[Renegade]

Renegade- Ok ok you proved your point, it really IS the poor countries fault that they are poor. And for that reason we don't have to have any pity for them and can take whatever we want, cuz that's just their natural state. Just like Muslims would just be aimlessly blowing themselves up if America hadn't given them a target.

I didnt even say anything that had anything to do with that.... the point is countries that are successful are generally capatalistic... just a simple observation... and not all of em have had it easy either, ie. Japan post WWII.

[J m HofMarN]

James:

Or got beat up

This really represents the idiotic mentality you've put forth, and the general idea many in America had before nine eleven.

You don't give a damn about Otal because he's not your allie, and you assume that if he ever does anything you'll be able to kick his ass. And so you just assume that he'll never do anything because he realizes his inherent inferiority. And so you happily ignore his views and screw him over in the interests of you and your allies until one day Otal shoves a 747 up your ass. Yup, you're a typical American, never worry about other cultures or nations until they bother you, and then when they do you'll wonder what you ever did to them.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 22 July 2005 - 10:20 PM

[Renegade]

Renegade- We could have done a better job dismantling Al Qaida if we'd conducted an a surgical strike against them using delta force, rangers, navy seals, etc. Instead George Bush "went out tiger hunting with his elephant and gun, in case of accidents he always took his mom" and so now we have an even less stable Afghanistan, and the regions around it are less stable, and nothing has occured in the so-called war on terror except a dramatic increase in attacks.

Umm.. the Taliban ACTIVELY, and when I say actively I mean literally and knowingly gave them resources/shelter to do what they wanted. You couldn't just go oh ya lets send a few delta force members and root em out!

And its not less stable, it might be just as shitty, but the country basically same as it was before (except now the govt isn't actively killing its own civilians)

[J m HofMarN]

Renegade- For your entire argument you've been passing the blame onto the weak, the poor and the oppressed. I can go back and point out specific instances but I'd rather not. Here's a few examples:

claiming that poor countries governments are corrupt because they are inherently corrupt.
claiming that it is the fault of people in poor countries that US corporations exploit them.
claiming that Islam is what's wrong with the middle east.

And those are just the ones I remember off the bat.

[J m HofMarN]

I agree with you, the Civilians in Afghanistan, women in particular, are likely better off, but that comes at the price of tyranny on the part of the US, of torturing prisoners and capturing or killing any thought to be Taliban sympathizers. So really they still live in fear, so I think things are very much the same.

So if things are the same in Afghanistan, if Iraq is UNDENIABLY worse off now, and if terrorist attacks have increased, than just what has this war achieved if anything?

[Renegade]

Renegade- For your entire argument you've been passing the blame onto the weak, the poor and the oppressed. I can go back and point out specific instances but I'd rather not. Here's a few examples:

claiming that poor countries governments are corrupt because they are inherently corrupt.
claiming that it is the fault of people in poor countries that US corporations exploit them.
claiming that Islam is what's wrong with the middle east.

And those are just the ones I remember off the bat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No..

I never said poor countries governments are corrupt because they are INHERINTLY corrupt.

It is the fault of corrupt foreign countries that the US exploits them.. if you let a oversees corporation come to your country who's fault is it? I'm not talking about ones where America has played an active role in militarily im talking about general ones. IF you can't stand up for your people, your govt is corrupt (not your people).

And Islam is whats wrong with the Middle East, and has been for about a few hundred years to say the least..

[Renegade]

So if things are the same in Afghanistan, if Iraq is UNDENIABLY worse off now, and if terrorist attacks have increased, than just what has this war achieved if anything?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Terrorist attacks increase because its war ... . It's like me saying, hey don't go to war with Nazi Germany, there will be more battles and more people dead if you do so just stay out of it. The point of the war on terror was to prevent attacks on America in the future, if that happens oversees to our soldiers that is much better than to our civilians here. That's the point in the military, to defend the country. This is obviously ideal, I don't know this war will turn out, nor do you.

[J m HofMarN]

All you're doign is passing the blame and acting as though its other people's faults.

If a gangster bribes a judge to let him go free, who is principally at fault? The judge for taking the large amount of money or the gangster for doing something wrong in the first place and then offering the money? And let's not forget that we've already established what happens to foreign governments if they don't allow their countries to be raped: Cuba, Chile, Congo, Nicaragua, etc. So it's a choice between becoming rich and selling your people into slavery, or getting killed and seeing a lot of your people killed as well. The US is a global thug. Simple as that.

Yeah yeah BULLSHIT. "oOoooh they hate America, there MUST be something wrong with them"

[Renegade]

We don't threaten countries with big sticks ... those are IDEALOGICAL conflicts, this is simply we want cheap labor, give it to us or we'll leave ur country and go to the next poor country.

And I'm saying in a capatalist system, corporations are realistically gonna be seeking the largest profit they can get, thus, its the job of foreign govt's to protect their civilians.

This post has been edited by Renegade: 22 July 2005 - 10:25 PM

[J m HofMarN]

Yeah, it's better that a hundred thousand Iraqi civilians should die than a single American civilian, once again because we are superior. Cut the crap, you sound like a slightly more intelligent version of our friend James.

[J m HofMarN]

of course they're idealogical, because if we came out and admitted that it was just a campaign to trade foreign blood for profit people might realize that it was wrong. But by demonizing those we attack we can make it look like they're evil and must be killed. For instance, Iraq was very very evil because their country was in the wrong place, IE atop some oil.

And I'm saying in a capatalist system, corporations are realistically gonna be seeking the largest profit they can get, thus, its the job of foreign govt's to protect their civilians, [not our job]

Yeah that makes PERFECT sense. I think that's the Taliban's argument in a nutshell:

And I'm saying in a terroristist system, terrorists are realistically gonna be seeking the largest body count they can get, thus, its the job of foreign govt's to protect their civilians, [not our job]

- Mullah Muhammad Omar

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 22 July 2005 - 10:29 PM

[Renegade]

Yeah, it's better that a hundred thousand Iraqi civilians should die than a single American civilian, once again because we are superior. Cut the crap, you sound like a slightly more intelligent version of our friend James.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nothing can be done about people who enjoy killing their own civilians. I don't think anyone could of predicted that terrorists would be so retarded that they would even go as far as to kill their own civilians on purpose.

Eitherway, Saddams mass graves < hopeful product of a free Iraq

[Renegade]

For instance, Iraq was very very evil because their country was in the wrong place, IE atop some oil.

No.. Iraq was poor cause it had a CRAP govt. Oil is the reason why it SHOULD of been rich. Unfortuntently it had a pretend socialist dictator who built more palaces than stimulate his own economy and on two occassions invaded neighboring states, shattering his own economy. Iran while being allied with America under Shah was actually having a very striving economy, until it was wrecked and ambushed by the Islamic fundementalists.

[J m HofMarN]

Yeah, I'm sure they'd be doing it if we hadnt gone there anyhow. Like you've been implying theres just something inherently wrong with those damned Arabs. It's not OUR fault that terrorism occurs, it's THEM. And it's not the fault of the West that imperialism has ravaged the Arab world, it's because Islam is a religion that supports tyranny and rape and puppy kicking.

What exactly is your definition of free? The US has admitted swaying the elections to support pro-US candidates. I don't consider that free. And the US stormtroopers can imprison and torture any Iraqi they like. That's not free either.

[Renegade]

Nah I blame arabs/islam for ALLOWING the west to do what its done. I blame em for taking the Middle East which was at one time an area of the worlds strongest countries and turned into a 12th century shit hole.