[Slade]

When I was talking personal insults, I meant all of the mention of how Sailor Abbey is delusional for believing what she does. Really mature, guys/gals... And she's been trying not to debate for a while, too.

It's one thing to not take one's word for spiritual belief. It's another to call the person crazy for believing it.

[Madam Corvax]

When I was talking personal insults, I meant all of the mention of how Sailor Abbey is delusional for believing what she does.
It's one thing to not take one's word for spiritual belief. It's another to call the person crazy for believing it.

(underlines mine)
I used this word:
delusion n [C, U] a false belief about yourself or the situation you are in

in constrast, word "crazy" which I DID NOT USE:

crazy adj
1. STRANGE very strange and not sensible ; = mad [...]
6. MENTALLY ILL

Tobe fair, I also used, which has a derogatory meaning.
gobbledygook n [U] informal complicated language, especially in an official or technical document, that is impossible or difficult to understand - used to show diapproval.

(References Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English, New Edition, Pearson Education Limited, 1978, 2003)

Still, from above I can't the how the statement "these you are delusions" equals to statement "you are crazy". Please, correct me if I am wrong, you know how sensitive I am with respect to my knowledge of English.

I also can't remember you coming to defend me in the "Left out of the Bible" thread, when Zatoichi stated that "I don't go around telling atheists they are full of shit even though I think they might be", which is in my opinion, much more insulting.

Civilian #2 was so kind and answered many points- I basically agree with everything he says. I just wish to add a few things:

This is supposedly a debate club, but I have a feeling this is quickly turning into "presentation of presonal beliefs of dubious credibility, which under no circumstances can be criticised, belittled and undermined, since such actions offend persons holding such beliefs". In such case, change the name of the thread.

If someone makes their personal beliefs known to others in a debate thread, I understand there are there to be challenged and debated.

I cannot disprove claims of people believing in supernatural, ghosts and Celitic Otherworld. I repeat once again, the burden of proof lies with the believers. Unless I see evidence, I have every right to doubt. No proof presented here was conclusive and convincing.

I really sugegst that SA should take Civ up on his proposition to show a ghost to him (I am a little too far to travel to Michigan). I solemnly swear, that if she can convince Civ and if I can hear from him that he is convinced, she'll get herself another convert.

[Sailor Abbey]

Are you into celtic culture, SA?

Well, I suppose my interests are more in Gaelic culture than Celtic.

I solemnly swear, that if she can convince Civ and if I can hear from him that he is convinced, she'll get herself another convert.

No converts necessary. Thank you for not reading my posts.

Ans in the end, when the scientists have said "we can't find anything, and the methodology you provided is bad science," someone can say "Thank you for belittling my beliefs."

The "oh come on now" was referring to this comment. I didn’t say 'thank you for belittling my beliefs' because somebody doest see a scientific connection to the paranormal. I said it because my belief and my ancestors belief in the Otherworld were called gobbledygook and delusional. I thought that was obvious. I will try to clarify next time.

So far I've had no takers, although I have met loads of people who recount personal observations of 100% repeatable and verifiable discovery.

If you really want to observe the paranormal, I don't know how much help I can be. I'm a medium. Listening and talking to spirits is my thing, not getting them to make stuff move around. Hauntings are a different matter all together. But if you'd like me to try to get a hold of some dead friends or relatives, I suppose I can give it a go. I'm not entirely fond of long distance readings, but they're not impossible.

Let me know and I'll see what I can do.

[Sailor Abbey]

And getting back the line that inspired this here post, by "proof" I don't mean a statement of the history of our people and how long they believed in this stuff and therefore how it would personally offend you and our people if I didn't just take your word for it. Because I'm just not going to take your word for it.

How many times am I going to have to say this. I posted those links and articles not to prove the existence of metaphysical... just to point out that there are scientists who are interested in the subject - whether its to prove its a bunch of crap or not.

That’s it.

I'm not sitting at my desk crying right now because nobody believes my views of the spirit world. I don’t care. I really really dont.

Think I'm crazy?

Good. There is a chance that I may be just that. Fine.

But please understand, Druidism is an Earth-Ancestral religion. I worship my ancestors like gods, and my gods like ancestors. I believe many of them dwell in the Otherworld, and I believe that I will join them while I await rebirth into my next incarnation. I dont care that nobody else believes this. I dont care that science cant back up my beliefs. But I also cant help but take offence when somebody calls this personal feeling that was also shared by my ancestors, what I found to be an offensive name.

If you cant understand where I’m coming from, you have obviously already forgotten the outrage and violence that was caused by those Muhammad cartoons. Sure to many people they are just a bunch of stupid drawings - no reason to get so pissed off right. Then there are many others who feel those cartoons piss in the face of Allah, and so start lighting things on fire. I wonder if instead of sharing my views of the Otherworld, I expressed my firm belief in the sanctity of the Quran and the dire importance of proper handling (also a spiritual belief with no scientific backing), if my beliefs would also have been called gobbledygook.

[civilian_number_two]

I understand the Celtic ancestor worship. In terms of husbandry, I am Celtic. The Otherworld belief is not terribly dissimilar from the Underworld of the Greeks and the Egyptians. I have also read Homer. This stuff, like you say, has been going on since before people used paper to wipe their asses. Like I have said, tenure doesn't legitimise your statements. Only actual evidence will do that. You're in an interesting place, arguing for the validity of something while saying at the same time that you're not interested in proving it. I appreciate that you're only interested in talking with poeple already predisposed to believing this sort of thing, and that it is disappointing that this sort of thing will always invite skeptics at the same rate that it invites curious proselytes and casual listeners.

As for whether you wre Muslim and threatening to burn things when I say that you should not stone women for marital infidelity or cut out their clitorises, well yeah, who gives a fuck. I am an atheist, and have absolutely no respect for proscriptive religions. For the record, angry Muslims, I have also belittled Christianity for its perennial resistance to gay marriage, for its hysterical criticisms of rock music, television and video games, etc. But IMO Christianity in North America in the here and now is nothing compared to what the US-supported Taliban was doing to women in Afghanistan. So no, angry Muslims who may be listening, my disgust with your terrible church has nothing to do with racism. Christians used to burn people alive and pull them apart with horses. This is something they grew out of; it's your turn to grow up. I really don't know, SA, why you wanted to mention that creepy angry misogynist cult in the same breath with your ethnic traditions, but you did. I would recommend you reconsider it. If on the other hand you're trying to remind me of that Irish propensity to blow things up when you're mad, well I know all about that too. I am Irish. I have terrorists in my family. I'm not proud of that. But as for an argumentative stand, it's also silly and you might want to reconsider that as well. I am going to ask Druids to prove the validity of the spirit world all I want, and threats of violence or outrage won't make me reconsider. This is a debate forum after all. First the request to believe anything out of politeness, and now the concern about making people angry, neither is convincing. I need the proof.

The "oh come on now" bit: I thought I illustrated it quite well with my Mike and the Mechanics analogy. The skeptic has the right to say you are full of shit, that your argument is gobbledigook, and that you are delusional, when you make an outrageous claim and present it as fact. Unlike the delusional and rather sad belief that Mike and the Mechanics are the best band in the history of pop music, your statement that a spiritual Celtic Otherworld exists MUST be proveable. The claim was made that the pages you offered as proof were garbage, and they were, and yeah, we all know you have disavowed any real support of them. They were just pages to show that people are looking into that stuff. Folks out there are also petitioning the government for money to study the effectiveness of Remote Prayer. That study doesn't immediately validate Remote Prayer, but the results of the study may (I doubt it). But in the end, you aren't talking about a personal opinion, you are making a claim that somehting is FACT. So saying you're not correct is the right of the skeptic, and the burden of proof is again with you. Saying "You are crazy" might be an insult, but not one anyone here actually made; saying "you are delusional" is really just a warning shot, a request for more information, akin to "Are you serious?' or "You gotta be kidding me." The followup to that is NOT to retreat, to say "I'm 100% right and justified and not trying to prove myself, and stop belittling my beliefs;" the followup is to prove it.

Slade, if someone claimed that The Phantom Menace was the best film in the STAR WARS series, you might call him crazy for believing it. If it's crazy, it's crazy. You're taking an atypical stand here, as I have seen you take sides in arguments before.

MC: You called my bluff. I have the money, I have the time, but I am not going to fly to Michigan to look for spirits. It's like 3000 miles. If I even doubted how that would play out, if I thought there was a 1% chance that anything would come of it, I would go. But I live in a city full of mediums and spiritists, just like any other. I have travelled as well, and found nothing anywhere. I may say a thing to SA like "prove it to me," but I'm never really going to follow up on it. And knowing now the claim that all I would see is a medium talking spirit talk, but not actually feel or see any spirit activity, well we have a booming theatre community here. I can see people play acting anywhere.

[Madam Corvax]

I may also remind you that Druids every year used to hang a handsome young man (impersonating Sun-God) on a tree for three days and cut off his genitalia till he bleeds to death so the semen and blood would fertilise the Earth Mother. I may be a little vague on the details, but it was something like that. Quite disgusting.

You see, Sailor Abbey, I may have a nasty character, but frankly, such practices sicken me - and you actually WORSHIP people who did that?????

You also stated that I do not read your posts - on the contrary I read them carefully. I am sure you read mine too, only you do not seem to get some of the points. I am namely referring to this:

On a more presonal level - you see, SA, the problem with me is that I also have a second degree in English, which involved a study of linquistics. Once you study the language, and learn to analyse the jargon used by by some to MAKE IMPRESSION on others - you are quite immune to it. I am not to be overawed if someone is quoting in the same paper Einstein, de Broglie, Bohr and other prominent physicists - should I be bothered, I could do the same, complete with compiling a bibliography. I have written two thesis (MEng and BA), I know how you do it . The scientific FORM of the paper cannot, however, make me blind to the real content of the paper - which is scientific nonsense.

To which you replied:

You asked me for scientists quotes. Now you dont want them all of a sudden?

Which shows that you completely missed the point of what I wrote. I felt a little like talking to a wall, so I just stopped answering. However, Civilian was so kind and took up the argument - maybe you can try to answer some of the arguments he made.

I do not know why are you hiding behind that statement "I am not out to prove it, I don't want any converts, believe it or not". I think this is a third or fourth time I am saying this - this is a debate forum. If you make a statement, prove it. If you can't prove it, do cry out "oh, you are insulting my beliefs and therefore you are not a very nice person" when I call you delusional. Yeah, I am a bitch on wheels. It does not make your statements any more probable.

And since neither Civilian nor I have inclination or means to verify your claim, I thought of this

http://www.randi.org...arch/index.html

They offer a million dollar reward for proving supernatural powers. Since you mentioned you work with people (presumably you make a living out of this) you would not mind taking the prize. But if you don't want money, you can always donate it to a charity and do masses of good. They mostly deal with people bending spoons and such, but I am sure that there are means of testing if you are really talking to some dead people -you also said information you get can be verified. So please, give it a go and let us know the results.

[Sailor Abbey]

I really don't know, SA, why you wanted to mention that creepy angry misogynist cult in the same breath with your ethnic traditions, but you did. I would recommend you reconsider it. If on the other hand you're trying to remind me of that Irish propensity to blow things up when you're mad, well I know all about that too.

I used the example of the Muslim respect for the Quran and the violence sparked over the cartoons to help illustrate how someone can take offence to something of a religious nature that others might find inoffensive. I didnt say I was going to burn anything or blow anything up. I say again: I am not angry, although I have to admit, having to repeatedly restate the fact that I am not is becoming a bit frustrating.

But in the end, you aren't talking about a personal opinion, you are making a claim that somehting is FACT.

I am making a claim that I believe in something that cant be proved. In my mind, it is fact. That is what spirituality is. There is no need to try and prove my beliefs to anybody else. I dont believe it is necessary for a human being to have religion or spirituality, and therefor I dont believe it is necessary for everyone to believe in the world of spirit. Which is why you dont see me trying too hard to prove it, well, that and I dont believe it is entirely provable at this period in time.

Saying "You are crazy" might be an insult, but not one anyone here actually made; saying "you are delusional" is really just a warning shot, a request for more information, akin to "Are you serious?' or "You gotta be kidding me." The followup to that is NOT to retreat, to say "I'm 100% right and justified and not trying to prove myself, and stop belittling my beliefs;" the followup is to prove it.

Ok, so you cant understand why my feelings were temoprarily hurt. I dont know how else to convey my feelings. You either get it or you dont.

I'll just put you down for 'dont.'

I have travelled as well, and found nothing anywhere. I may say a thing to SA like "prove it to me," but I'm never really going to follow up on it. And knowing now the claim that all I would see is a medium talking spirit talk, but not actually feel or see any spirit activity, well we have a booming theatre community here. I can see people play acting anywhere.

Ok, but don't say I didnt offer.

I may also remind you that Druids every year used to hang a handsome young man (impersonating Sun-God) on a tree for three days and cut off his genitalia till he bleeds to death so the semen and blood would fertilise the Earth Mother. I may be a little vague on the details, but it was something like that. Quite disgusting.

Where exactly did you get this information, Madam Corvax. Druids and human sacrifice is a serious subject of debate among Celtic scholars. The evidence for it comes from non Celtic sources and can hardly be accepted without looking at the reasons for anti-Celtic propaganda and the lack of actual evidence within the Celtic culture itself. I would like to see your references, if you dont mind.

[Slade]

Ms. Corvax: I guess the delusional thing was more around the context it's used in where I come from/people I interact with who use it. Therefore it's a bit more nasty than the standard dictionary definition would have you believe. If I recall, I didn't think you needed defending when Zatoichi went on his rant - you handled yourself just fine there. I don't remember if I mentioned his posts in the thread or not at the moment, but I'm guessing I didn't.

Ach: I must to class.

[Sailor Abbey]

Which shows that you completely missed the point of what I wrote. I felt a little like talking to a wall, so I just stopped answering.

Well, since I missed the point, why dont you fill me in.

[Sailor Abbey]

I do not know why are you hiding behind that statement "I am not out to prove it, I don't want any converts, believe it or not". I think this is a third or fourth time I am saying this - this is a debate forum. If you make a statement, prove it.

I'm not hiding behind anything. My spiritual beliefs can not be proved at this time. A thread with the subject 'God' is going to be full of speculation and personal beliefs.

If you can't prove it, do cry out "oh, you are insulting my beliefs and therefore you are not a very nice person" when I call you delusional.

Oh my god it has NOTHING to do with you not believing me! Why do I have to keep repeating myself?

[Madam Corvax]

Slade - you've just lost yourself whatever credibility you had as a seemingly "neutral" moderator around these qurters.

What do you mean when you say that I handled myself just fine? You mean that I did not rant for three pages how insulted I am for being called full of shit? Is that what you are trying to say? Or is it because I am an atheist it is ok for me to be offended by someone?

SA says she cannot prove her beliefs and neither does she want to. She claims dead people speak through her. I can't see how a valid experiment proving it is indeed so can be carried out, unless she applies to Randi and wins a million dollar.

Therefore, my claim is that she deludes herself, i.e. holds false beliefs. SA is offended and goes on about it for three pages. I will not back up on my claim that she is delusional.

Consider this - if I started preaching that world sits on a big turtle, which sits on a big elephant which sits on a big fish, and if someone calls it nonsense, then I suppose I should be ofended too?
Or if I should declare myself an angel incarnate? Or initiate the sect worshipping Triglav, Nija and Zhyvia or perhaps Perkun the God of Thunders? And what if I start believing that a Valkyrie will carry me to Valhalla where I will engage myself in battles in preparation for the Ragnarok, because my ancestors believed in that? Should I be revered and pampered simply because I hold these beliefs?

And is nobody allowed to say that these beliefs are nonsense??????

We are bordering here on a very critical subjects. You - SA, Slade - you believe that beliefs - any beliefs- are sacred and are not to be questioned, because it offends you personally. I hold such point of view very, very dangerous. Because it is only a small step towards censorship. You are both actively, if subtely, trying to "gag" me and stop me from expressing my opinion. And then it is a very small step towards persecution those of other views. And then it is a very small step towards burning ambassies for a bunch of cartoons.

SA - Druid human sacrifice stories come from Roman sources. Yes, they might not be true. But they are there and have not yet been disproved.

[Sailor Abbey]

Therefore, my claim is that she deludes herself, i.e. holds false beliefs. SA is offended and goes on about it for three pages.

I’m really not as offended as you make me out to be. It’s taken me 3 pages to explain this, and you still don’t seem to be catching on. I admit, I was taken of guard by your remarks, I didn’t expect somebody I considered to be an intellectual to resort to name calling.

Its over.

I’m over it.

Lets move on.

I’m really not angry about it.

And is nobody allowed to say that these beliefs are nonsense?

I would like to think that a civilized person should have something resembling respect for other people/culture’s spiritual beliefs enough to not be so blatantly insensitive. Its just polite. Of course you don’t have to be respectful, but you should at least have enough sense to know you might hurt some feelings if you're not.

You are both actively, if subtely, trying to "gag" me and stop me from expressing my opinion.

I may also remind you that Druids every year used to hang a handsome young man (impersonating Sun-God) on a tree for three days and cut off his genitalia till he bleeds to death so the semen and blood would fertilise the Earth Mother. I may be a little vague on the details, but it was something like that. Quite disgusting.

SA - Druid human sacrifice stories come from Roman sources. Yes, they might not be true. But they are there and have not yet been disproved.

I’m sorry, I didn’t catch that. What references do you have again for that story?

Thank you for reminding me of something concerning my religion and my ancestors that you don’t even know to be true.

Despite the evidence against them, the Roman stories of human sacrifice can not be entirely disproved. The same can be said for the existence of deity and spirit.

[Despondent]

I was wondering where all the cool kids were.

[Otal Nimrodi]

Muh... This MAY just be a fever of 104 (that's farhenheit, not celsius) speaking here... But this all seems a bit silly, doesn't it?

Doesn't it? I mean, so SA believes something, MC and Civ2 believe something else. Look, WHEN I checked, this thread was to find out how many Christians the forums had, so you CAN'T say that.... What was I saying? Can't say... Right... Can't say that the original purpose was to debate whether or not SA is loony or not. Not that I think she is. Bye bye. Illness hurting.

[Slade]

They're actually all down the street at the coffee shop. We're their highly paid stunt doubles who do all the real work.

MC: You completely misunderstood me. When I said that you handled yourself fine, I meant that you pointed out how Zatoichi was being offensive and whatnot, and rebuked his points, and I think he apologized or something like that and the thread was just fine without any help. Well, as fine as any thread can really be around here, which varies drastically from day to day.

I understand your points and fully agree that you can't argue this stuff because it's entirely subjective. My only qualm was with you calling her delusional, which was apparently just misunderstood semantics/definitions of the word, which I explained in my previous post. Sure, people may be offended to have their beliefs questioned, and it's not my place to stop inquiry. I just misinterpreted a portion of what you wrote.

MC/SA: Obviously, just because you can't disprove something doesn't mean we should believe it, since it's up to the person making the claim to point out its existence, not the lack-thereof, whether it's stories of sacrifice or spirits and what-not. How much weight potential proof something may have is another story entirely, and one I'm not getting into.

Editorium: SA: You shouldn't be taking shots at MC when you think she's insulting you, either. And in retrospect, pointing out flaws in making scientific inquiry into a spiritual belief system doesn't count as a personal attack, which has already been said, but I missed reading some of the posts where said accusations were going on.

This post has been edited by Slade: 14 March 2006 - 03:51 PM