[Otal Nimrodi]

Im against the American administration.

In the immortal words of the great philosopher me...

How is one against the American administration, and what are we administrating?

Cause I want in. I'm American, and have as much right to administrate as the rest of the people in the american administration.

[J m HofMarN]

Go to a footbal game in Europe, people wrap their flags around themselves and run around screaming their country's name out.

Jordan, that's because those people are the same drunken idiots who throw live pumas onto the field and bring a small arsenal with them to the soccer games. But even they leave it behind them when they stop hooliganing and go off to get what's left of themselves reattached in the right spots. Americans are that stupid and patriotic WITHOUT the liquer.

JM hates facists? I guess you better drop your support of Palestine. They are intolerant, violent, and elect one blood thursty regime after another into office.

So just wanting to fight an enemy makes one fascist eh? And how exactly do you judge that they're bloodthirsty? Hasn't the US killed more people than the Palestinians ever have? And hasn't the Zionist Entity killed more people as well? Yeah, I think they might have reason to be a little intolerant of the Zionist Entity. I'm glad Hamas was elected and I hope they fulfil their charter and bring death to the Zionist Entity.

And I still don't see how that would make them fascists.

The above link is how Palestinians get their voice across. By shooting guns, burning cars, and mobing together like uncivilized retards.

Your ability to make horribly racist statements that you yourself don't even understand the inherent offense of is positively stunning. Just so you can grasp what was wrong with that, let me change it around:


" http://en.wikipedia....s_Angeles_riots

The above link is how black people get their voice across. By shooting guns, burning cars, and mobing together like uncivilized retards."

Now do you kinda get why that kind of thinking is wrong?

[Otal Nimrodi]

Clearly, to me at least, these are both examples of people going crazy, because they feel themselves wronged. That is simply my opinion of those two links.

[Dr Lecter]

I think the whole point is that generalisations, generally, don't work. They almost always racist, and never come to a clear conclusion. Israel and Palestine are never likely to make peace. There are extremists on both sides of the fence, and they won't stop until the other side submits. It wouldn't suprize me if we are still talking about the same topic 30 years from now. Really, the only true State out of the two is Palestine, re-forming Israel was a mistake.

[Otal Nimrodi]

But, that's only generally speaking, of course.

[Dr Lecter]

Well, of course, generalisations are generally too general to do anything but speak more than generally.

[Renegade]

" http://en.wikipedia....s_Angeles_riots

The above link is how black people get their voice across. By shooting guns, burning cars, and mobing together like uncivilized retards."

Now do you kinda get why that kind of thinking is wrong?

Ummm they were uncivilized retards. The comparison to Palestine is COMPLETELY off. Palestine can be argued to HAVE a right to be fighting Israel cause Israel yoinked there land and Palestine is now just fighting for it "back". Even the suicide bombings could be STRETCHED to being justified because its there only means of resistence and every Israeli WILL end up in the military and knows that its a constant state of war.

Where as in the LA Riots, not only were the people rioting LOOOTING there own city for the most part, but they were killing/robbing/attacking many people who had done NOTHING to them at all except live in the same area as them. So if a convicted WHITE rapist gets off with a couple years in prison because of a liberal judge does that justify blacks rounding up anyone they see in site and dismantling them? No. Wrong.

1 is that I realize that the defeat of imperialism would harm me personally as a resident of the US, but it's right, and when your comfort is based on the misery of others you should do something about it.

2 The US can't win forever. If we voluntarily de-colonize we might get out of it fairly well, but if we're forced to that would cause a total economic and political collapse and be even worse than my suggestion of voluntarily freeing the rest of the world.

1) You live here so thats just an irrelevent argument. You choose to live here because its the best country in the world with the most rights and the most comfort living. That's the only reason you live here. You can make yourself sleep at night by "protesting" or posting on forums to show how you really "hate" america but in reality, you'd be nowhere else in the world. Sure you might want us to not do certain things abroad but you don't really give a shit nuff to actually do anything about it.

2) We're not colonizing. That's the problem with your argument. Well first we won't ever "collapse" because we are one of the largest nations with an abundance of resources/technology. Even if we did turn to isolationism and free trade blah blah blah we STILL wouldn't collapse. And unlike the past, where empires could collapse because of wars/battles, America will never be subject to this; the only thing it can ever do is fall into a recession/depression which would because of our importance int he global economy hurt almost everybody with us anyway and it would be temporary.

Murder may be financially beneficial to you, but that dosn't make it right to advocate the slaughter of Muslims just so you can enjoy your lifestyle.

You don't seem to have a problem with it when Saddam did it... oh cause he created a sewer system and gave his country electricity (when he wasn't waging two wars, gasing his own people and leading his country into the tank, whoops)

As for the Bush to Hitler thing I was saying that on the issue of so-called pre-emptive warfare which indeed Bush and Hitler both employed using dodgy justificaations that later proved to be falsified.

1) 17 UN resolutions that Saddam violated

2) No proof that he had actually destroyed his weapons

3) Almost every intelligence agency stating they believed he had weapons (including ones that didn't vote for us going to war, ie. Russia/France)

4) Almost every democrat (including Clinton in '98 believed he was aiming to reestablish or had weapons of mass D)

In fact there could be Muslims everywhere around you getting their Islam on and you'd never know it.

Ya but those muslims aren't really muslim since their violating what's in their holy book.... so those muslims don't really count just like christians who violate the bible in every way "say they are christian".

In a world where the US doesn't run the show:

100000 Iraqis would still be alive today.
thousands of human beings would not be in secret prisons being tortured right now.

I rather like that world.

That 100,000 Iraqi's dead is a pretty inflated number imo but neway i'll just assume it to be true for the sake of arguments. I'd also like to see those HUNDREDS of thousands of Iraqi's to be alive too but wait there not, cause they got killed off by Saddam (I'd also like those who died as a result of two wars he started to also be alive).

Oh and ya ur right, those "thousands" in secret torture chambers would SO not be in there if it wasn't for u.. they'd be in NON secret torture chambers instead. W00t.

Not really, just very liberal. From Wu over Daoism and Konfuzianism to Buddhism - they've had it all. Nowadays it's a common sight seeing them praying at a Buddhist temple, whilst praising Konfuzius' wisdom and meditating over Dao - one of the reasons why Christianity and Islam hasn't spread that much there, with their strict monotheism.

Tbh, Buddhist isn't even a religion, its just like a way of life. Sure they got some things similar to religions but all in all its really nothing like Islam/Christianity/Judiasm. Chinese "religions" are pretty weaksauce neway, and thats why they've always been pure trisnash for the past like 2000++++ years. Until now atleast. Btw I'm not trying to be mean about it, but its the cold hard truth.

This post has been edited by Renegade: 31 January 2006 - 03:36 AM

[Gobbler]

You choose to live here because its the best country in the world with the most rights and the most comfort living.

Now I'm no American, so I can be wrong about this, but wasn't there this thing called 'Patriotic Act' which seemed to violate some of those rights you're referring to? And your law-system is pretty much outdated, too.

Tbh, Buddhist isn't even a religion, its just like a way of life. Sure they got some things similar to religions but all in all its really nothing like Islam/Christianity/Judiasm. Chinese "religions" are pretty weaksauce neway, and thats why they've always been pure trisnash for the past like 2000++++ years. Until now atleast. Btw I'm not trying to be mean about it, but its the cold hard truth.

Whoa, wait, just what is it that makes you think that Islam/Christianity/Judaism are religions then? Aren't they supposed to be a way of life, too?

[Slade]

"Trisnash?" And ways of life that last for "2000+++" years can't really be considered "weaksauce" either. Just because you don't have sects actively trying to convert you doesn't mean that they're either of those quoted words.

Ya but those muslims aren't really muslim since their violating what's in their holy book.... so those muslims don't really count just like christians who violate the bible in every way "say they are christian".

And surely you must understand that religious texts are open to interpretations, and that you don't need to be a fundamentalist zealot to be considered part of a religion...

[J m HofMarN]

Ummm they were uncivilized retards. The comparison to Palestine is COMPLETELY off.

Renegade, you miss the point. Claiming that all Palestinians are bad because they fire guns into the air when freedom fighters are elected is like claiming all black people are bad because one time they had a riot. I wasn't making a comparison of the two peoples, just trying to show what an ignorant racist statement that was. The same effect could have been had if I'd had a link to some Mexicans burning down a Taco Bell or something.

You live here so thats just an irrelevent argument. You choose to live here because its the best country in the world with the most rights and the most comfort living.

Your continued argument of "you live there" is getting old and sad like an aging porn star. Yes, the US is my home, that dosn't mean you can use that every time you want me to stop putting my point across. Do you really have to leave a country to say anything bad about it? Come on that's nonsense. And the idea that it's an active choice is even worse. This isn't like monopoly, you just can't move to a different spot on the board because you think Park Place would be better. You make it sound like every day I wake up and say "Hmmm well Poland looks good this time of year, but I think I'll stay in the US."

And even if I did do that it dosn't make my criticisms any less poignant. You don't have to leave a country to try to change it's government, nor do you have to go about blowing up landmarks or whatever it is you're suggesting.

Sure you might want us to not do certain things abroad but you don't really give a shit nuff to actually do anything about it.

Such as what exactly? You never get off your lazy imperialism backing ass and you're saying I'm not doing enough? Please, go tell it to someone who would take such nonsense from you. Until you go personally, join the army, and rip open some Iraqi kid's throat with your teeth I'm doing more for my cause of peace and justice than you're doing for your cause of terror, war, imperialism, racism, hatred and ignorance.

We're not colonizing. That's the problem with your argument.

Renegade, when even Jordan admits we're an imperial power, as he did in the article posted, it's time to stop lying and just face facts.

Well first we won't ever "collapse" because we are one of the largest nations with an abundance of resources/technology.

Right right. Of course the government will never fall. That's cute. I bet it'll be propped up by the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause and Abe Lincoln's cherry tree and everyone will dance happily around it on a sunny meadow in BULLSHIT PROPAGANDA LAND!

Ya but those muslims aren't really muslim since their violating what's in their holy book.

So the only real Muslim is one who makes clear their faith by their dress and looks so they can be easily identified? Shit I got an idea why don't we start stitching big golden crescents onto their coats, that way there wont be any confusion. Just because a Muslim dosn't look like a Muslim it dosn't mean they're unfaithful. Perhaps they just don't like getting mean looks from ignorant racists. Or maybe they just don't find it comfortable. Now I'm no expert on Allah, but I think if a Muslim was a pretty good person Allah's not going to say "Yeah well you're a nice guy, but you didn't grow a big bushy beard so it's the sulphur pits for you."

Hey, you're an imperialist, but you don't wear a flag on your shoulders or goose step everywhere and say "Heil Bush" so I guess you must not REALLY love this country. Maybe YOU should be leaving.

[J m HofMarN]

You don't seem to have a problem with it when Saddam did it... oh cause he created a sewer system and gave his country electricity (when he wasn't waging two wars, gasing his own people and leading his country into the tank, whoops)

What? How did Saddam gassing the kurds at all effect my or Jordan's quality of living? The point of my argument was that just because imperialism is beneficial to me financially I'm not going to ignore the fact that it's wrong as Jordan seemed to suggest. You're just tossing in a matter that's completely unrelated.

1) 17 UN resolutions that Saddam violated

2) No proof that he had actually destroyed his weapons

3) Almost every intelligence agency stating they believed he had weapons (including ones that didn't vote for us going to war, ie. Russia/France)

4) Almost every democrat (including Clinton in '98 believed he was aiming to reestablish or had weapons of mass D)

1: And how many has the US violated? For instance, the invasion of Panama, the embargo on Cuba continuing? Aren't all of those against UN resolutions and law?

2: How do you prove that you don't have something. I think you missed a certain invasion of Slade's dorm I organized because he couldn't prove that he didn't have a board with a nail in it, and because I wanted his X Box.

3: If he had weapons, he'd have had them for ten years. It dosn't make sense that he would only now have become a danger and needed to be attacked.

4: That is because Bush cooked the books. The executive controls intelligence agencies and the decisions of just about everyone were based off the intelligence Bush ordered to be altered.

I'd also like to see those HUNDREDS of thousands of Iraqi's to be alive too but wait there not, cause they got killed off by Saddam.

And what about the 500000 who were killed by the US led embargo? Hm? You can't excuse everything the US does with "Well Saddam was a jerk, so it's ok that Faluja is now a smoking crater."

Oh and ya ur right, those "thousands" in secret torture chambers would SO not be in there if it wasn't for u.. they'd be in NON secret torture chambers instead. W00t.

So your point is that if we weren't killing and torturing someone else would be, so we might as well. I'm sure THAT will hold up in court.

Tbh, Buddhist isn't even a religion, its just like a way of life. Sure they got some things similar to religions but all in all its really nothing like Islam/Christianity/Judiasm. Chinese "religions" are pretty weaksauce neway, and thats why they've always been pure trisnash for the past like 2000++++ years. Until now atleast. Btw I'm not trying to be mean about it, but its the cold hard truth.

I wonder if this statement puts you in the running for a gold star. If not the supreme ignorance of just passing off the religion of a good quarter of the world as "weaksauce" you should totally get one for using "trishnash" and expecting people to take you seriously. I don't know exactly what you were trying to communicate about your views of Eastern religion, but I certainly do know that those views are uninformed and uneducated enough that I don't care to find out.

[Renegade]

Now I'm no American, so I can be wrong about this, but wasn't there this thing called 'Patriotic Act' which seemed to violate some of those rights you're referring to? And your law-system is pretty much outdated, too.

Nope. Patriot Act did pretty much nothing against people's rights. I don't think anyone was even EFFECTED by it. Most of the Patriot Act just fixed problems existing between CIA-FBI relations etc. And our law-system has its flaws but is still one of the best if not the best...

Whoa, wait, just what is it that makes you think that Islam/Christianity/Judaism are religions then? Aren't they supposed to be a way of life, too?

Mmmm, well I'm not saying it as an insult but what I meant was those were much established religons where as buddhist is a lot more independent to the person. I'm pretty sure even Buddha regarded himself as a "teacher" rather than a prophet like the other leaders of religions; that's all I really meant by it.

And surely you must understand that religious texts are open to interpretations, and that you don't need to be a fundamentalist zealot to be considered part of a religion...

Nope. It says where a head scarf. NO room for interpretation. You do or do not. It's like saying muslims who eat pork are just interpreting it differently....

Claiming that all Palestinians are bad because they fire guns into the air when freedom fighters are elected is like claiming all black people are bad because one time they had a riot.

Well the comparison still doesn't hold. Palestinians might not be bad BECAUSE they fire guns, but they do fire guns all the time because its there only way of resisting. But someone CAN atleast make the claim that they are all bad because MOST of them (atleast the politically active ones) are using violence to get there point across where as the LA Riots really WERE an isolated incident so that generalization would be FAR worse a generalization than the one before.

[Renegade]

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Do you really have to leave a country to say anything bad about it?

Because you think everything America has done in the past 250 years+ has been immoral/wrong/unjustified/worse thing ever... you also believe that the govt elected is tyrannical and COMPARABLE to Hitler. You pay into the govt, you remain here absorbing its benefits, yet obviously have a deep hatred for EVERYTHING that America and its foreign policy stands for. I'd just like you to admit that your here because this country owns everywhere and therefor you stay out of lexury and just hope we change course and don't think the cause is important nuff to actually go and do something about it.

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You never get off your lazy imperialism backing ass and you're saying I'm not doing enough?

See the difference is, I don't HAVE too. I've never said we HAD to be in Iraq and I never said I supported this president or this cause. I've said nothing that really might inspire me to go to war, my point this entire time has been that you DO believe America is shit and you're still here paying taxes that directly fund murdering of arabs. I'm WAAAAAAAAAAAITING for you to say, I <3 America cause it owns..

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Renegade, when even Jordan admits we're an imperial power, as he did in the article posted, it's time to stop lying and just face facts.

I'm talking colonizing in the old defined sense.

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Of course the government will never fall.

How/Why would it fall?.... if the people REALLY wanted change in the country they simply could vote for a change in congress and/or president... the only thing that could be concievable is that a state just wanted to succeed which just wouldn't happen because states already have a decent autonomy (though not as much since liberals have stretched the federal govt's power but neway) and would be worse off alone than apart of the union... not to mention no state has a particlar military anyway.

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So the only real Muslim is one who makes clear their faith by their dress and looks so they can be easily identified?

So if they don't wanna do what's part of their religious text, why are they that religion? Listen, religion isn't about "taking what you like", its about following a strict life style. If you don't, your just a poser. You aren't REALLY religious, you just sorta go along with whatever parts of it make you feel good in your head. That's how life is with all religions. I don't really care what "moderate" muslims say because moderate muslims just took what is OBVIOUSLY good in society already that happens to be in islam as well and made it apart of their life. For example, muslims believe in abstinence before marriage; BIG DEAL so does society now. Muslims believe drinking is immoral; BIG DEAL, a lot of people believe alcohol is bad. Muslims believe women have to wear scarves; whoops society doesn't think thats normal behavior nemore, so people ditch that.

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Hey, you're an imperialist, but you don't wear a flag on your shoulders or goose step everywhere and say "Heil Bush" so I guess you must not REALLY love this country. Maybe YOU should be leaving.

You're ignorance to an argument hurts my head -___-... read up to realize why this comparison just doesn't make sense. Nvm, ill spell it out for. There is no book on "to support my country". However there is a book on what muslims must do. If you pork cause you like it or don't put on a scarf cause it feels like crap, then you aint as religious as you think. Simple as that.

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1: And how many has the US violated? For instance, the invasion of Panama, the embargo on Cuba continuing? Aren't all of those against UN resolutions and law?

Blah blah, America is satan yadayadayada. The point is right now, was Bush invading Iraq JUSTIFIED and you did nothing to counter the fact that he was violating UN resolutions. And again with embarga shit? Do we really have to go over this again why thats not violating international laws? I thought we'd gone over this now like a zillion times but I guess you wanna continue to spew out fallacy...

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2: How do you prove that you don't have something. I think you missed a certain invasion of Slade's dorm I organized because he couldn't prove that he didn't have a board with a nail in it, and because I wanted his X Box.

Governments GENERALLY have a paper trail when they destroy large sums of biological/chemical weapons... it's not like oh lets empty out the trash! Especially when you know you are gonna have to show proof to the UN that you did what the resolutions asked you to do. Either he was just BLATENTLY and I mean BLATENTLY stupid and destroyed the paper trail, or he really did have something left. I'd say he was just stupid and wanted people to still think he had em (ie. Iran) so that he'd still look like he had some power, but thats just my opinion. Eitherway, no proof of their destruction = his fault.

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3: If he had weapons, he'd have had them for ten years. It dosn't make sense that he would only now have become a danger and needed to be attacked.

Irrelevent, just because past administrations/people didn't do what must of been done, doesn't mean we shouldn't now. The argument is too weak, you either believe his invasion was justified anytime, or never at all.

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4: That is because Bush cooked the books. The executive controls intelligence agencies and the decisions of just about everyone were based off the intelligence Bush ordered to be altered.

So why did Clinton state in '98 it was the goal of American foreign policy to get rid of Saddam and continually bombed them in order to supposidly take out there wmd facilities? Didn't hear anybody crying back then. And the whole claim that Bush "cooked" the books is ridiculous. People WAY before he came into power suspected Saddam had em, and he didn't cook OTHER countries intelligence either now did he?



And what about the 500000 who were killed by the US led embargo?

I'm not a fan of embargo/sanctions but its a right of a country to do it to anyone they want. It's also shady because the point is that Saddam was evil and we wanted him out and we figured trading with him would just make him stronger and make him cause more trouble. In my opinion, embargo/sanctions shouldn't exist (especially on communist/religious states) because they never succeed in removing that person/party and it generally only hurts the people. If you wanna smoke someone out just go ahead and do it with the military, it'll prolly end up killing less people anyway. Which btw is another reason why sanctions/embargo < us just invading him.

So your point is that if we weren't killing and torturing someone else would be, so we might as well. I'm sure THAT will hold up in court.

No that wasn't my point. My point is that realistically, your portraying an Iraq before us as like some sanctuary where as things were worse with NO chance of improving where as now things are worse(because theres a war going on) but actually HAVE a chance of getting better. Plus the captives now are atleast soldiers where as before they were just anyone who said Saddam likes men.

I wonder if this statement puts you in the running for a gold star.

Lol i was basically just speaking tongue in cheek and didn't mean it to be actually serious. My point though was that Chinese religions have always been too pacifist for their own good and prolly have caused them to get taken over a couple zillion times. Eitherway though, I was kidding and yes I do believe buddhism is a way of life more so than what is defined as a religion though thats neither an insult nor a compliment. It's just a fact.

This post has been edited by Renegade: 01 February 2006 - 03:16 AM

[Cobnat]

Because you think everything America has done in the past 250 years+ has been immoral/wrong/unjustified/worse thing ever... you also believe that the govt elected is tyrannical and COMPARABLE to Hitler. You pay into the govt, you remain here absorbing its benefits, yet obviously have a deep hatred for EVERYTHING that America and its foreign policy stands for. I'd just like you to admit that your here because this country owns everywhere and therefor you stay out of lexury and just hope we change course and don't think the cause is important nuff to actually go and do something about it.

Well America is pretty bad...

And everything can be compared to Hitler, even though it shouldnt be.

[Gobbler]

Sorry for missing the topic, but this one point's just ridiculous.

I do believe buddhism is a way of life more so than what is defined as a religion though thats neither an insult nor a compliment. It's just a fact.

You can't declare your opinion - which is obviously strongly influenced by your culture and the major religions among it - as a fact. You may not have experienced it, but Buddhism has a very strong influence, especially in Asia. Plus, it teaches to not compete with others, but to accept them - quite succesful. Isn't that supposed to be the major function of every religion? Please do me a favor and don't give me headaches with that 'way of life'-crap, it's really the same for Christianity, Islam and what not.