[J m HofMarN]

Your argument that Saddam is so evil is only hurting your total argument in favor of the US. You're comparing him to Hitler but never mention that we were allied with him.

Your continued assertion that terrorists will run Iraq if we leave is horse shit. These people blow themselves up outside police stations. Do you really think they have what it takes to make it in government? They'd be ousted in weeks.

And you're only stating the obvious. Of course the rebels want to install their own government (which would likely not be Saddam) That's generally what happens in a rebellion. Your speculation that it would be an evil terrorist dictatorship of doom is just an example of the Bush ideology of "you're with us or with the terrorists" You act as though the rebels in Iraq must be evil simply because they oppose us.

And no, Iraqs democracy will only be able to choose leaders friendly to the US. That is an appostate government. And what's more torture and murder continue to be comitted by Iraqi authorities against any who are thought to be involved in the rebellion. Here's the opposing arguments:

I point out:

100000 DEAD IRAQIS
Thousands of Iraqis held without charges and tortured
A military occupation from another country.
The squandering of funds meant to rebuild Iraq by American corporations.
The monopolization of much of Iraq's wealth by the aforementioned.

You point out:

"Democracy is super fun! Hurray!"

I may give in that America is only in Iraq for economic purposes and selfish gains.

But that's still not imperialism right?

Otherwise your argument is just really pissing me off now with sympathy for people who are killers.

But of course the US occupation COULDNT be the biggest killer, could it?

And in my book killing in favor of gaining your countries sovereignty is better than killing in favor of, as you admitted, economic purposes and selfish gains.

[Renegade]

WE DIDNT GIVE HIM WEAPONS TO INVADE IRAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We gave him weapons so that he didn't LOSE the war once it had already begun and he lost the tide. We never WANTED him to invade. Saddam had a goal in mind to take over the Middle East for himself, I just don't understand how you could say he didn't above and still didn't recorrect yourself in your next post but rather again went to USA blaming.

And i never proclaimed the US is going around with anoble cause of spreading democracy and i'm fine with admitting it. Can you guys now admit that the other side however is just as unnoble and isn't freedom fighters?

And I have learned stuff from this thread believe it or not.. despite Hoffman's blatent rhetoric and disregard for nething I say, i've actually managed to learn some stuff when he stops the propaganda and argues with facts. I actually realized a lot of things like the true embarrassment of US actions with Pinochet and Contras, not to mention the Fred Hampton post. I've learned a decent amount from his 12014234324234234 arguments.

[Renegade]

But that's still not imperialism right?

Sure whatever I dont really care. I don't even know why were in Iraq nor do i think it was a good war, as long as you admit that the freedom fighters are inactuality not freedom fighters and rather just a radical rebel army seekings its own power.

[J m HofMarN]

Oh you want to chat about international law?

The US blockade on Cuba is internationally illegal and all but 3 countries in the ENTIRE FUCKING WORLD have asked for it to end.

The US invasion of Panama was illegal and condemned by the UN

The US invasion of Iraq was illegal.

The US dropping bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was obviously the deliberate targeting of civilians, and thus illegal.

The US torturing detainees and distributing photos of Saddam is illegal,

The US killing protesters at Kent State was illegal

Need I go on?

[Renegade]

distributing photos of Saddam is illegal,

LMAO OMG TOO FUNNY TO READ

[Renegade]

Oh you want to chat about international law?

The US blockade on Cuba is internationally illegal and all but 3 countries in the ENTIRE FUCKING WORLD have asked for it to end.

The US invasion of Panama was illegal and condemned by the UN

The US invasion of Iraq was illegal.

The US dropping bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was obviously the deliberate targeting of civilians, and thus illegal.

The US torturing detainees and distributing photos of Saddam is illegal,

The US killing protesters at Kent State was illegal

Need I go on?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not really, but if your such a fan of international law, why do you not care when others violate it? Is it only bad if America violates it but if anyone else does we should turn the other cheek?

Btw what does killing US protestors have to do with international law lol..

btw maybe i'm a fool but why would an embargo on a country be illegal? Isn't it our right to determine who we want to trade with?

This post has been edited by Renegade: 24 July 2005 - 01:02 AM

[J m HofMarN]

I admit that Zarqawi and his ilk do NOT have Iraq's best interests in mind. But if you look at the demographics of resistance fighters killed anywhere you'll see that only 10% or less are foreigners.

And here's another thing, straight formn the mouth of my hero Che Guevara. I like to use this often.

"A guerilla effort cannot operate without support from the people"

Think about that a bit.

If I were to decide to wage war against the government in your town, I'm sure you'd do your duty as a good American and nark me out.

So, if the people in Iraq "am love united states of freedom" than why does the guerilla warfare continue?

The rebels have to have popular support. It's just the same as in Vietnam. You can't win a guerilla war without the support of the people. It's never happened.

I think many in the resistance, especially the men in the trenches, have nothing but Iraq's best interests and their own freedom on their minds. Many of the leaders are good as well, for instance I have nothing but respect for Muqtada Al Sadr.

Equating all resistance members with terrorists is just an either-or argument.

If they're against us than they're terrorists. The real situation is much different. I'm sure you also failed to notice that Al Sadr has ordered for the capture or killing of Al Zarqawi.

Also, I'm glad you did learn things here, and I'd certainly encourage you to do your own reading on the subjects. I've made my admissions and I've enjoyed our debates immensely. Thanks.

[Renegade]

You haven't admitted your wrong on anythign what you talking about :/.

And i'm glad Che is your hero, he's much better than Castro or any freedom fighter. Even though i disagree with Che on virtually everything, I think he was a man of idealogy who fought for what he believed in and never sold out for power unlike the others.

This post has been edited by Renegade: 24 July 2005 - 01:06 AM

[J m HofMarN]

I don't see any reason why Saddam shouldnt have had WMDs if the US was allowed to. That's kind of like having an AK47 and telling your neighbor he's not allowed to own a slingshot. I don't agree with a lot of what Saddam did but the US has done far worse. Between the two Saddam is the lesser evil, and what's more he is an Iraqi.

Btw what does killing US protestors have to do with international law lol..

What does killing Iraqi dissidents have to do with international law for that matter?

The US blockade is illegal because we prevent ships that have visited Cuba from docking in the US. That creates an economic blockade against Cuba by making it unecessarily difficult for foreign businesses to trade with them.

[J m HofMarN]

Castro sold out?

The CIA offered him a bribe to join them and he turned them down, and then had to ask the USSR for help to keep the US from taking over his country. That's not a sell out in my book.

And the reason I didn't admit that the freedom fighters are evil is because they're not. I admitted that the terrorists in Iraq are evil, and you apparently think that the terrorists and freedom fighters are one in the same, so you can count it as a victory.

And if you like Che, perhaps you should do research into the capitalist pig who helped torture and murder him, a CIA agent named Felix Rodriguez. Rodriguez was there on behalf of Lyndon Johnson to ensure that Guevara died.

[Renegade]

What does killing Iraqi dissidents have to do with international law for that matter?

The US blockade is illegal because we prevent ships that have visited Cuba from docking in the US. That creates an economic blockade against Cuba by making it unecessarily difficult for foreign businesses to trade with them.

It doesn't. But once he invaded Kuwait and got owned by the UN coalition he had to agree to resolutions by the UN and he later violated em so thus thats a violation of international law.

On the second part what you mean? If a US ship docks in Cuba its not allowed to dock again in US or other countries cant? Explain, I don't know much about the blockade besides that we don't personally trade with them

[Renegade]

Castro sold out?

The CIA offered him a bribe to join them and he turned them down, and then had to ask the USSR for help to keep the US from taking over his country. That's not a sell out in my book.

And the reason I didn't admit that the freedom fighters are evil is because they're not. I admitted that the terrorists in Iraq are evil, and you apparently think that the terrorists and freedom fighters are one in the same, so you can count it as a victory.

And if you like Che, perhaps you should do research into the capitalist pig who helped torture and murder him, a CIA agent named Felix Rodriguez. Rodriguez was there on behalf of Lyndon Johnson to ensure that Guevara died.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't say he sold out but he just turned into a dictator like every other person that opposes America. Even if he did it for a noble cause, he still ended up himself in a place of power where as Che could of been second in command and choose to leave to fight for his cause elsewhere. I have more respect for him. And yes i know the backround on how he was killed/assasinated .

You've called terrorist organizations freedom fighters though, everytime I bring up a terrorist act or person you just say thier freedom fighters. Haven't seen you really ever make a clear distinction till maybe your last couple posts where you've softened up on who is a terrorist and who's not. And I still don't remember anytime you've admitted your wrong .

[J m HofMarN]

So because he violated a treaty that he was literally forced to sign that's a reason to invade his country? Seems pretty shaky.

US companies are forbidden from trade with Cuba without going through tons of bullshit. American citizens are forbidden from going to Cuba (in order to prove that we're so democratic and allow our people more freedom than them we tell our people where they can and cant go)

But the illegal thing is that if your ship were to carry oil to Havana and dock there, you would then not be allowed to dock in the US. Simply because you dared to trade with Cuba. That's an economic blockade.

Alright, so you want His Excellency to basically allow a US backed regime to take over Cuba so that it can return to exactly how it was before his glorious revolution. I'm sure he'd love to take your advice if he was an idiot. Democracies can be bought. Castro has to hold on to power to keep another Battista from taking over. And Castro, for a "dictator" has undeniably done more good for his people than the US or Battista, so why do you want him gone so badly?

And if you know who it was that tortured and murdered Che Guevara than why do you want that same government to rule Cuba? Do you think that Cuba would somehow magically be able to avoid being ensnared by imperialism if His Excellency stepped down? There are millions being spent even now to try to take over Cuba, and you're arguing that His Excellency should make it easier.

I don't believe that I've claimed Qaeda is a freedom fighting group, but the Iraqi resistance, Hamas, Hizballah, and others are legitimate resistance and certainly freedom fighters. Hizballah has a political wing, Hamas provides most of the schools and health care in Gaza, etc etc.

My argument for Qaeda was that they have legitimate concerns, and I'm not backing down on that. I do not condone what Qaeda does, I simply see why they do it and I agree with many of their grievances. I don't like their methods but it's all they can do.

[Renegade]

So because he violated a treaty that he was literally forced to sign that's a reason to invade his country? Seems pretty shaky.

US companies are forbidden from trade with Cuba without going through tons of bullshit. American citizens are forbidden from going to Cuba (in order to prove that we're so democratic and allow our people more freedom than them we tell our people where they can and cant go)

But the illegal thing is that if your ship were to carry oil to Havana and dock there, you would then not be allowed to dock in the US. Simply because you dared to trade with Cuba. That's an economic blockade.

Alright, so you want His Excellency to basically allow a US backed regime to take over Cuba so that it can return to exactly how it was before his glorious revolution. I'm sure he'd love to take your advice if he was an idiot. Democracies can be bought. Castro has to hold on to power to keep another Battista from taking over. And Castro, for a "dictator" has undeniably done more good for his people than the US or Battista, so why do you want him gone so badly?

And if you know who it was that tortured and murdered Che Guevara than why do you want that same government to rule Cuba? Do you think that Cuba would somehow magically be able to avoid being ensnared by imperialism if His Excellency stepped down? There are millions being spent even now to try to take over Cuba, and you're arguing that His Excellency should make it easier.

I don't believe that I've claimed Qaeda is a freedom fighting group, but the Iraqi resistance, Hamas, Hizballah, and others are legitimate resistance and certainly freedom fighters. Hizballah has a political wing, Hamas provides most of the schools and health care in Gaza, etc etc.

My argument for Qaeda was that they have legitimate concerns, and I'm not backing down on that. I do not condone what Qaeda does, I simply see why they do it and I agree with many of their grievances. I don't like their methods but it's all they can do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He was forced because he put himself into that situation, simple as that. The world decided he was too dangerous (as shown by him invading two countries) and decided to make sure he didnt develop the weapons again to go around invading others.

I don't see why thats illegal in terms of international community. Countries can still sell oil to Cuba but they know we'll get mad but who cares? If everyone just said screw America then Cuba would be fine but they don't take the risk. I don't see why it would be illegal for us to say that though? It's like, oh we don't like this perosn, i'm not gonna be friends with him and if any of you are too i wont be friends with you. That may be harsh or unfair but its not something "illegal". I'm only saying this because you said it violated international law which I don't see how it would but in terms of do i actually AGREE with it, no i don't.

Well he wouldn't even have to put in a democracy, he could even pull a USSR and atleast let others come into power in his own party or what not. He's an ego maniac and already has said his brother will be next in line after he's dead.

Cuba's not a good country.. living there isn't a cake walk. Dunno why you think it is.. if its so grand why don't you go live there? Not being rude just asking politely, why dont you go live in Cuba?

Hezbollah is a political organization but it also backs hamas with money and resources and is one of the chief architects of helping Syria keep its tyranny and even stomp on Lebanon. Hamas might have grievances but its still one of the most rampant groups of killing of civilians and is by definition a terrorist organization. You can argue that its the only means necessary they have to fight, but none the less they are terrorists.

[J m HofMarN]

hehe I've reduced you to the childish argument of "well if you His Excellency so much why don't you go marry him?" that's a retort I havnt heard since high school, thanks.

And I believe that when all the countries on earth except 3 vote against something that means it should stop, right? Bush carries on the blockade against the will of the entire world, doesn't that make him as bad as Saddam?

You really just want to see Cuba be taken over by your bullshit democracy don't you? You're not going to quit bitching until Cuba flies the American flag and His Excellency has been tortured to death like the US wants to do? The fuck problem do you have with Cuban sovereignty?

Castro has to hold on to power because other people might be open to bribes. The US is the reason Cuba has taken what measures it has. I've already demonstrated that most governmetns can be subverted through American bribery. You just don't seem to care and you still havn't admitted that anything we do is horrific imperialism deserving to be lumped together as one massive crime against humanity.

If Hizballah backs Hamas than that only makes me think more of them. Your kind are all the same. You see poor folks kill to defend their homes and families and you call it a crime, but rich people can send their servants to murder thousands and you'll pass it off as a mistake or a war on terror or peacekeeping or some such bullshit.

The Zionist Entity's American backed terrorists have killed more people than the Palestinian freedom fighters can ever hope to. The Zionist Entity is the true terrorist group and I very much hope for its defeat.