[Dr Lecter]

Damn you, Spoon of Poetry!

[Renegade]

You can't blame a religion for socio political problems. That would be like saying that the brutality wars and lack of human rights in medieval times was solely because of Christianity.

I can't blame it on the vast majority of the problems. Most mid east countires put stupid religious idealogy above realistic political needs. For example, Iran in the Iraq-Iran war refused to buy weapons off Israel directly but instead bought Israeli weapons from other middle men for much more money. Being idealogically against something is fine, but put first things first- the strength and prosperity of your OWN country. This is just an example however, Islam as a whole governing Mid East politics has pretty much driven it downwards more and more as time has gone by. Everytime there has been a NATIONALIST leader as opposed to an Islam leader, countries have done well. Though this isn't all entirely to blame for the common Mid Eastern person, western powers have countless times supported radical Islamic leaders for their own self gain as well.

[Dr Lecter]

*Points out Bush's refuse of aid from Fidel Castro in the aftermath of the Orleans diaster.*

Its not a relgious problem with Islam, its a worldwide political problem. Politics is the downfall of man, when a man turns down what he and his people need for the sake of ideology. You are confusing the causes of political pressure, with the needs of the government. The fact that Iran refused to get guns directly from Israel was nothing to do with anything but political pressure. You can blame Islam all you want, but its just the factor that influences the middle east. In the western world we have similiarly stupid ideologically related rejections of the best options, because of the things such as Christianity.

This post has been edited by Dr Lecter: 30 November 2005 - 06:27 PM

[J m HofMarN]

I can't blame it on the vast majority of the problems.

Hehe.

For example, Iran in the Iraq-Iran war refused to buy weapons off Israel directly but instead bought Israeli weapons from other middle men for much more money.

I agree with the decision Iran made. Justice would have been against them had they used the same weapons the Zionist pigs use to murder innocent men women and children and steal their land. I would much rather use a more expensive or poorer quality product than use one from the Zionist Entity, which I refuse to do. Speaking of which those of you who are politically conscious should be wary. Some peppers and specialty foods can come from The Zionist Entity, such as cous cous, falafel, pita bread and hummus. Always check to make sure you're not supporting the genocide against Palestine when you're buying your hummus.

The ONLY possible thing you can blame on Islam is the idea of capital punishment and the status of women. However most Islamic countries grant women decent rights, and while the death penalty and torture are employed horribly in many apostate regimes, there are also some that either outlaw it or only use it when it's vastly called for. I'm no supporter of the death penalty, but if Pakistan wants to hang a confessed murderer/rapist from a crane and let the relatives of his victims throw stones at his body, I say go for it.

And if you absolutely have to blame religion for political or national problems, try this:

It's the Budhist's fault that China invaded them because they worship a sissy-god.

[Jordan]

Islam is against homo-sexuality and I've never seen an Muslim in support of abortion. Two things close to your heart, so really, Capital Punishment and women's rights are just a part of the problem, according to you, or so it should be.

You hate right wingers here. I'd say part of that is because they are religious. Yet you'll stand up for the middle east, the mecca for right wing religous governments. The enemy of your enemy is your friend, in this case.

It's so taboo at this point. Hate the US, love their enemies. Their enemies are seen as hapless romantics struggling to survive in a world being wipped by the US.

[Renegade]

I agree with the decision Iran made.

Thats cause your a tactless platypus. I'll tell you who didn't agree with it, my parents who had to deal with Iraqi bombing raids because the Islamic Republic decided not to buy weapons off the proper people, killed off all their best generals, dismantled the military establishment, and allowed the economies inflation to skyrocket. That's who "didn't agree" with it. All Iran had to do was buy the weapons, then go back and hate Israel afterwords.. thats real politik. It's called doing what must be done FIRST rather than letting ur country go into the toilet and have no political clout ANYWAY afterwords. Oh but ya I'm sure you agree with it.. cause you don't give a shit anyway about actual people LIVING in any arab country, you just care about the problem in Israel with those pesky Zionists taking over the Mid East cause you know, thats there objective and all.

The ONLY possible thing you can blame on Islam is the idea of capital punishment and the status of women. However most Islamic countries grant women decent rights, and while the death penalty and torture are employed horribly in many apostate regimes, there are also some that either outlaw it or only use it when it's vastly called for. I'm no supporter of the death penalty, but if Pakistan wants to hang a confessed murderer/rapist from a crane and let the relatives of his victims throw stones at his body, I say go for it.

And if you absolutely have to blame religion for political or national problems, try this:

It's the Budhist's fault that China invaded them because they worship a sissy-god.

I didn't even understand what you said.. your not FOR the death penalty and are against people like Bush in Texas for overusing the death penalty, yet you are all gun hoe about Pakistani policy...

As for Islam not having any bad parts, besides those couple, it has loads more and worse off, its application is always VASTLY worse.

Edit: I know things get heated in here, but please don't attack people, just their arguments.
-Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator

This post has been edited by Slade: 01 December 2005 - 10:07 AM

[Renegade]

The fact that Iran refused to get guns directly from Israel was nothing to do with anything but political pressure. You can blame Islam all you want, but its just the factor that influences the middle east. In the western world we have similiarly stupid ideologically related rejections of the best options, because of the things such as Christianity.

The difference is some countries do it with certain small things while other countries do it with every single fascet of government.

And Islam can't even unite ITSELF against the Western powers so I dont really have any sympathy for them when they fight each other in civil wars for stupid shit like who succeeded Mohammed 1000+ years ago.

[Slade]

I dislike people who are ruled by ignorance, intolerance, and greed, many religious folk and right-wingers fit that description. Many other people do too, of course. And I've met very intelligent religious people and conservatives as well. One does not equal the other.

JM: Renegade has a good point. How can you not support the death penalty but support brutal public execution of some prisoners prisoners?

Islam is against homo-sexuality[sic] and I've never seen an Muslim in support of abortion. Two things close to your heart, so really, Capital Punishment and women's rights are just a part of the problem, according to you, or so it should be.

I can't really comprehend what you said there. Is that an attempt at using homosexuality as an insult? I'm not even going to go into the implications involved in that... And I don't follow the logic involved, or the evidence used to prove your conclusion.

As a side note: All of the constant improper spelling, grammar, and syntax around here lately makes my brain hurt when I read it. But do carry on...

[Spoon Poetic]

I think he means that he doesn't understand how JM is so supportive of the Islamic countries and acts like they are the best thing since Mario 3, when they are very against homosexuality and abortion; and JM also seems to hate people that are against homosexuality and abortion.

Or if he doesn't mean that, then I came to that conclusion because I've been wondering that myself.

[Jordan]

What spoon said, I'm not sure what you found confusing?!

This post has been edited by Jordan: 02 December 2005 - 02:58 AM

[Slade]

The syntax threw me off a wee bit. I get it now.

[Jordan]

Ya, that's why I almost failed computer programming. I only pasted because I cheated on the lab test and all the lab assignments.

[J m HofMarN]

You hate right wingers here. I'd say part of that is because they are religious.

Hey I don't care how religious people are, in fact I've been good friends with a few Mennonites. The thing that I do care about is whether someone is a horse's ass. I've never met a Muslim I had a problem with, and never known one to try to force their ideas on me or on my state/country. Please note that Osama Bin Laden demanding that we stop killing Muslims does not count as a Muslim forcing ideas on us.

Yet you'll stand up for the middle east, the mecca for right wing religous governments.

I don't like their systems of government, but I defend to the death their right to choose their own systems of government. And I think the largest and most powerful right wing religious government is a lot closer to home than Jiddah or Islamabad.

I'll tell you who didn't agree with it, my parents who had to deal with Iraqi bombing raids because the Islamic Republic decided not to buy weapons off the proper people, killed off all their best generals, dismantled the military establishment, and allowed the economies inflation to skyrocket.

So because they didn't in a very literal sense make a deal with the devil you think they're inept? I call that being honorable. Do you really think decent people could have fought a war using weapons bought from butchers at the cost of their nation's honor? But of course you who have no sense of identity except that imbued in you by the capitalist machine wouldn't understand that. The cost of those weapons wouldnt have been measured in cash, it would have been measured in favors. Perhasp Iran being required to be neutral when the Zionists next invaded another free nation. And I maintain that the use of arms from the Zionist Entity would have caused Iran a great deal more trouble than you think.

As for killing off generals and dismantling military establishment, if that establishment was loyal to the former regime and thus the US, then that was a wise action. It saved your ass from having to live under a US backed military dictatorship when those same "best generals" instigated a coup.

I didn't even understand what you said.. your not FOR the death penalty and are against people like Bush in Texas for overusing the death penalty, yet you are all gun hoe about Pakistani policy...

You don't seem to understand the difference between "vastly called for" and "lets kill a retarded guy cuz I'm a cowboy" The other thing that I was conceding to you, which you did not seem to grasp, was that the Islamic faith can be blamed for the death penalty in such instances, even though it is very strict on what can gain the penalty of death. In the US our predominant religion dosnt call for us to kill people, in fact it forbids it, and so the death penalty is more to be blamed upon the basic barbarism of macho dominated American culture.

The difference is some countries do it with certain small things while other countries do it with every single fascet of government.

You mean like when the US turned down millions in Katrina aid from Cuba? I suppose that Islam is to blame for that somehow as well eh?

And Islam can't even unite ITSELF against the Western powers so I dont really have any sympathy for them when they fight each other in civil wars for stupid shit like who succeeded Mohammed 1000+ years ago.

Hmmm that looks interesting. Now let's travel back in time to see what that statement would have sounded like a hundred and some years ago.

And the savages can't even unite THEMSELVES against the Western powers so I dont really have any sympathy for them when they fight each other in tribal wars for stupid shit like who pitched a teepee 1000 years ago.

How can you not support the death penalty but support brutal public execution of some prisoners prisoners?

That's a good point, Slade. What I'm saying is that in that case I can forgive them for it, and that if that is how Islam applies their code of laws regarding the death penalty I don't mind. Whereas in the US we've seen far sillier uses of the death penalty for political purposes and such.

[Renegade]

Please note that Osama Bin Laden demanding that we stop killing Muslims does not count as a Muslim forcing ideas on us.

Go read/listen to what Bin Laden has actually said. His goal isn't just to stop "western" powers, he's against virtually any non muslim group, country, faction. Now he hates certain ones more because their involved in Islamic affairs,but that doesn't detract from the fact that he IS a believer in non muslims being meant to be destroyed.

And I think the largest and most powerful right wing religious government is a lot closer to home than Jiddah or Islamabad.

America isn't a religiously governed country.. being right wing doesn't mean you are necessarily religious as opposed to say middle eastern countries which are governed by Islamic law.

So because they didn't in a very literal sense make a deal with the devil you think they're inept? I call that being honorable. Do you really think decent people could have fought a war using weapons bought from butchers at the cost of their nation's honor? But of course you who have no sense of identity except that imbued in you by the capitalist machine wouldn't understand that. The cost of those weapons wouldnt have been measured in cash, it would have been measured in favors. Perhasp Iran being required to be neutral when the Zionists next invaded another free nation. And I maintain that the use of arms from the Zionist Entity would have caused Iran a great deal more trouble than you think.

As for killing off generals and dismantling military establishment, if that establishment was loyal to the former regime and thus the US, then that was a wise action. It saved your ass from having to live under a US backed military dictatorship when those same "best generals" instigated a coup.

Problems with your statement:
1) You still don't get it. They BOUGHT weapons that were Israeli, and KNEW they were Israeli, they just happened to buy it off a middle man so they could SEEM like they weren't going against their "beliefs" of anti zionism. Israel lost NOTHING from it and all Iran got was the same weapons from the same butchers except for an increased price; REAL GENIUS.
2) Umm not really, they coulda yoinked the weapons for money, then after the war gone back to Anti Israel rhetoric etc etc. Not that it matters, Israel knew Iran was prolly getting those weapons and hardly cared considering it was a war between two arab states.
3) Your statement about neutrality would hold some clot except for the fact that... IRAN HAS NEVER attacked Israel nor made ANY and I mean ANY direct conflict with them. They are all talk and some cash to Hezbollah. Who cares about that anyway, there is no way Israel could hold em to the neutrality after the war anyway. (this is all assuming Israel invaded other nations which is a fallacy in itself considering Israel has never made the FIRST move into a neighboring state).
4) The generals weren't loyal to the previous regime. If they WERE, they wouldn't of been sitting back and chilling while lil college students called for revolution; those people would be dead. The generals basically gave up supporting the Shah and at this point America (under the greatness of Carter) had basically stopped any counter to Khomeini (they virtually caused the Shah to fall in my opinion)
5) I don't know why you quotationed "best generals" as if it was some complicated statement. Once the revolutions took place, Khomeini and his crew killed off almost every high ranking general in the military. While you could make the case about some officials being terminated, ie. the head of the secret police under the Shah, it was pretty much random killing of generals for no reason for most of them. And that destruction of high ranking military officials definitly cost em once Iraq opened season on them.
6) That "dictatorship" under the Shah was better than what came after it any day of the week, any week of the month, any month of the year, any year of the decade.

You don't seem to understand the difference between "vastly called for" and "lets kill a retarded guy cuz I'm a cowboy" The other thing that I was conceding to you, which you did not seem to grasp, was that the Islamic faith can be blamed for the death penalty in such instances, even though it is very strict on what can gain the penalty of death.

Ultimately your statement means this:

People in the Mid East can judge whether someone actually is guilty better than America and thus their usage of the death penalty is more justifiable than in America (even though this disregards the fact that we have a stonger court system, our burden of proof is much higher than the Mid East for the death penalty, and the fact that while even if you look at our justice systems flaws it no where compares to the racism/sexism that exists in Mid East courts)

You mean like when the US turned down millions in Katrina aid from Cuba? I suppose that Islam is to blame for that somehow as well eh?

Yay one example of American stupidity in stubbornness. I said we did it just not AS MUCH as others and definitly not when it matters in the bigger picture. And why do you always say stupid shit like that? Honestly I've never seen anyone look at things in such a black/white or so many assumptions in my life. You always have to insert some stupid line about me being "A CAPATALISTIC PIG, RIGHT WING WAR MONGROL PUPPET, BLAMER OF ALL THE WORLDS WEAKNESSES TO ISLAM"!. Can't you just talk about something without inserting some random rhetorical statement?

Hmmm that looks interesting. Now let's travel back in time to see what that statement would have sounded like a hundred and some years ago.

You still don't get it do ya. My assertion isn't that America is JUSTIFIED in being in the Mid East because Islam sucks. My assertion is that in the real world, countries all look out for themselves, so obviously America will be looking to gain wherever it can. The problem is that the the Mid East no longer can compete with anyone in the West so in the real world it keeps getting owned repeately over and over and this is LARGELY because of their own quarrels and the adherence to religion over anything else. If it was up to me however, Iran would have a nationalist leader who kills off religious fundementalists and also gets rid of being influences (not becoming enemies however) with the West.

This post has been edited by Renegade: 05 December 2005 - 06:47 AM

[Dr Lecter]

We aren't living in the crusades anymore. So you don't have any excuse of thinking that just because something is different that its evil. I suppose you know very little about Islam and don't realize how stupid every word you say sounds to people like me whom know alot about the faith.

For a period of time I considering converting to it because the religion made so much more sense than christianity. But in the end I decided not to because I realized that, it isn't that I hate Christianity that I didn't want to be a christian, it was that I don't believe in God, hence I stopped being a "Christian".

Mind you I was 7 at the time so my motives are questionable. Living with Muslims everyday, hell the town I live in is so full of Muslims that I'm almost in the minority for not being one. If you understand the real Islam, behind the right-wing fundimentalist, you'll realise that the fundimentalist Islamics, just like the fundimentalist Christians are a bunch of headcases that don't know their own religion.

Alot of the things that they claim in the Koran (or however the fuck you want to spell it) are open to intepretation, just like the passages in the bible that outlaw homosexuality and other such actions, like eating ham (I'm looking at you Christians out their eating bacon, that is infact WORSE than anything else because there is no interpretation to make of that, it states clearly that you cannot eat that, yet you do and interpret other things that are anything but clear cut as in stone). In my opinion the Bible was contructed on a basis not far from that of Mein Kampf.

Ps, sorry about grammar, spelling mistakes, or misreading of statements, I'm in the middle of doing math courswork.

This post has been edited by Dr Lecter: 05 December 2005 - 03:05 PM