[Sailor Abbey]

Abby- They try to blame it on cultural differences or the fact that, more absurdly, they "hate our freedom" but would you blow up someone because you don't like their culture?

No I wouldnt. But I also wouldnt make my girlfriend/wife cover her body from head to toe when she went out in public. I can honestly say that I don't get most of the stuff muslims do - and not just the radicals, even the normal ones. I'm just not on that page.

[Sailor Abbey]

US government is responsible for a lot of the problems in the middle east,

Some Muslims fault the US for showing off too much sexuality, especially the women, but you don't blow up a mess hall of American soldiers because you saw a woman's leg one time.

The US governemtn may verywell be responsible for a lot of problems in the middle east - but they are not the only countries. Many of the middle easts problems are directly due to middle eastern countries. Every country on the planet is looking out for number one, and will break thier own laws and international laws to get what they want.

As far as a woman showing a little leg - she does run the risk of being beaten to death.

[J m HofMarN]

But I also wouldnt make my girlfriend/wife cover her body from head to toe when she went out in public.

The body covering has a lot of reasoning, and it's no longer enforced in any way in most of the Arab world. However here are the reasons for it:

Females with fair unblemished skin are considered more attractive, and by covering up it gives them a kind of sunblock from driving sand and the desert sun.

It is thought to protect a woman's modesty and keep men from gawking at her.

Those are the two main reasons. I'm not saying it's right, but it's not just to be cruel to women, and many of those who wear them aren't forced but do it voluntarily as it's a part of their religious beliefs. A lot of the stuff in Islam is based as much on common sense as it is on religion. The dual reasoning for Burqas is one example, but there's also their stringent code on the handling of food (similiar to Kosher) and their ideas about cleanliness(ritually washing 5 times a day) are also very helpful in keeping down disease.

And yes certainly some Arab countries could be doing more, but a lot of those countries are either held back by fear of the US or by bribes from the US. The problems in Iran are a good illustraion. I ran held elections and elected a reformer. Instead of working with him or trying to show respect for Iranian democracy, the US declared Iran an axis of evil and surrounded them on both sides. That ruined any chance of democratic reform there.

[Renegade]

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racist statements agaisnt Muslims,
justifying pretty nearly any war the US has made,
stating that the US shouldn't have to work with the UN,
making statements that liberal members of religions are not really religious,
etc etc
You think like a neo con, you can call yourself an anarchist or a Maoist or a Freudian but you're still basically a neo con.

How can I be racist against Muslims.. there a religion not an ethnicity. And when have I said something that is so outrageous against muslims..
As for wars, I dunno what ur talking about since the only wars we ever REALLY talk is the Iraq war and I never said I'd do what Bush did if I was in his shoes, i merely pointed out that it wasn't really SO outrageous that he thought Saddam had WMDs.. as for the religious argument i'm getting ZZzzzz over it. Anybody can call themselves a member of a religion... practically the entire globe is part of religion but those who are TRULY religious are the only ones who count. The reason is simple, religion isn't an "idealogy" that you can pick and take the good from, its a complete way of life.. the entire premise is that ur holy book is perfect and virtually written by god, so by not doing certain things u invalidate the very idea that your religion is flawless and omnipotent. Neway, this has nothing to do with racism or some random hate for religion, its an opinion on religion(s) in general so dunno how its even relevant.

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No, you've never ever supported the Iraq war have you?

All I've done is counter some of your blatently biased arguments against it.. if i wanted to I could sit here and make coherent arguments on why we shouldn't of gone too I just don't bother. I ain't pro Iraq war though I don't think Bush is on a crusade to kill Muslims like you do either.

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The problem is that while the republicans are heading towards fascism the democrats are incontinently following along so as not to seem unpatriotic.

Apparently you don't follow American politics or the Congress at all so this is sort of a mute argument. Come back to me when you watch some news, look at the leaders of each party and there platforms. I hate it when kids and uneducated people spew how the parties are the same when they aren't at all. The only reason they seem similar in any way is because both are forced to compromise because of the way the congress works in terms of majority style/filibuster/and people being in general too fickle to stick with an idealogy. Trust me, if either party had full control of the house and the presidency we'd REALLY either be living in a fascist state or a quasi socialist state.

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However most nations have a supreme court-like body as well as a constitution, and there are elections in just about every country.

Very few countries have DIRECT elections of EVERY member of govt though... even in parliamenty systems you vote for a party rather than a candidate and the prime ministers are generally just the head of party. Anyway, it be quite easy to make change in this country by just changing a chamber of congress or the president.

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So you're saying that Muslims are inherently not good people if they follow the Quran properly? Religion isn't a hard fast rule, and you can indeed be a good person and a good Muslim if you think for yourself. You can't consult the Quran on every matter, that's why Allah gave people free will.

Well if you follow the Quran completely without question, which is what every religion asks its members to do, no you can't be a good person (just like you can't be a good person if you follow ANY religious text completely, except for maybe some of the lovey dovey ones like Buddhist [which isn't a religion to begin with so irrelevent]). And no Allah gave people free will to DECIDE whether or not to follow his holy book, not to decide independently whether whats in it is good or not. Ouch that had to hurt

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The word of the chief UN weapons inspector matters a bit more than the word of some doddering fascist fool from Texas.

What are you talking about? This isn't even the point, the point is that both were based on opinion, NOT fact. His word is irrelevent, he wasn't stating what he believed to be a fact, he was stating his personal opinion on the matter. Furthermore, he admitted that Saddam didn't prove he got rid of his bombs and thus he screwed himself over (everybody knows he didn't on purpose for one reason or another and I highly doubt you didn't think he had WMDs either before we went in, you were just crying about how his WMDs were given by us so we shouldn't of gone in because of that, but not because he didn't have em at all)

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I mean the military, or some of the underground groups such as Ansar Al Islam. Saddam was in no way an immediate threat and it would have been easy to wait until he kieled over even without an immediate move to overthrow him. But, much with His Excellency, the US regime considers anyone who refuses to serve them to be a threat and tries to make an example even when it's in no way justified or necessary.

Well its not like he ever had a threat to the US neway, it was mostly fear that he'd destabilize the Middle East for the 3rd time if we gave him a chance too. As for the militant groups, none of them could do nething against Saddam neway and tbh, the pathetic thing about Muslims and the Mid East in general is, they are perfectly fine subjecating themselves to an oppressive, shit leader as long as hes "one of them" (even though hes killing them off), but get all whiny when another ONE of them is in power as a result of American backing. If your gonna be against all dictators , be against them consistency. It's a joke that Muslims are suicide bombing now that America is there but didn't give a fuck when Shiite's had a majority int he country and were being opressed by the Sunni / Saddam minority.

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And finally I see no proof that any other intelligence agency believed him to be a threat.

Well they believed him to have WMDs so I guess its just a matter of opinion on whether you think him having them is a threat or not.. I frankly don't see how any fair minded thinking can come to the conclusion that he wouldn't use em against one of his neighbors..

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Than say that Bush would have made the same genocidal war against a white Christian nation for the same reasons. You can't because you know it's not true.

If they were an unstable country that could risk shattering the oil industry, sure I could see it or a country that completely opposed the America idealogically ie. communism I could too. A lot of the countries that we fought in the Cold War weren't necessarily "christian" (because Communists you know, kill those people), but they did have majority christian people.

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You're right. Any minute now the Iraqi freedom fighters will put down their guns and apologize for ever daring to fight the US for something as silly as their national dignity.

This is like the 3rd time you've made a joke to a response that you can't counter. If the resistence STOPS, justified or not, Iraq would PROBABLY end up like another S Korea in a few years. Whether you think this is right or not is irrelevent on my opinion on what it will end up in the future. I don't see any other alternative that could happen if the resistence stopped now (except for maybe a slightly religious state similar to Iran except not as anti West)

So wait a second. You can't live in a country if you're going to say bad stuff about it, and you can't NOT live in a country if you want to say something good about it?

No... I said that its easy for someone to VISIT Cuba and say oh its a nice place! A lot of people go to Iran that I know and enjoy there COUPLE weeks there cause its a new place and its a new kind of environment, but thats FAR different from deciding to live in a country. When people start wanting to LIVE in places like that rather than just "visit", I'll start changing my tune. Get it now.. or do you still not grasp this difficult concept?

I don't even need to respond to this, you've pretty much done my job for me.

???? I think you just don't realize in a democracy, you get what "the people" want, which most of the time isn't the smartest decision (especially in your eyes, cause most liberals believe the normal person is too uneducated to know what he/she wants, so he needs a strong centralized govt to TELL him what he wants). It's kinda a joke, your opposition to America is that a party can't get elected but in reality its because the people won't ELECT them whereas in Cuba the people have no CHOICE to accept the communist party or not.

Do you honestly believe that His Excellency would fail to hold free and democratic presidential elections if the US

Oh I get it.. so Cuba, this country that you keep raving about having "democratic elections" of his congress and supposidly a STRONG communist mass, doesn't even have ONE person who would be trusted to keep the country going besides his own relative? WOW.. you REALLY do buy into dictatorships.. like I honestly have no idea how you criticize Bush for takign away "civil liberties" in times of "war" when you are so infavor of them and defending them in other countries. It has nothing to do with what country is right or wrong its based on principle, you either believe or don't believe a country should partake in democracy or tyranny. You believe its fine when its anti America, but think its outrageous anytime America does anything even remotely small like institute the Patriot Act. Anyway, I still love that you have no counter to the fact that Castro's system is SOOO weak in his own party that he doesn't trust anyone in his own country. It's almost laughable tbh...

This post has been edited by Renegade: 10 February 2006 - 02:39 AM

[Renegade]

And yes certainly some Arab countries could be doing more, but a lot of those countries are either held back by fear of the US or by bribes from the US. The problems in Iran are a good illustraion. I ran held elections and elected a reformer. Instead of working with him or trying to show respect for Iranian democracy, the US declared Iran an axis of evil and surrounded them on both sides. That ruined any chance of democratic reform there.

Lol... riiiiight. How are they being held back? Why is it that ONLY the Mid East can't have freedoms while every other civilized country has become democratic despite the big bad America being there? It's cause the Mid East needs a reason to by tyrannical and the excuse is always America and/or Israel. As for Iran, your thesis is completley wrong. First off, the "democracy" that got that got Khatami elected which I'm guessing is the person your refering to as the reformer was a democracy based on a commitee selecting which candidates can run to begin with. Furthermore, the president in Iran has very lil power compared to the Supreme Leader (unelected) or the Councils that are also unelected. Bush's statement about Iran being on the Axis of Evil had to do with them supporting terrorist organizations like Hamas/Hezbollah (which while you don't consider terrorist organizations, everyone in the West does even outside of america, so it wasn't that unjustified). As for the newly elected president, the people "elected" him too with the same democracy, so it wasn't what America did to change that, the people just wanted someone more hardcore which is pretty sad.

[Slade]

Well if you follow the Quran completely without question, which is what every religion asks its members to do, no you can't be a good person (just like you can't be a good person if you follow ANY religious text completely, except for maybe some of the lovey dovey ones like Buddhist [which isn't a religion to begin with so irrelevent]). And no Allah gave people free will to DECIDE whether or not to follow his holy book, not to decide independently whether whats in it is good or not. Ouch that had to hurt

Point 1: Until you find a passage in a religious text that reads "You must follow every single word in this book literally in order to be considered a member of this religion," your blanket statements are so much ignorance. Religions aren't all about following commands word for word. Have you ever actually read anything remotely religious? Anyone with a properly functioning brain can see that the texts are rife with parable and metaphor.

Point 2: You're not an authority on what constitutes a "good person," or obviously theology either. If you'd actually read into anything, most religions say some o the same key points on living a good life, just in different ways. Until then, do stop trying to show off your ignorance and intolerance.

Point 3: I just thought I'd let you know that your last statement wasn't remotely witty.

*sigh* This whole thing is so trite now.

JM & Renny: Can't you both just go outside somewhere, yell at one another, then have a fight to the death and get this overwith? Neither of you have gone anywhere in a good 15 pages now (I have 50 posts per page, I think).

Edit:

Ex:

JM: "Bush eats babies!"
Renegade: "Ya ur stupid."

Repeat ad infinitum.

This post has been edited by Slade: 10 February 2006 - 03:42 AM

[Cobnat]

All in all, why do people care about what happens in other countries? I mean who cares if 10 or 20 million people die in a name no one can properly anounce (its true, last time I was listening to the news everyone called "Iran" "Tiran") and Im sure that if the US or UN or whatever is the worlds security forces can easily go into a country, bomb it, fuck it, slaughter millions, in just one night and then move out really quickly before anyone took notice.

[Gobbler]

*sigh* This whole thing is so trite now.

JM & Renny: Can't you both just go outside somewhere, yell at one another, then have a fight to the death and get this overwith? Neither of you have gone anywhere in a good 15 pages now (I have 50 posts per page, I think).

Edit:

Ex:

JM: "Bush eats babies!"
Renegade: "Ya ur stupid."

Repeat ad infinitum.

Damn it, Slade, I was waiting for the perfect moment to say this all and then you just barged in and said it while I was sleeping in my cosy bed and dreaming of kittens! But anyway, that conclusion you drew there is very accurate. Thumbs up, good job.

[Renegade]

Point 1: Until you find a passage in a religious text that reads "You must follow every single word in this book literally in order to be considered a member of this religion," your blanket statements are so much ignorance. Religions aren't all about following commands word for word. Have you ever actually read anything remotely religious? Anyone with a properly functioning brain can see that the texts are rife with parable and metaphor.

Point 2: You're not an authority on what constitutes a "good person," or obviously theology either. If you'd actually read into anything, most religions say some o the same key points on living a good life, just in different ways. Until then, do stop trying to show off your ignorance and intolerance.

Point 3: I just thought I'd let you know that your last statement wasn't remotely witty.

The point of a religious text is that a prophet (messenger from god, you know that guy who's like omnipotent) is expressing himself through a person (or is that in Christian's eyes). The book while being open to "some" interpretation isn't just all silly metaphors. When it tells you directly to do something you do it. Things like wearing a scarf and not eating pork etcetc are directly stated, there is no room for interpretation.

And what are u even talking about with ignorance/intolerance? I said I think EVERY religion is like that, i never said its only islam. You guys keep putting my words in my mouth with things ive never said. I think eventually I'll just put what I actually think on issues and what I'd actually do rather than just countering your guys points cause its really just tiresome. I don't sit here and generalize your "points", I just hit em directly. And I didn't mean my definision of a good person, I mean societies definition of what a good person (the basics, not a religious moral code).

As for the last statement, it owned. It's irrefutable by anyone, that free will isn't something that religion gives us. We don't have the "will" to determine whether or not something is good or bad, we have the will to CHOOSE what is allocated to be good by a religion or idealogy. Ya ofcourse theres somethings open for interpretation, but even those have become such tradition and historical in context to that religion, that they virtually ARE what the religion is defined as whether it was the intention or not of the writers of it.

As for me and JM going at it, most ppl enjoy it, no idea what u keep crying about it. If you don't like it, don't read it. Simple as that. Just because you are a mod doesn't mean you have the right to decide whether or not you think a thread has entertainment value to you. Everybody here knows this is one of the only threads in the debate forum that actually IS debate rather than "OMGOMGOMG PENIS" or some other random offtopic time passer.

Damn it, Slade, I was waiting for the perfect moment to say this all and then you just barged in and said it while I was sleeping in my cosy bed and dreaming of kittens! But anyway, that conclusion you drew there is very accurate. Thumbs up, good job.

How so? I never respond to something JM says with, "your dumb". He does it from time to time, but I don't think i've done it without actually backing it with something first. This is how it usually goes:

JM: Bush signed a deal with the devil
Me: No he didn't, your a fool.......... because of R,S,T,U,V,W,X,Y,Z...

As for people who name call, I'd say you do it more Slade. In your response to what I said, you belated me with being "ignorant/intolerance" blah blah. So for someone who wants to keep things civilized, I haven't come out and attacked you personally, yet you've attacked me continually. Not that I really give a shit cause its an online forum but its just rather funny

This post has been edited by Renegade: 10 February 2006 - 05:11 AM

[Jordan]

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It's generally accepted that between 1 and 6 million Palestinians fled Israel for fear of retaliation or had their land confiscated, etc. That is legally defined as genocide as per the united nations draft on the prevention and punishment of genocide. That is why you always hear about refugee camps in Gaza, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and the West Bank. Where did you think those refugees came from?

So you're telling me that the British kicked out 6 million palestinaians? And the rest fled as Jews came in guns a blazing, why did they leave, they must have been threatened or killed,ya? Jews started to kick people out of their homes? Let's see the articles.

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Palestinians kill to get back their land and their freedom. The Israelis kill to tyranize the Palestinians. Big difference.

They lost it, JM. They've tried for years to get it back with war and terror. They were never driven out like you say, they left on their own accord. Nobody actually kicked out Arab merchants and store owners. As Jews arrived, Arabs left. The Jew's came in large waves of immirgration over a period of 20 YEARS!

You make it out to be like they just came in as one big unit and started killing off arabs. Get off it. They immigrated in a normal fashion. The US was not kicking out people, the British forces left in the 20's. Jew's came, without a military either. Just random jews from Europe.

If the Arabs left, it was their own doing.

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No race of people are inherently violent Jordan, these aren't friggin Klingons or something. You can't go about claiming that Muslims are violent when your own favorite country killed three million people in Vietnam for no reason. If you look at it by the death toll the US government has every Arab government combined beaten. So I guess that means white folks are inherently violent. I'm going to have to start carrying a knife when I go to country clubs now-- those crazy bastards could snap at any moment. Come to think of it I am white... OH NO NOW I AM CRAVE FOR THE TASTE OF BLOOOOOOOOOD!!!

You always try to break this down to a racist scandal. Arabs, like every other walk of life want guns, bombs, and shit used to kill and conquer. I never once said muslims buy guns cause they like them therefore they are evil. lol

A huge portion of that death toll took place in WW2, where men fought and killed so others could be free. Vietnam started off as French conquest, but later the US joined the fight because of communism. That's right, people fight over ideals. Ever see what communists do to other countries or more frequently to their own? I'm not sure what past events have to do with now. The US of the 70's is not the US of today. Why not harken back further to try make the US look bad. Try WW2, if you dare.

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Jordan, you're not getting the point. Suicide terrorism dosn't just happen because people are mad. Did the KKK ever conduct a suicide bombing? No. Did Tim McVeigh stay with his bomb in Oklahoma city? No. Did the Unabomber mail himselfe to a university with a grenade up his ass? Nope. The reason that suicide bombings occur is that people feel that their lives are hopeless, that there is nothing they can do against a far greater oppressing power (IE the Jews fighting the Nazis with their very lives)

Isolated instances. Muslims have been doing this for the past century. Nearly 100 years of sucide bombers and terrorists. It's not a recent thing. It's not a singluar event like mc vey, or something else as ridiculous like the KKK. IT's a back bone tactic of theirs. Don't try and tell me they do it for freedom or valor, they do it to get in heaven. You know it, I know it. Palestine is a shit whole because of the palestinians. They waste all their time and government funds to help destroy Israel. Even their own people are pissed at their government. Read the news, this is why they elected a new party, because the last one did shit all in actually helping their own people. Rather setting up social reforms they're busy driving around in masks with Kalshnikovs. They have Gaza now, what do they do? Fire fucing RPG's and other missles into Israeli teritory. Never mind building the place up, let's make it a target for a Israeli airstrike!

But it's all about motive. Their motive is sicking. To terrorize Jews and heaven tickets. Fuck, you want a brave suicide bombing, at least try hit military compounds, not god damned civillians, which is what they do. They are trying to crack the mental stability of Israel. They are cowards and murderers.

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Rightful conquest? Is that like manifest destiny? Even though you admit it's conquest you're ignorant enough to believe it's right that they took the Sinai peninsula? That's like saying that the US got native American lands by rightful conquest too.

They controlled it with tanks and air support, not to mention multiple divisions of troops. THey had it occupied, if they wanted to claim it, they could have. No, rightful conquest is what made the US, France, Britain, Canada, China, Japan, and everyother country on the planet. It's when a group of people control a stretch of land under one flag. This is often the result of defeating neigbours, tribes, wining civil battles, etc.... Israel was the victor by conquest, this is the highest form of ownership. Keep in mind, Israel was provoked. They did not start the war, but they sure as hell ended it, in six days baby!

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Since when do Israelis have to blow themselves up to kill Palestinians? They have better forms of terrorism, like tanks, bombs, fighter jets, and their land-grabbing walls and illegal settlements. And Israeli terrorism has killed plenty more Palestinians than the freedom fighters have killed Israelis.

They don't have too, Jews in Israel are very civilized, but a few of the fanatical groups have stooped to the level of suicide terror attacks. Israel fanatics have killed minute amounts of Arabs but the difference is that when they get caught by Israeli forces, they go to jail. These terrorists you speak of are soldiers, they do not use terrorist tactics. These men are Israel's answer to the Arab threat. It's called defense. Israel targets militia groups. Arabs target civillians. Whose your 'freedom fighter' now?

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Britain took it from the Arabs, and then gave it to someone else who moved in. These people did not live there before 1930. They moved in and took over, which is an act of aggression.

Oh man JM, whose side are you on? Stick up for you own kind for once and stop playing the bleeding heart with post-slave, post-impeialism disease. Britain took over just about every one. Look at in the eyes of logical person here. Britain did own the land, regardless of how and why. They then gave it to some one else, legit, legit, legit.

If I see you in the news with the heading "American commy charged with high treason, found forming a freedom fighter group to help restore the americas to the natives" I won't be suprised one bit.

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Muslims have almost ALWAYS tolerated Jews. When the Spanish were pulling them apart in torture chambers they could travel to lands controlled by Muslims for safety. The Ottoman empire treated Jews justly, as did previous Muslim powers. During the Crucades it was not the Muslims who killed the Jewish inhabitants of Jerusalem, but the Christians who slaughtered Jew and Muslim alike.

You're going back in the past to justify your mindset of today. Muslims do not like Jews. This is the new mindset. Get with the now. People cross over quickly to new ways of thinking. In 1945, Russian soldiers were kissing American soldiers. Less than a devade later, I'm sure you would not see that.

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I give here a quote from Dr. Yousef Al-Qaradhawi.

This guy should run for office then, hope he's still alive, his words are not shared by many living in Palestine.

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You have no idea of what you're saying and your only basis is uneducated assumptions based on racism and ignorance, I will make no reply to such statements henceforth.

By electing people who fund terrorism, but ignoring the fact that UN recognizes Israel, and by killing Israel citizens, not soldiers, I feel my comments are justified. Again, call me a racist. It's a liberals first line of defense. Once that gets played out, and it will since you guys over use it like crazy, you should try 'baby killer'.

Can't move on? Have you no pride? Do you not love your home? Would you not die to defend it if some bastard in a tank came to evict you and take it for his own? Perhaps you can't understand why good people in Palestine and Iraq and Lebanon are willing to draw steel and spill their blood, but I certainly can, and I for one am glad they refuse to simply submit and move on. It proves more than anything that these are men, and not the animals you make them out to be.

You know what the best thing about war is? The ending. Peace usually prevail afterwards. Even if for a brief stint.

This is the problem with your terrorist tactics, JM. You support a warfare ideology that makes peace and an end to war nearly impossible. Admitting defeat is not weak. Japan did it, Germany did it, French did it, etc..

When a war is lost, you move on. This is what makes this conflict different from all the rest. It's tied into religion and the fanatical obsession with divine right. The war will never end until one side is wiped out. Millions will die because Arabs feel they should own a small strech of land that they have not had for over 100 years. A land that has been turned into a sprawling civilization, built by jews. Nobody is barring Islamic people from worshiping. Granted, they may get bad looks, but they asked for it. It's all in stone. They lost. It's over. But sadly it never will end because people will not let got and not let mankind start anew. IT's fucking sad at this point. Palestine can move on. They choose not too.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 10 February 2006 - 06:24 AM

[Jordan]

Slade, I think JM and renegade make this place what it is. This topic is fun, why try stomp it out? Of course we will never go any where. But we don't care. lol. It's not the point really.

I think both of them have admitted faults in their arguments, and just because some one does not admit defeat does not mean they have not shown it. Many times people, myself included, will show defeat by simply avoiding questions or will not comment on certain things. I've done it a few times and JM has pointed out numerous errors in my comments. The latest being oil. I thought it was a main cause of Cuba vs US, turns out it's not. Big deal, move on. It's fun for others to read I'm sure.

I think the deleting of the cartoon thread was a good idea because it was getting violent. Here, let me be the first to admit that I went off on a rant and started to make all muslims look evil. Even though I don't believe they are, I do think they are more prone to violence since it's easy to interpret it from their book. And this is regardless of whether it's a wrong or right interpretation.

I did go off on a fear mongering spree in that thread, I got very passionate. There, happy? I've admitted again defeat. Don't close this thread!

This post has been edited by Jordan: 10 February 2006 - 06:37 AM

[Renegade]

I did go off on a fear mongering spree in that thread, I got very passionate. There, happy? I've admitted again defeat. Don't close this thread!

I wubbles Jordan..

This post has been edited by Renegade: 10 February 2006 - 06:41 AM

[Sailor Abbey]

You know what might help you guys - if you site some references or something. Being an Irish Druid, and a Gaelic Reconstructionist of sorts, I deal with a lot of learned people - learned people who are always at each others throats trying to prove various points. Generally, the rule is: if you have something to say, you better have your references ready to back it up in case your called on it - which you usually are. It kind of a pain in the ass (I personally hate it) but when you present somebody with documented fact, they look even stupider when they either doesn’t respond or start stumbling all over their own argument.

Just a thought

[Jordan]

Ok, heres a reference. Arabs were not kicked out of Israel, they left.

http://www.middle-ea...ugees/index.htm

Turns out JM's freedom fighting leaders treated these displaced people with as much sympath as they treat the Jews with.

Great quote at the bottom of the page "ARAB NATIONS FALSELY ACCUSE ISRAEL OF THE INTOLERANCE THEY PRACTICE".

They treat their own like shit and jews like shit. JM's favorite kind of people.

[J m HofMarN]

Renegade - My posts in reply to you were devoured by the board and I'm in no mood to type the same thing over again, I'll post replies tomorrow.

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JM & Renny: Can't you both just go outside somewhere, yell at one another, then have a fight to the death and get this overwith? Neither of you have gone anywhere in a good 15 pages now (I have 50 posts per page, I think).

I'm rather enjoying the debate, and I'm sure it's informative to people who drop by. Besides, Renegade wouldn't fight me to the death because he's not a neo conservative and doesn't actually believe in the stuff he's saying, he just likes passionate and lengthy arguments about things he dosn't necessarily agree with.

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All in all, why do people care about what happens in other countries? I mean who cares if 10 or 20 million people die in a name no one can properly anounce

Perhaps because we're all members of the same race and that the rich are taking advantage of ignorance and racism to help make the populace accept their wars of imperialism?

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As for people who name call, I'd say you do it more Slade. In your response to what I said, you belated me with being "ignorant/intolerance" blah blah. So for someone who wants to keep things civilized, I haven't come out and attacked you personally

If you're making blanket statements about Muslims and defaming their religion or if people view you as doing so, they're justified in calling you intolerant or ignorant, it's not an insult, it's simply how you debate people who do that. When someone is saying that Muslims kill kittens as part of their religion you don't go into a point by point defense about how Muslims don't kill kittens, you just call them an ignorant fuckwad and move on to debate a point that is actually conceivable to an informed mind.

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So you're telling me that the British kicked out 6 million palestinaians?

No I'm saying that the Zionists set up a state ruled by Zionists and declared it to be a Jewish nation and immediately began to militarise. Not all Palestinians could fight this and so they fled rather than wait to be killed and the Zionist entity certainly contributed to this in many instances by ceding land to Jews to further their idea of a heterogenous fatherland as it were. The Palestinians did not fit into this vision because at the heart of this vision there was genocide and a lack of consideration for the rightful owners of Palestine.

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They were never driven out like you say, they left on their own accord.

The following is from Wikipedia, I'd like to use that as the main source of information from now on as it's pretty well accepted unlike the source you put forth in a later post which I'll get to.

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The Palestinian Exodus (Arabic: الهجرة الفلسطينية al-Hijra al-Filasteeniya) is the refugee flight of some 711,000 Palestinian Arabs (UN estimate[1]) during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, and is called the Nakba (Arabic: النكبة), meaning "disaster" or "cataclysm", by Palestinians. The Israeli estimate of the refugees is 520,000 and the Palestinian estimate is 900,000. They fled or were expelled from their homes in the part of Palestine that would become the State of Israel to other parts of Palestine or to neighbouring countries.

The degree to which the flight of the refugees was voluntary or involuntary is hotly debated. Some cases of expulsion are well-documented, such as in Lydda and Ramle. So is the attempt by some Jewish leaders in Haifa to stem flight [2], and that some Arab leaders called for evacuation of civilian Arabs from the war zone. How much each factor has contributed is disputed.

In 1949 at the Lausanne conference, Israel proposed allowing 100,000 refugees to return

So in 1949 Israel would only allow between 10 and 20 percent of the people they drove out to return and that's IF the Arab world agreed to give the rest permanent residence (IE ensure that they'd never return) AND make peace with the Zionist entity which would further guarantee the refugees could never return. Israel does not like Palestinians, they wanted them gone, and the fact that the government clearly had a role in it makes it sanctionable as genocide, not to mention the murder and violence that continues to this day.

The only way that close to a million Palestinians can return is through the destruction of the zionist entity, and I hope that it happens as soon as possible. Not the Jews or anything like that, they're fine to go about their business and a lot of them are cool except for the ultra nationalist settlers, who are all too happy to shoot at Palestinians. As Dr. Qaradhawi said (can you tell I like this guy?) there is certainly a distinction made between Jews and Westerners who aren't harming Muslims and those who support zionism and the crucaders and the occupations.

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I never once said muslims buy guns cause they like them therefore they are evil. lol

But when I put on my magical time vision goggles that let me see what you said two pages ago...

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The US is not responsible for violence. These people are violent

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They terrorized them for ages and finally made a full out assualt of war, they lost bad. Now they're back to terror again. It's all fucking muslim doctrine.

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Vietnam started off as French conquest, but later the US joined the fight because of communism.

The US joined the war because they were a different color from us and the people were winning their freedom from an oppressive US backed dictatorship. Ho Chi Minh is a hero to millions unlike Richard Nixon, who I can only hope is languishing in one of the darker pits of hell right now soon to be joined by Ollie North and Henry Kissinger.

The US of the 70's is not the US of today.

We've changed our enemies, that's all. The US doctrine of imperialism and genocide and terror has not changed one bit, and you still havn't answered why Muslims are the evil ones when the US has killed way more people since WW2. I never even took the death toll from world war 2 into account.

Muslims have been doing this for the past century. Nearly 100 years of sucide bombers and terrorists.

Muslims only took up suicide bombings in the last fifty or so years. Jews did it during the holocaust BEFORE Muslims thought of it, (quite rightly, I'd no sooner condemn them for it than I woulld the Palestinians) and the group credited with the invention of the tactic are actually seperatists in Sri Lanka who are Hindu and not Muslim.

Never mind building the place up, let's make it a target for a Israeli airstrike!

Jordan, I hate to break it to you but the freedom fighters who fire those rockets are the same people who were just elected to the PA, AND they're the same people who provide most of the schools and medical care in the Gaza Strip. If they were putting all their money into weaponry as you suggest their rockets would be doing a lot better work against settlements and zionists.