[J m HofMarN]

Renegade-

If the resistence STOPS, justified or not, Iraq would PROBABLY end up like another S Korea in a few years.

I made a joke out of it because it IS a joke. It would be the same as me saying "If the US government all quit their jobs and the cops put down their weapons my liberation movement could take over." Sure, that statement is true, but it hinges on a very unlikely and insanely optimistic "if"

In S Korea there was no resistence to the US from South Koreans, in Iraq it's different.

like I honestly have no idea how you criticize Bush for takign away "civil liberties" in times of "war" when you are so infavor of them and defending them in other countries.

Because Cuba is actually threatened. The US is the richest and most powerful nation on earth, and they claim they need to keep tabs on quaker protest groups and Mosques? Bullshit.

Cuba has constantly been in the sights of the US regime and they are always trying to overthrow His Excellency's government and replace it with some tyrant like Batista who would not only fail to hold any elections, but would bring back torture and abolish all of His Excellency's reforms. Cuba is actually threatened, the US is not. Do you honestly think that the US wont do everything it can to force the Cuban people back into slavery? It's not a matter of everyone else in Cuba being a traitor, but it's a risk that can't be taken. His Excellency is doing what's best for his people by keeping power in the hands of people he trusts explicitly. Let's face it, the US could potentially offer millions to anyone in Cuba to betray their country and join the American empire, so it's best to avoid that.

Your problem is that in your ignorance you believe the American "democracy" would be best for Cuba. If the US were able to re-subjugate Cuba it would be a disaster. You want it to happen and that's why you continuously argue in favor of things that would allow Cuba to be brought back into subservience. You talk all this bullshit about wanting democracy for Cuba and act as though you really care, but in your heart all you give a damn about is knowing that yet another nation will be in thrall to your evil empire!

No... I said that its easy for someone to VISIT Cuba and say oh its a nice place! A lot of people go to Iran that I know and enjoy there COUPLE weeks there cause its a new place and its a new kind of environment, but thats FAR different from deciding to live in a country. When people start wanting to LIVE in places like that rather than just "visit", I'll start changing my tune. Get it now.. or do you still not grasp this difficult concept?

So you can decide that Cuba is a shit country (even though it's the best country in south America for health and education) without EVER having been there and yet when I provide first hand evidence and statistical evidence you just discount it. If noone wants to live in Cuba, than who would want to live in South America or Africa as just about every country on those two continents is worse off than Cuba?

the Mid East can't have freedoms while every other civilized country has become democratic

I love the implication that anyone who dosnt submit to the American form of government is an uncivilized savage.

As for Iran, your thesis is completley wrong. First off, the "democracy" that got that got Khatami elected which I'm guessing is the person your refering to as the reformer was a democracy based on a commitee selecting which candidates can run to begin with.

Much like the comittee that decides who gets on the ballot in the US? And the point is that Iran took a step towards democracy and Bush, instead of trying to work with this new government and offer rewards for this step attacked Iran and its people verbally and made tantamount threats, putting Iran on his stupid little hit list. Under such terrorism it's no wonder Iranians havnt made more steps towards democracy and have grown more conservative and nationalist. The US is playing into the hands of those who are against reform. Democracy is not doled out through the barrel of a gun, Renegade.

(which while you don't consider terrorist organizations, everyone in the West does even outside of america, so it wasn't that unjustified)

Those "terrorists" or shall I say freedom fighters, are the government of Palestine now, elected by your system of democracy. It's amazing, when someone like Chavez or Allende or a group like Hamas is elected people like you only recognize them if they agree with you. And yet you demand that His Excellency allow elections when you've clearly demonstrated that it wouldn't change your hatred of him and his people at all. And don't go saying you hate Cuba. You constantly make suggestions or demands that would lead them back into the yolks of imperalism, and anyone who wishes slavery on a people clearly has some hatred agaisnt them.

[Spoon Poetic]

What he meant by "Islam isn't a race, how can I be a RACIST" or whatever he said is that Islam is not a race, it's a religion. Middle Eastern, Arab, Iranian, white, black - those are races. Islam is a religion. So I guess the point he was trying to make is that even if he does hate all Muslims, that doesn't make him racist, as he's not hating a race. He's hating a relgion. Not any better, but I did want to make sure you knew that religion != race. Just like racism != discrimination, etc.

[J m HofMarN]

Ok, heres a reference. Arabs were not kicked out of Israel, they left.

http://www.middle-ea...ugees/index.htm

Turns out JM's freedom fighting leaders treated these displaced people with as much sympath as they treat the Jews with.

Great quote at the bottom of the page "ARAB NATIONS FALSELY ACCUSE ISRAEL OF THE INTOLERANCE THEY PRACTICE".

They treat their own like shit and jews like shit. JM's favorite kind of people.

Jordan... ummm Jordan...

You can't go to a dot org site and say "This articke is saying something bad about teh muslims omg it must be the truth!"

These fuckers are a perfect example of zionist and imperialist propaganda. They have pages and pages devoted to supporting democracy in the mid east and condemning any government that's not in bed with the Zionists. They make fun of Muslims to such a degree that it's astonishing. On their page about great jews in history they make a point of listing all Jewish nobel laureates and revel in the fact that Jews win more nobel prizes than Muslims. These people are racist zionist fucks and I hope that their ideology will soon be swept from the earth along with the Zionist Entity!

Everybody- Wikipedia is easily accessible and generally each article contains facts or links to articles not written by the same person who wrote the article. Of course people are going to dispute the neutrality of articles on contentious issues, but it's better than the site Jordan's trying to use, and better than me going to infoshop.org for my facts, though I highly reccomend infoshop for all your anarchist needs.

Why would you want to have an enemy in you land?

I don't know, ask Hitler, he sure didn't allow any enemies in his land.

I once used CIA homepage to back up a thing on courrption in African governments. It was laughed at "CIA is behind it man, your source is bias"

That's a legitimate argument. The CIA is widely acknowledged to be behind the coup that installed Mobutu Seseseko and killed Lumumba. The CIA are killers and torturers, I'd sooner believe just about anyone than one of their agents.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 12 February 2006 - 04:00 AM

[Renegade]

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In regards to the thread, I meant that I wish we could have a debate with some integrity. You know, with facts and stuff instead of constant personal attacks.

And I've done this when... I hardly ever actually attack JM personally and always spew the facts or atleast my own opinions on issues.. CITE EXAMPLES don't just say I do it over and over

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If you're making blanket statements about Muslims and defaming their religion

The "typical" muslim is fine (because he isn't following the Quran completely anyway). The ones who do follow it entirely literally are gonna be psychotic just like any other person who follows any religion entirely. People who follow the old testament without questioning any of it will also be equally violent. The Quran along with the OT are extremely violent books and any followers of em (and I mean REAL followers who interpret it completely without liberalizing the religion) will be radicals.

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constantly implying that they're all evil or violent would be a good example.

When have I implied that ALL muslims are violent/evil. The VAST majority of muslims are not violent because they don't follow the Quran in its entirety word for word. Most just use the Quran as a guide to their life, taking what they like and what seems reasonable to todays lifestyle/society. The ones however who DO follow it fully without question, are violent because the Quran preaches violence in many passages... also, the problem with the Islamic population is that like Jordan or someone else said, its a huge religion, so even the smallest % being violent is actually a large group of people and more importantly most of these people control Islam in the power structure.

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You hate all Muslims, you're a racist,

How can I be racist towards a religion... is it possible to be racist towards an idealogy? If you don't like capatalism, would u be considered "racist" towards capatalists? Religions are idealogies/belief systems, you can't be RACIST towards them. Its not predetermined, people DECIDE to follow Islam, and its my right to say I don't like the idealogy just like it would be my right to say I hate socialism or capatalist or freudism or any other idealogy. Anyway, I don't hate muslims anyway, since 95%+ of em are normal human beings anyway, just like I dont hate the 95% normal christians either.

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You're defending an unjust war.

I never said I would do it, I said that I can see why some BELIEVE it is justified. I have my reasons to not liking the war, but they just happen to not be the same as yours and I believe you hurt the cause of anti war by stating erroneous facts or lies like "Bush lied about WMDs, nobody thought Saddam had em" etc etc...

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Bush himself named it a Crucade,

Zzzzz.. too much liberal propaganda conspiracy theory for me to even counter here.. already debunked this and you just repeated the same thing again.

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The parties are different? Oh come on they'll never allow any real change

How about actually responding to the contents of what I said rather than spewing out another rhetorical line without any basis of fact/theory/basis. I type a paragraph explaining my position and all you can respond with is the same BS RHETORIC like "DEMOCRACY DOESNT WORK CAUSE PEOPLE HAVE MONEY". At a certain point you actually have to counter what I say rather than just repeating the same claims from Communist 101: How to worship Castro

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The US dosnt either. The cia, fbi, supreme court, cabinet, etc are all unelected. The president is elected by an electoral college which does not have to follow the votes.

The CIA/FBI are agencies of the Federal Govt. but they aren't politics. It's like saying "the police arent elected in states". I'm talking about actual places in govt. Anyway, if you think the American democratic system is weak you really gotto look around the world to see other political systems. Obviously money has too much power in this country, but in theory our system is pretty flawless and its execution with all its flaws is still one of the best democries the world has ever seen. As for the electoral college, its more of a "meh" kinda thing. Its basically not worked twice in our history and those were both by small margins anyway. Its only there to protect small states from being alienated and was a way for the Framers to get everyone signed off on the constitution anyway and has just remained apart of our system by tradition. Eitherway, nobody would be whining about it if Gore had won.

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So there's no such thing as a good Muslim in your view then?

Well only a small % of TRUE muslims (ones who actually follow the book in its entirety) exist but yes none of those people can be "good". Jews/Muslims are two of the most radical religions on the planet, and following either idealogy completely means you probably are a murderer or a hater of all other people that aren't your faith. The vast majority of muslims though are just watered down by now anyway so its irrelevent.

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I don't understand what the big deal is anyhow.

Because he'd used them multiple times?.. nobody trusted him anymore..? global security?...

And no, I did not think he had deployable weapons of mass destruction.

You thought he had WMDs. Don't care what you say now, if someone asked you in 2000 if you thought Saddam had WMDs, you wouldn't even hesitate to answer, yessum because you'd have no reason not to think he didn't.

Why would he have done that?

Because he'd used em before starting two wars, and used em against his own people? And no the whole, "hes not stupid nuff to do that!" routine doesn't work when he WAS stupid nuff to do it twice before.

It's called pride and nationalism.

Except most of those dictators were pro their own country too... the Shah was put in place by American backing but he was by no means a puppet to America. He was a nationalist to his very core and wanted to make Iran a good country. And he succeeded in advancing Iran in every aspect of life. Now counter him to the Islamic regime which is anti America and has curved individual rights even more and made the country insignifant, yet no resistence. Hypocricy? As for Iraq, Saddam being Iraqi doesn't mean he has the right to take the country to the take. Just because he's anti America doesn't mean hes nationalist and someone who is pro America isn't nationalistic. In fact, if I were to ever take control of a country, you damm well believe I'd suck up to America just so I could make my own country strong nuff to be eventually not needing any other country. Is China "less natianalistic" now then it was in 1960 because its now more Pro USA?



The US has never willingly gotten into a real war with a nation that is racially and religiously like them.

We fight wars for economic/military/idealogical reasons. End of story. you can make excuses for all the wars we've fought against people with the same ethnicity/religion as us, but the end of the day, we go to war because of self interest and not some racial reason or crusade.

But it is also true, that they are free to choose and can even be good muslims if they're not following the Quran 100%.

NO THEY CANT. Sigh...

The idea of free will is based on having the free will to DECIDE whether to follow the Bible/Quran/Whatever religion rather than being forced into believing. Free will has nothing to do with the individual DECIDING whether whats IN those texts being good/bad.

Sure, that statement is true, but it hinges on a very unlikely and insanely optimistic "if"

It's irrelevent. I said that Iraq NOW has a chance of possibly being a good country, while before that chance was not there. The only reason a post Saddam country wont be better than a pre Saddam country, is because a select minority has decided to use that country as a battlegrounds against America with no interest in Iraq either. End of the day, the only thing stopping Iraq from being the next S Korea, is a few thousand radical Muslims/Arabs.

You want it to happen and that's why you continuously argue in favor of things that would allow Cuba

I don't even give a shit about Cuba. You keep bringing this up OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER. Sometimes I wonder if you have like lots of places where you argue with people and you just sorta throw me in the pile and repeat the same claims off a like preplanned rhetoric speech or something. I'm gonna say it for the last time, I'm not IN FAVOR personally of embargo on Cuba, and I don't PERSONALLY even care what political system they have. The only thing I question is your believe that Castro is flawless and democratic.

when I provide first hand evidence and statistical evidence you just discount it. If noone wants to live in Cuba, than who would want to live in South America or Africa as just about every country on those two continents is worse off than Cuba?

Your hard evidence didn't justify me living in Cuba. It justified why I should live in Cuba RATHER than Brazil. And the answer to your second question is nobody. Nobody wants to live in Africa or South America willingly...

[Renegade]

I love the implication that anyone who dosnt submit to the American form of government is an uncivilized savage.

Wow I love how you literally take my quotes out of context and remove parts of it to make it seem like what I said is far different from my original intent:
"Why is it that ONLY the Mid East can't have freedoms while every other civilized country has become democratic despite the big bad America being there?"

Much like the comittee that decides who gets on the ballot in the US?

No idea what your talkign about but no, the unelected council that determines whether a person can run for president in Iran is nothing like anything we have in America.

And the point is that Iran took a step towards democracy

No it didnt. Nothing has changed from 2000 to 2006 in Iran's political system or democratic process..

Under such terrorism it's no wonder Iranians havnt made more steps towards democracy and have grown more conservative and nationalist.

There not. The council removed all reform/liberal candidates from being able to run (ie. people like Khatami). As a result it became a lesser of two evils and the current president didn't even have a majority in the original voting but got himself into a tie breaker with the other candidate and then happened to win.

It's not a matter of everyone else in Cuba being a traitor, but it's a risk that can't be taken. His Excellency is doing what's best for his people by keeping power in the hands of people he trusts explicitly.

You'd be great as monarchs propagandist. You have no response to any claim I have made about Castro and his govt system. The only response you ever have just contradicts your very arguments about widespread communist support in Cuba.

I did want to make sure you knew that religion != race. Just like racism != discrimination, etc.

Finally, someone who can read xD

[Gobbler]

NO THEY CANT. Sigh...

The idea of free will is based on having the free will to DECIDE whether to follow the Bible/Quran/Whatever religion rather than being forced into believing. Free will has nothing to do with the individual DECIDING whether whats IN those texts being good/bad.

Listen up now buddy, your irrational upper-case babbling is starting to piss me off.
There are a few points which you should get into your head:
1. I guess you're neither a muslim nor have studied Islam. Stop talking as if you knew what their teachings are about then.
2. You've been referring to choosing a confession. We're past that point already - they're muslims, now get on with it.
3. Free will is the inherent thought of many religions, but especially Islam.
4. The Quran is absolute in itself, as is the free will of every muslim. Whatever might be done is considered as known by god and executed on demand of the human's free will. With reference to this, a sinner is not a sinner from the moment on in which he's broken Allah's law, but from the moment in which he's not able to make up for it anymore. I think you're confusing the absolute judgement of the Christian god with the forethought and planning of Allah.

[Sailor Abbey]

“People don't spenmd fifteen pages talking up ideals they don't support. I'm not about to turn around and condemn Hamas, but here you are flipflopping and saying you don't really support any of Bush's evil goals. People don't defend Hitler constantly unless they're Nazis, it just dosnt make sense.”

Its called playing the devils advocate and it makes sense when you are having a debate.

“Bush himself named it a Crucade, and if he's not out to kill Muslims than he must be trying to kill Commies and his aim is just a few thousand miles off to the South.”

Bush has never said he wants to “kill” anybody. Your making stuff up.

“The people who fund them are wealthy white males, the people who are in the parties are wealthy white males.”

I am a member of the Republican party and I am not rich, male, Christian or straight. You must not have ever looked passed the surface to see what the political parties stand for.

“Blacks tried to form their own groups to represent them, for instance the Black Panther Party.”

The black panthers were a racist organization, much like the KKK. Maybe you shouldn’t use them as an example in your argument.

“And by changing a president or congress all you get is a new rich white guy/guys with a different colored tie.”

Somebody sounds a little bitter that they are not a rich white guy.

[Sailor Abbey]

“because the US has the biggest guns dosnt mean they get to decide what nations can have guns at all.”

That’s exactly what that means.

“Cuba has constantly been in the sights of the US regime and they are always trying to overthrow His Excellency's government and replace it with some tyrant like Batista who would not only fail to hold any elections, but would bring back torture and abolish all of His Excellency's reforms. Cuba is actually threatened, the US is not. Do you honestly think that the US wont do everything it can to force the Cuban people back into slavery? It's not a matter of everyone else in Cuba being a traitor, but it's a risk that can't be taken. His Excellency is doing what's best for his people by keeping power in the hands of people he trusts explicitly. Let's face it, the US could potentially offer millions to anyone in Cuba to betray their country and join the American empire, so it's best to avoid that.”Have you ever lived in Cuba? I have known a number of people that left Cuba in order to have a better life here in America. They HATE Cuba (actually they hate the government – they do love their heritage and their traditions). Why do you think so many people risk death to try and come to America. I suppose the US government offered them millions to join the ‘empire’.

“I love the implication that anyone who dosnt submit to the American form of government is an uncivilized savage.”

Maybe observing the centuries of warfare with neighboring countries would persuade someone to believe they were a little less civilized.

“Democracy is not doled out through the barrel of a gun, Renegade.”

Apparently it is.

[Sailor Abbey]

He's hating a relgion. Not any better, but I did want to make sure you knew that religion != race. Just like racism != discrimination, etc.

I know this really doesnt have anything to do with Iran directly but your comments made me think of it. I wonder why so many people are quick to 'hate' some religions like Satanism and Voo Doo, but the then same people get pissed when you rag on mainstream religions like Islam.

Not accusing anybody here of that - just thinking out loud.

[Jordan]

I guess you're neither a muslim nor have studied Islam. Stop talking as if you knew what their teachings are about then.

Then explain why, in the 21st century, people who are muslims go around protesting stupid cartoons with violent signs? Why do they commit terror in the name of Islam? Why are palestinaian and Iranian governments run by terrorist Islamic folk, if they're so peaceful, why do they riot in France? Why are there over 160 passages teaching violence in the Quran?, Why are they so introverted and secluded in Canada etc.., why do they go around burning flags and publicly degrate a peaceful quite country?, why are they intolerant unless they have ultimate power (Israel any one?), Why do all the war mongers from the middle east follow Allah?, why are their islamic run governments so supressive and intolerant? Where does this anger come from, it's seen in every muslim nation. I really want to know why. And don't use the US as your fall back for everything wrong in the world, if that's your only answer I"m not going to accept it.

I don't know, ask Hitler, he sure didn't allow any enemies in his land.

Again with silly little cheap shots which sound strong but are not in any way relevant. I swear, you must be so happy that Hitler did what he did, now you have a tool of ultimate evil to use as a comparrison for everthing you don't like. Nobody listens to this stuff any more. You sound like Winston Churchill, only not as witty. People stopped taking him seriously once he started comparing opposition leaders to the Gestapo.

Ok, so if that page I linked is all bullshit, point it out. I want to see the lies.

You know what makes me laugh. The same people here that say you can't label and generalize are the very same people that side with muslims, yet they have denouced an entire country for the actions of 1 comic strip artist and a newspaper CEO. LOL, talk about generalization! Funny thing is, the cartoon shadows in comparrison to the shit the muslims have been causing. Idiot morons have blowen up property, burned flags, trampled their own to death in stupid riots which do nothing but make them look VERY uncivilized, as they hold up threatening signs. This is a global event too.

Praise Allah, for he is great! Now if you'll excuse me, I need to trample my friend to death and set fire to a building with my molotov cocktail.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 12 February 2006 - 10:28 AM

[Gobbler]

Misinterpretation alongside ignorance and radical leaders. It's pretty much what you're showing off here, in an exaggerated way: The ability to surpress the desire to understand others in order to not get into a moral conflict with yourself.

And oh, on a sidenote:

Why are there over 160 passages teaching violence in the Quran?

Because you've bought a cheap rip off at eBay, that's why. The Qu'ran only consists of 114 Surahs (passages).

This post has been edited by Gobbler: 12 February 2006 - 10:24 AM

[Sailor Abbey]

Then explain why, in the 21st century, people who are muslims go around protesting stupid cartoons with violent signs? Why do they commit terror in the name of Islam? Why are palestinaian and Iranian governments run by terrorist Islamic folk, if they're so peaceful, why do they riot in France? Why are there over 160 passages teaching violence in the Quran?, Why are they so introverted and secluded in Canada etc.., why do they go around burning flags and publicly degrate a peaceful quite country?, why are they intolerant unless they have ultimate power (Israel any one?), Why do all the war mongers from the middle east follow Allah?, why are their islamic run governments so supressive and intolerant? Where does this anger come from, it's seen in every muslim nation. I really want to know why. And don't use the US as your fall back for everything wrong in the world, if that's your only answer I"m not going to accept it.
Again with silly little cheap shots which sound strong but are not in any way relevant. I swear, you must be so happy that Hitler did what he did, now you have a tool of ultimate evil to use as a comparrison for everthing you don't like. Nobody listens to this stuff any more. You sound like Winston Churchill, only not as witty. People stopped taking him seriously once he started comparing opposition leaders to the Gestapo.

These are questions I too would like to know the answer too. I will be anxiously awaiting a response.

[Otal Nimrodi]

I never 'Hated' any religion without some damning evidence from a member or former member of said religion.

[Sailor Abbey]

I never 'Hated' any religion without some damning evidence from a member or former member of said religion.

But you have 'hated' a religion though. I don't see anything wrong with this per say, as long as you have good reason. And I dont think its fair to tell somebody they cant dislike a religion because they dont agree with the ideology behind it. If somebody hates Islam - so what! Lots of people hate Christianity. Kind of a double standard in my view. Many people think evangelical christians are wack jobs. Understandable. So why isnt it equally understandable if some people think radical muslim militants are wack jobs? I don't understand why its ok for one and not the other.

[Jordan]

Because you've bought a cheap rip off at eBay, that's why. The Qu'ran only consists of 114 Surahs (passages).

Yikes, you were just filled with answers. 160 sentences, there happy? Passage from the bible, book, etc.. Semantics shamantics.

BECAUSE, sailor abbey, they are staunch liberals. Don't you get it, it's so old now, you must condemn and hate your country for eveything, yet embrace every other culture. This makes you open minded and therefore an intellect. You can talk about how evil the USA is over a ROTI roll while your friend sits acorss the table smelling like Tom's All natural deodrant.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 12 February 2006 - 10:53 AM