[paracelsus]

Idiot, you seem to have lost the last part of the line.

the Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition

Palpatine is the one who began the war, is controlling both sides and is using the deaths of who knows how many people as a tool to gain power. Not to mention the fact that he is a Sith Lord, an actual practicer of the dark side. I kinda feel stupid even arguing this point.

[KurganX]

The Empire wasn't Evil!!! They just wanted a safe and secure society!!!


I'm kidding of course.

[showmethemoney]

The Empire wasn't Evil!!! They just wanted a safe and secure society!!!
I'm kidding of course.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, the jedi said they want peace, but they spend a lot of time learning combat techniques and "agressive negotiations" (if i need that, i ask for Padme, don't doubt about it) and the rest of the time what do they do? YOGA with YODA?

They are a lot more dangerous than EVIL
They are complete IDIOTS!
(everybody in Coruscant's senate are morons. Let the architects of that amazing planet in charge!)

They only defeate evil with the help of the Ewoks!
(It's like Conan askin for the help of Winnie Poo)
They doesn`t enjoy sex (Menacing the continuity of the stupid midiclorians)
They are bad entertainers (bad replays and jokes)
Not wonder they have a lot of pupils so bored they choose the Sith side.

[KurganX]

Well, the jedi said they want peace, but they spend a lot of time learning combat techniques and "agressive negotiations" (if i need that, i ask for Padme, don't doubt about it) and the rest of the time what do they do? YOGA with YODA?

They are a lot more dangerous than EVIL
They are complete IDIOTS!
(everybody in Coruscant's senate are morons. Let the architects of that amazing planet in charge!)

They only defeate evil with the help of the Ewoks!
(It's like Conan askin for the help of Winnie Poo)
They doesn`t enjoy sex (Menacing the continuity of the stupid midiclorians)
They are bad entertainers (bad replays and jokes)
Not wonder they have a lot of pupils so bored they choose the Sith side.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Jedi can act stupid, yes, but ask yourself... who do you blame more in an unjust or ineffective society... the policemen/soldiers who follow orders, or the leaders who give the orders? The guys who walk the beat every day or the people who sign their checks?

Palpatine started the war, he made the Jedi into soldiers (exceeding their mandate so we're lead to believe). Then while they were out risking their necks for his cause, he framed them and executed them! Now that's evil!

Palpatine was able to take over because yes, either people were corrupt and could be bribed or stupid and could be tricked (like Jar Jar). That or he had them killed. The ones who escaped became the Rebels in the original movies! (Bail Organa, Mon Mothma)

This post has been edited by KurganX: 27 June 2005 - 06:03 AM

[showmethemoney]

There was a time when jedis were not just mindless soldiers.(maybe in the OT?)
But really, who commands Yoda? I think jedis are some kind of independents in the films.
Palpatine started the war, but everybody acomodates so easiliy, don't?
the jedis are suddenly great pilots, generals, etc. Isn't strange for peacefull guys?
And i know Palpatine is evil, nearly the eavilness to let your brother-son-best friend burning alive! (and i don't care anakin is a murderer of chidren, he is gonna be Vader, but Obi is supossed to be the good guy)
In fact, palpatine is the one who saves Anakin, despite Obi-Wan and Mace were better fighters to reclute to de Dark Side. That's a good gesture (a little cheap the prostetics and the chest circuits, i must say). But i think He save him bicouse there were no more jedis so morons to trick left. Luke was no born yet.

[KurganX]

There was a time when jedis were not just mindless soldiers.(maybe in the OT?)
But really, who commands Yoda? I think jedis are some kind of independents in the films.

In the OT the Jedi Order has been destroyed (Obi-Wan doesn't even consider himself a Jedi Knight anymore, from the way he talks! "I was ONCE a Jedi Knight..."

So there really aren't any rules left for them to follow. The Old Republic is dead, replaced by the Empire.

In Episode I it sounds like Chancellor Vallorum commands the Jedi. They are policemen and diplomats ("keepers of the peace"). In ROTS they decide to arrest Palpatine and take over the Senate because it's clear to them that Palpy is a SITH LORD who has used his powers to take over the Senate, the Courts, everything. He's stayed in office long after his terms expired, gained way more power than is normal for the office and has destroyed the checks and balances of the government of the Republic. If they know he's behind the war, then they can also charge him with treason.

I think Mace Windu's decision to kill Palpatine was heavily influenced by the fact that Palpy resisted arrest by killing three Jedi Council members before his eyes.

Palpatine started the war, but everybody acomodates so easiliy, don't?

He's fooled them with his game, and probably his mind influencing powers too. Think how much easier it would be to be an evil dictator if you can manipulate people with mind tricks?

the jedis are suddenly great pilots, generals, etc. Isn't strange for peacefull guys?

I never said the Jedi were afraid to use violence. Police are trained to drive cars, bikes, motorcycles, horses, whatever is needed for the job. They are trained to fight and shoot, because that's what they need in their line of work. Avoiding killing when possible, they still have to be ready to do so to enforce the law and keep the peace. The Jedi are no different. And with only 10,000 Jedi in a galaxy so big they need fast little ships.

Jedi are so rare, they're too valuable to throw away by dying in stupid ways. That's why I was upset that Lucas didn't show the Jedi at least wearing armor or space suites when they went out into danger (that is one area the Clone Wars was great for, showing them wearing the proper gear).

And i know Palpatine is evil, nearly the eavilness to let your brother-son-best friend burning alive! (and i don't care anakin is a murderer of chidren, he is gonna be Vader, but Obi is supossed to be the good guy)

Obi-Wan had three choices... try to save Anakin's burning body (was he going to die anyway? did he deserve to live after all his crimes?), put him out of his misery (quick saber slash to the head, or force push him into the lava pool), or walk away and let nature take its course. Perhaps to Obi-Wan's sense of personal morality and justice, this was the reason he chose to do what he did. Of course in classic comic book villian style, of course Vader doesn't die... and returns even more determined to harm our heroes!

In fact, palpatine is the one who saves Anakin, despite Obi-Wan and Mace were better fighters to reclute to de Dark Side. That's a good gesture (a little cheap the prostetics and the chest circuits, i must say). But i think He save him bicouse there were no more jedis so morons to trick left. Luke was no born yet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right, but then you could say all the misery that Anakin went through was Palpatine's doing... don't get me wrong Anakin CHOSE to follow the evil man, but that was what Palpatine wanted all along. He wanted Anakin to get angry and kill people and burn his bridges.. so that Palpatine would be his only hope and he'd have gained a new henchman. Vader is like his attack dog. He gives him treats every now and then, but keeps him angry and hungry to sic on the people he doesn't want around.

[showmethemoney]

In the OT the Jedi Order has been destroyed (Obi-Wan doesn't even consider himself a Jedi Knight anymore, from the way he talks! "I was ONCE a Jedi Knight..."

Yes , but the there is a movie in the OT named The return of the Jedi. And we learn alot about the jedis thru yoda's lteching and Obi himself.
And I didn't  get the soldier-police ideas.
"I was ONCE a Jedi Knight..."
Knights devoted to the Force instead of god.
knights are not police or soldiers, there is a huge difference. There are knights in Irak? There are Knights in the streets? (actually, maybe some of them qualifies)

So there really aren't any rules left for them to follow. The Old Republic is dead, replaced by the Empire.

So the Jedis have no rules? then they are mercenaries?

In Episode I it sounds like Chancellor Vallorum commands the Jedi. They are policemen and diplomats ("keepers of the peace"). In ROTS they decide to arrest Palpatine and take over the Senate because it's clear to them that Palpy is a SITH LORD who has used his powers to take over the Senate, the Courts, everything. He's stayed in office long after his terms expired, gained way more power than is normal for the office and has destroyed the checks and balances of the government of the Republic. If they know he's behind the war, then they can also charge him with treason.

Policemen? ok with diplomats, but policemen?
If they are, they suck. They arrest Palpy only bicouse he tell Anakin the true.
He wanted to be arrested!
It sounds Vallorum commands the jedi? Then The jedis are free after his death.

I think Mace Windu's decision to kill Palpatine was heavily influenced by the fact that Palpy resisted arrest by killing three Jedi Council members before his eyes.
He's fooled them with his game, and probably his mind influencing powers too. Think how much easier it would be to be an evil dictator if you can manipulate people with mind tricks?

There is never a reason to kill somebody without a trial in a democratic republic. And Mace thougth Anakin was with him, so he was in advantage!
There are a lot of probablys an perhaps in your answers.
I think PROBABLY is not so clear that palpatine used his mind power, no... wait!
I'm sure! It's no clear at all!

I never said the Jedi were afraid to use violence. Police are trained to drive cars, bikes, motorcycles, horses, whatever is needed for the job. They are trained to fight and shoot, because that's what they need in their line of work. Avoiding killing when possible, they still have to be ready to do so to enforce the law and keep the peace. The Jedi are no different. And with only 10,000 Jedi in a galaxy so big they need fast little ships.

Yes, yes, we need tap dancers too... hey! call the jedis!
Just make a police, and an army and a fleet and let the Jedis be Jedis!

I recommend to you the short fan film Stormtroopers- C.O.P.S.

Jedi are so rare, they're too valuable to throw away by dying in stupid ways. That's why I was upset that Lucas didn't show the Jedi at least wearing armor or space suites when they went out into danger (that is one area the Clone Wars was great for, showing them wearing the proper gear).

Exactly! But in the PT they do risky stupid things all the time.

Obi-Wan had three choices... try to save Anakin's burning body (was he going to die anyway? did he deserve to live after all his crimes?), put him out of his misery (quick saber slash to the head, or force push him into the lava pool), or walk away and let nature take its course. Perhaps to Obi-Wan's sense of personal morality and justice, this was the reason he chose to do what he did. Of course in classic comic book villian style, of course Vader doesn't die... and returns even more determined to harm our heroes!

He deserve to live! Not bicouse he deserve it, but bicouse it`s justice! he must pay
and have an oportunity to be redeemed! (he do that eventually)
Let Nature? The jedis live in coruscant! The less natural place in the galaxy!
Just save your friend! Judge him in a fair trail ! Like Jedis do! Be a Jedi...

Right, but then you could say all the misery that Anakin went through was Palpatine's doing... don't get me wrong Anakin CHOSE to follow the evil man, but that was what Palpatine wanted all along. He wanted Anakin to get angry and kill people and burn  his bridges.. so that Palpatine would be his only hope and he'd have gained a new henchman. Vader is like his attack dog. He gives him treats every now and then, but keeps him angry and hungry to sic on the people he doesn't want around.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Anakin choose? Anakin is a stupid kid in the film! And don't you say palpy use mental powers? Then he is a victim.
But there is not mental powers but bad writing.
And then Palpy should look for the best dog, not that defeated and mutilated Anakin.

jaja this can take an eternity jajaja

This post has been edited by showmethemoney: 30 June 2005 - 02:35 AM

[JW Wells]

In Episode I it sounds like Chancellor Vallorum commands the Jedi.

If this is true, the Jedi would then be subject to Palpatine, who is duly named Supreme Chancellor after the Senate voted no-confidence in Valorum.

Which means that Mace Windu marching into Palpatine's office with a party of goons carrying ignited lightsabers is nothing less than a coup d'etat. Palpatine's "are you threatening me, master Jedi?" line can be read as the outraged reaction of an elected leader to thugs storming his office to remove him in a scene that seems like something out of a banana republic.

Windu preparing to murder Palpatine is just the icing on the cake. Annakin shouting that summary execution is "not the Jedi way" is bitter irony. By this point in the movie, it's clear that the "Jedi Way" is something the Jedi feel free to disregard whenever it proves expedient.