[J m HofMarN]

J M has no alternative to capatalism.. he lives in a world of theory which even in todays standards has shown that capatalism is better than communism even BY theory. As for socialism, almost all countries now have some socialist elements (income taxes). No where is actually PURELY capatalist anymore...

Cuba, has been able to equal the US in most areas of civil service and foreign aid without needing a global empire of war and terror to fund it. The Vietnamese government has also been democratising and becoming a FAR better place than it was under occupation by the French or Americans. Capitalism breeds imperialism and conflict over resources. That's the idea of capitalism. Communism encourages cooperation and sharing, the simple fact is that the evil at the heart of capitalism, the inherrent ruthlessness that makes up its core ethos, is what caused it to triumph over communism.

Yes it was. The reason dictatorships were formed was because no other form of govt can exist under a communist rule.

What about Cuba, which is governed by a freely elected congress?

Communism = Despotic shit holes run by dictators or hard liner fantatics that supress civilians, use military to shut down own civilians.

Cuba is run by a president who is clearly not a hard liner or a fanatic. He has also never used his military to "shut down" any civilians. Renegade will hasten to bring up the Bay of Pigs invasion, but those were armed traitors and American conspirators who got what they damned well deserved, and thank god for that.

Europe, Canada, USA, Japan, Australia = Only places worth living in.

Hey I like your logic. From now on I pronounce that the only place worth living is IN MY PANTS.

Communist/Facists countries such as Cuba, Russia (It's going backwards), North Korea, Iran, all of Indonesia, Practically every country in Africa, South America = Poor, maybe good health care but no incentive to work hard, perhaps surpressed, people will risk life to leave cuntry and flee to one of the ones I mentioned up above.

Everywhere but my pants = poor, smelly, run by bloodthirsty vampires, and women will do anything to get IN MY PANTS.

You have a real fucked up look on 3rd world countries... for one the people there work hard, but get little, and there arent much jobs thanks to countries such as the US.

No no not at all, Jordan is omnipotent, so when he says that everywhere but the white Christian countries he supports is a dictatorial hell hole where people lay about all day depending on imported aid from the US to survive while they pop out babies, he CLEARLY knows what he's talking about. Do not presume to question Jordan, for his knowledge is great and his vision is far reaching.

[Spoon Poetic]

Boy, I sure do know one thing - I'd certainly do anything to get into JM's pants!

[Slade]

You and me both, sister.

[Renegade]

That's what it came to in practice. If you had said 'Communism in Russia or China' - no problem. But the theory is not about the supression of civilians.

Well its true in theory communism isnt stated to having a dictatship but the fact remains that Marx put up no theory on how communism will maintain LAW and ORDER which is ONE of many of communist's biggest flaws. In reality, there really is no way for a communist state to exist without a dictatorship of one or at most a dictatorship of a party.

Australia and the US arent socialist whats so ever, infact they discourage it...

The US isn't "socialist" but it does have socialist elements. How else do you explain a graduated income tax? Not to mention numerous social programs however shitty you may think they are.

Actually, I would argue that the democratic party in the US is a socialist party.

True.

Trust me, there is no party in America that has the right to call itself socialist.

If the Democratic party didn't have to worry about losing elections, it would be a socialist party.

[Renegade]

What precisely are you suggesting be done exactly? You have a very clear path if you want to go kill Muslims, I mean hell there must be mosques where you live you can go light a cross on their lawn anytime you want. It's a lot more difficult for people who, ya know, don't want to cause terror and misery to get things done. I do more than you ever have to further my cause, and as passionately as you're arguing for capitalist tyranny it's pretty clear that it's your cause, so like I said, go join the army, or the Klan, or the CIA or whoever else's ideals you're espousing.

Pointless to even respond. You can't admit to your own faults and you keep putting words into my mouth that I've never said and just exaggerate things I say to make yourself seem cool or funny.

Au contraire, my flag waving friend. Your ignorance, hatred of Islam, lack of understanding of foreign cultures, ethnocentrism, and willingness to put the US and American life on a pedistal above everything else is exactly the stuff that led us into this genocidal war. And let's face it, you're clearly taking the Republican side, excusing nearly everything the US has ever done. Let's not forget that you're the one who termed the backing for the Pinochet regime and the subsequent mass murders as a "mistake" And you claim that it's not thinking like that which leads to wars.

1) My hatred for Islam? I don't particularly like any of the major religions, however I just have a deeper dislike for Islam because I think its practice has ruined the Mid East. That's not hatred, its just common sense at observing what's happened to the Mid East in the past oh I don't know, 300 years of failure?

2) Lack of understanding of foreign cultures? When did I do this.. do you just rampantly say shit just to look cool?

3) Ethnocentrism? I'm not even WHITE, I'm persian, so I don't see how thats POSSIBLE but ok.

4) I'm not a Republican and I'm not taking their side, I'm taking the AMERICAN side perhaps if anything. Atleast blame BOTH parties for shit rather than just the "republican one" for 250 years of US "imperialism" as you so call it.

5) Again with the mistake bullshit? You really are fucking ridiculous but anyway I'm not going back to old crap about choice of words. I've now said numerous times after it that what I meant was that the entire IDEA of supporting a person like Pinochet to make America stronger is flawed; I never said that it was just a "mistake" that people ended up dying as a result of it. But again you have to bring up this crap to make yourself look cool in front of all your liberal buddies like OH I GOT HIM HES AN IMPERIALIST HE HAS NO HEART. LOOOK AT ME EVERYONE GIVE ME A HIGH FIVE FOR PUTTING WORDS INTO HIS MOUTH LOLOL!!

I say imperialism, you say colonising in the old sense

Well colonialism is CONTROLLING another countries govt/economy/military entirely. We don't do that with really any of the countries you mention. For example you prolly consider our defense of S Korea "colonization" but its not. Theres different terms for diff things but you can't just use certain ones to make your argument seem stronger when there flawed.

Oh come on, most of the country dosnt even vote because they know its useless.

?????? How is it useless? And those people who are too lazy to fucking VOTE are gonna be even MORE too lazy to fucking do a revolution. USE COMMON SENSE. Anyway, explain to me REALISTICALLY how America would somehow collapse plz? (and no a couple hundred college students bombing a federal building doesn't = revolution)

No wonder you hate Islam, you think the only Muslims are fanatics.

K this is painful to explain over and over. I don't think the only muslims ARE fanatics, I think the only muslims ARE the ones who actually DO WHATS IN THERE TEXT. IF you think thats being fanatic, then you hate the religion at its core more than I do, because you are saying that someone who strictly follows the Quran is fanatic by definition. Thanks for playing, come again.

Liberal progressive Muslims are the people who encompass the real spirit of the religion,

Liberal progressive muslims are just good people, not good muslims. There's a difference.

This post has been edited by Renegade: 03 February 2006 - 03:24 AM

[Renegade]

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You act as if people deserve to go to hell for not wearing a damned scarf.

Reading comprehension > you.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS:

-Quran = Religious Text for Muslims
-Muslims who practice religion based on Quran = going to Heaven ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN TEXT
-Muslims who don't practice their religion based on the Quran entirely = going to hell ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN TEXT.

If you think wearing a scarf is violating your rights THEN DONT BE MUSLIM. This isn't a complicated argument.

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As soon as George Bush and the corpse of Ronald Reagan are hung for war crimes and ignoring UN resolutions,

What resolution has GWB ignored...? And EVERY country violates some UN resolutions someway or another. Plus the reality is America did some wrong shit during the Cold War but in the end of the day if it wasn't for us, communism would be running rampant around the globe, so I'll take us doing a lil evil for the greater good in a REAL world, not a theoretical one, like the one you live in.

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If they provided such papers, which I believe they did,

No they didn't. If you don't believe the American govt, then ask Hanz Blitz or Kofi Annan (oh ya those two are puppets of US imperialism too I suppose..)

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Iraq was never under obligation to prove to the US that they had no weapons.

I know they weren't, they were obligated to the UN and they failed to prove it, which is why they violated those 19 UN resolutions... sigh... I can't sit here and argue with you if your just gonna deny basic current events.

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Getting rid of Saddam does not require a massive invasion and hundreds of thousands of deaths.

So how do you get rid of a regime oh wise one? And the point is BEFORE Bush came into office Clinton BELIEVED he had WMDs as well as the rest of the world and he BELIEVED something had to be done. Just because HE didn't have the guts to do nething about it, or the pretext is irrelvent. The point is Bush WAS justified in thinking that Saddam had WMDs and he wasn't the only one, so if you blame him, blame Clinton with him along with every other nations intelligence agency.

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He ordered intelligence to find evidence that Iraq had WMDs and links to terror.

Erm actually I agree with you, he took intelligence information that ONLY made Iraq seem like they had WMDs and pretty much pushed away opponents of the war. Though I don't think he deliberatly took information and altered them to make it SEEM like he did, he just only decided to look at shit that furthered his belief that they had WMDs. Eitherway though, the US govt believed he had em, and so did the world so I don't see why Bush should be the only person to blame for making the mistake...

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Iraq's future is going to be worse than it was under Saddam because it will now either be dominated by the US, or by Iran or it'll just be civil war.

I disagree, if the resistence were to stop now, I think Iraq would just end up like another S Korea, though a bit more religious obviously.

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You really should give credit in your posts.

Well how else do you explain China's history of being defeated by smaller countries over and over?

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Cuba, has been able to equal the US in most areas of civil service and foreign aid without needing a global empire of war and terror to fund it.

End of the day, nobody would willingly live in Cuba.

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Capitalism breeds imperialism and conflict over resources. That's the idea of capitalism. Communism encourages cooperation and sharing, the simple fact is that the evil at the heart of capitalism, the inherrent ruthlessness that makes up its core ethos, is what caused it to triumph over communism.

Communism encourages lazyness. It encourages equalness without justification. Everybody has a RIGHT to certain things like healthcare/school but they don't have the right to do nothing and live the same lifestyle as someone who puts in effort. In the end of the day, communism in theory may be a "nicer" world, but it is realistically impossible whereas capatalism (with lil bits of socialism) gets the job communism wants to do much more efficiently and actually CAN happen in the real world.

What about Cuba, which is governed by a freely elected congress?

Ya, and all you have to do is be in the communist party to run! w00t free elections, aint they grand! See communism CANT have democracy because if it did, that would = competition and competition = to capatalism and that's inherently not possible in communism. The ONLY way communism can exist is to oppress the people into a one party system. The reason is simple, if they did have free elections, then a capatalism party MAY get elected; if that happened the very system would collapse so they have to prevent any opposing party which ofcourse is the inherent flaw again of communism in that it has no form of governance in law and order with democracy..

Cuba is run by a president who is clearly not a hard liner or a fanatic.

Ya hes just a dictator who wouldn't give up his power if his life dependent on it (and he has appointed a family member as his successor because he doesn't even trust any one in his own party, so he's virtually a monarch now)

Renegade will hasten to bring up the Bay of Pigs invasion,

No I wouldn't lol. I MAKE COMMON SENSE arguments, and the bay of pigs wasn't Castro suppressing civilians so I wouldn't bring that up. Now him not allowing anyone outside of the communist party to have any power, would be where I'd say he's a dictator

[Jordan]

It's bumped way back now, but my comment about Castro nationalizing oil plants is not bogus.

U.S. oil companies in Cuba refused to refine Soviet oil given to the Cubans.

Castro nationalized the oil refineries of Texaco, Esso, and shell along with sugar companies and other industry totalling close to 1 billion dollars.

[Sailor Abbey]

Don't you think that Bob would rather help get Dave a job so that they can live in hamony, instead of being murdered? Its poor example I know but I was just working with what is already on the table.

Only if Bob is a compassionate person. If Bob is anything like me - he doesn’t have any sympathy for somebody who makes bad decisions over and over again. And he doesn’t feel that he should have to take responsibility for other peoples stupid decisions. Bob could also purchase a personal protective fire arm to keep from becoming a victim of the Daves of the world.

I showed that the US government has ignored many UN resolutions as well, and that it therefore is hypocritical to go to war based upon that. As soon as George Bush and the corpse of Ronald Reagan are hung for war crimes and ignoring UN resolutions, I'll say that the US is allowed to enforce said resolutions, until then it's just kind of like having a policeman who sells crack.

Why does the United States have to listen to the UN. Its the United States of America, the the United Nations of America. There is nothing in the United States Constitution about complying with or running errands for the UN... as far as I know.

Communism encourages cooperation and sharing, the simple fact is that the evil at the heart of capitalism, the inherrent ruthlessness that makes up its core ethos, is what caused it to triumph over communism.

LOL! Its called survival of the fittest, and its not evil - its evolution. You cant progress if there is no competition. Without challenge and forcing change, there is stagnation. It goes against human nature. Humans want to strive to be better, they want to excel. Its in our genes. If we didn’t have this strong survival instinct our species would die out.

[Cobnat]

Inspired by Sailor Abbey...


UN Secutary General: IRAN!!! Stop trying to develop a nuclear arsonel!!!

Iranian Diplomat: All we want to do is create nuclear power plants.

UN Secutary General: I...

Iranian Diplomat: Just as I thought... you are an idiot, we arent going to disarm and your not going to stop us!

UN Secutary General:

Iranian Diplomat: WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!

UN Secutary General: What!? Is it my turn!?

Iranian Diplomat: I really hate you right now...

This post has been edited by COBNAT: 03 February 2006 - 09:19 PM

[Jordan]

Oh come one, even you don't believe Iran wants to make nuclear power for peaceful purposes, lol. Please tell me you don't buy that.

We talking about a nation here that consists of people parading around with guns and flags on fire if you make a cartoon about them. One man's cartoon = all the Danish are evil.

"Death to france" "death to europe" "Israel must be wiped out"

More like death to Iran!

What's all this talk about the UN now? I thought they loved Israel. UN is your enemy!

This post has been edited by Jordan: 03 February 2006 - 09:51 PM

[Cobnat]

Oh come one, even you don't believe Iran wants to make nuclear power for peaceful purposes, lol. Please tell me you don't buy that.

We talking about a nation here that consists of people parading around with guns and flags on fire if you make a cartoon about them. One man's cartoon = all the Danish are evil.

"Death to france" "death to europe" "Israel must be wiped out"

More like death to Iran!

What's all this talk about the UN now? I thought they loved Israel. UN is your enemy!

Dude, the President is full of hot air, hes just like Saddam, or Peron, or Milosevic, or Bush, or Jesus, or Musillini... they all talk big but when the cards are down the only thing they care about is keeping in power... They arent going to do anything to anyone, and even if they nuke Isreal, who cares!? All the good Jews left Isreal eons ago.

This post has been edited by COBNAT: 03 February 2006 - 10:00 PM

[ion eon]

You are full of hot air. Why in God's holy name would Iran just suddenly start making nuclear "power plants" when they got all that friggin oil. The want to bomb the shit out of the people they don't like too much....yah U.S. I'm talkin to you.

[Cobnat]

You are full of hot air. Why in God's holy name would Iran just suddenly start making nuclear "power plants" when they got all that friggin oil. The want to bomb the shit out of the people they don't like too much....yah U.S. I'm talkin to you.

Im confused... are you on my side or against me?

[Slade]

Naturally, a country that dislikes the US could ONLY be developing nuclear technology for weapons. Sure, nuclear power is relatively cleaner and more productive if you can find a place to dump your radioactive waste, and we can always make more radioactive materials, and oil isn't renewable, but they just want to launch nukes at people. Nah, on second thought, lets just kill everyone we don't like.

Abbey: You can help people out and not get stuck in stasis. Our survival instinct shouldn't be against others of the same species at this point. And the UN is a group of nations that all agree to try to work together and follow some general guidelines so that they aren't always at one another's throats. Saying it's not in the constitution is a pretty weak argument as far as running the government goes. There's no provisions for a presidential cabinet in there either. Or at least it didn't start out that way. My memory of amendments gets hazy past 16 or so...

[Jordan]

You are full of hot air. Why in God's holy name would Iran just suddenly start making nuclear "power plants" when they got all that friggin oil. The want to bomb the shit out of the people they don't like too much....yah U.S. I'm talkin to you.

I've got over 1000 years of human history that says you're full of hot air. Since when does an abundance of any precious substance hold back a nation from going to war? If anything it fuels it.

Iranians are muslim. They want to get rid of Israel. They've tried in the past and failed, and since then they've conducted minor terrorist acts to try destroy the social fibire of the Jews. Once they have the ability to attack, they will.

Nuclear missles don't have to have the huge effect of the A-bombs dropped on Japan. They can wipe out the Israel air fields and military camps with guided precision nukes, with enough power to do the job, but nothing more.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 04 February 2006 - 09:08 AM