view. I have always thought it pretty childish to stay good only because otherwise someone will slap your fingers in the afterlife, or condemn you to the life of eternal damnation. Worse - it has always seemed to me morally wrong.

No they don't.  The church is open for all walks of life.  Nobody is kicking homos out of churches, they're simply not accepting their lifestlye or pandering to them.  They can attend church and prayer, but they can't preach or be an elder. 

Not even that. They are quite welcome in the catholic church and they can do what they like as long as they don't "practise" their homosexuality.

[Revan-47]

How do you know that when you will die you will be going to heaven? How can you be so sure? As I said, millions of Muslim people think exactly the same. Also - I am not sure which branch of Christianity you are, but there are many of them. and they differn when it comes to the doctrine and practices. What is isn in one church, is perfectly acceptable in another.

Also - why do you think my life if empty? I assume you do good deeds in your life because you want to get to heaven. I do good deeds in my life, because I my own conscience tells me so, and I don't have any eternal happiness in view. I have always thought it pretty childish to stay good only because otherwise someone will slap your fingers in the afterlife, or condemn you to the life of eternal damnation. Worse - it has always seemed to me morally wrong.
Not even that. They are quite welcome in the catholic church and they can do what they like as long as they don't "practise" their homosexuality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually if you knew anything about christianity you would know that the bible as well as jesus taught that good works dont get you to heaven. it is merely by accepting christ as yur savior.and i never once said yur life was empty, i said that i felt my life was fullfilled because i was a christian. you need to stop misunderstanding what i say. i dont judge people. its that kind of judgement that almost drove me away from religion altogether. i have always been just as good as a person as i am now.

This post has been edited by Revan-47: 28 June 2005 - 06:22 PM

[civilian_number_two]

Yeah, Justification thorough Worka alone. The Bible also says "Faith without Works is dead." There are different interpretations of what different things meant in the Bible, and you've hit on one of the major differences of opinion floating around during the Reformation. Apparently it still hasn't been resolved.

Gay Marriage: Unnatural, Ungodly, and not legitimate because the Bloc Quebequois support it, and we all know they're not a legitimate party. God damn, the Conservative party of Canada are funny!

Straight marriage: No longer what God intended anyway, so why don't we pack it in? The whole institution changed once they dropped the word "obey" and started making all this noise about women being equal to men.

Natural vs Unnatural: Yeah, the next guy who makes a big deal about Homosexuality being "Unnatural" better be willing to open his life up to some serious scrutiny.

Life had no meaning before Religion: Ouch. Obviusly you have nothign else to live for, like a good job, children, or love. Either you're pretty young, or that's too bad. Try to use this God club to meet some people, get a close set of friends, round yourself out. Churches are pretty good for that, and those other things, friends, family, community, fulfillment ... those are the things will give your life meaning, not a relationship with an invisible superhero who lives in the clouds.

Churches don't exclude homosexuals: Jordan, find me someone preaching against Gay Marriage who is not religious.

[Despondent]

If you're gay in the Episcopal church and live in a liberal diocese with a tiny voting block (allowing you to campaign, and win, with rather small numbers) You can even get to be Bishop.

And the World Anglican church can say "you're not part of us." And pansy bishops of a conservative diocese (whose numbers strongly oppose the gay diocese, the Practicing gay bishop, and the whole anglican church issue) just go with the National church's flow.

Several congregations have in an In-your-face way, told my Episcopal Diocese of Alabama, "Screw yourself, we're going somewhere to hold to OUR values (within the Anglican church).

More power to them.



I have no problem with homosexuals, personally. But if you want to be gay, AND be a priest, I can think of another church I'd suggest. OH. You want to be OPEN about it. That's YOUR problem.

(quickly leaves the room.)

[barend]

homosexualtiy is part of cultural and social evolution.

is it unnatural? sort of...

homosexuality falls outside the realms of being judged according to nature, like the german industrial band: Einsturzende Neubauten realizing they could use a shopping trolley, spring, or sand in a gutter as a musical instrument.

not what those items where originally intended for, but they make some bitchin' tunes...

it's something that happened. is it worth getting upset about? No.
is it worth a parade? probably not... it's just a sexual preference for gods sake, either be gay or don't... there's nothing to debate...

christians can debate it all they like, but in the end the bible pretty much says that judgement is god's job, and everyone else is suppose to shut the fuck up and mind their own goddamned business!!!
it goes on further to say, that no one should take pleasure in knowing that someone's soul is damned, not that gay people are, as a i believe the little misadventure in Sodom was concentrating more on RAPE then anything else!!! but people like to use it as an excuse to justify who they hate...

and that's the best one...

people who use the bible as an excuse to condemn music, sexual preference, skin color, etc. are in violation of the comandment: 'do not use the lords name in vain.'

yep, that's right...

so at the end of the day, christian, cultist, atheist, or undecided, just do what you want as long as you're not hurting, judging, intimidating, or condescending other people.

[Madam Corvax]

Actually if you knew anything about christianity you would know that the bible as well as jesus taught that good works dont get you to heaven.

That's pretty debatable. If you feel like it, we can move to the debate forum and bicker a little. Quotation vs quotation. PRECISE arguments. I'll ask one of our kind mods to move this to the debate forum, or we can start a new thread? What say you?

As you can see, posting one or two paragraphs will not even scratch the surface of the problem. Civ mentioned that the greatest problem which arose in 16th century hasn't been yet resolved. There are other issues between branches of christianity which arose because Bible can be interpreted, or worse, there are contradicting statements in the Bible. Bible is about 1000 pages long, and you will find plenty of contradictions there, or even factual falsehoods.

I have been always curious how can people refer to "bible" to justify their opinions. Which bits of the Bible, precisely? Those that teach you not to touch menstruating women because they are "unclean"? Those bits that describe how Jew first made the tribe who wanted to join them to get circumcised, and then when mew were down with fewer, slaughtered them all? Bits which tell openly that slavery is permitted? Bits that state openly that a wife is nothing more than "a property" of a husband?

I am also curious why do you say "bible as well as jesus". I assume by Bible you mean OT anf by Jesus NT, right? Bear in mind, that the REAL teachings of Jesus reach us only through relations of people who may or may not have been eyewitnesses, and here are plenty of contradictions between so called "evangelists" The rest of the teachings is mostly St Paul's without whom christianity would fall into oblivion.

it is merely by accepting christ as yur savior.and i never once said yur life was empty, i said that i felt my life was fullfilled because i was a christian. you need to stop misunderstanding what i say. i dont judge people. its that kind of judgement that almost drove me away from religion altogether. i have always been just as good as a person as i am now.

Then it is even "curiouser and curiouser" Merely accepting Jesus as your saviour that makes you happy? How about people who never heard about Jesus (BTW, that's another debatable issue for Christians - what about heathens who never heard about Him as a saviour?)

As you see, the issue is not really that simple. I am by no means judging you, I am asking questions. You seem to be offended by them.
Which reminds me of another thing. Christianity flourished on the ruins of Greek civilisation of philosophy. "Love of wisdom" was replaced by gnosticism - critical minds, who asked questions about the world were despised. There are many quotes from NT which says so. It has always bothered me, that I had to forfeit my reason in order to get eternal bliss.

[Chyld]

Barend, that's the best thing I've heard all day, hurrah.

[Slade]

Yeah, but it's all so damned redundant and sad. No new ideas, nothing even worth debating about, thankfully. I'd hate to have to drop a train on people again. You don't want to jump over my busses...

Yes, I just quoted H*R as a warning. Just... don't make this turn into a Debate Club topic. Don't do it for me, do it for the children.